Liuto Moderno

[Jim Garber]

I have been listening to the old recordings of Raffaele Calace and was wondering if anyone nowadays is carrying on his tradition of playing the liuto moderno.

In addition, what makers are making them. Does Calace?

Jim

[Bob A]

And who might have a photo of one of these rare birds? Measurements, scale info, etc?

[Jacob]

From Spruce Tree Music: (http://www.sprucetreemusic.com/gallery.html)
Vinaccia Brothers Liuto Moderno (http://www.sprucetreemusic.com/liutomoderno.jpg) 1904
Large size instrument by the originators of the Neapolitan style mandolin, 23 curly maple ribs, rosewood neck and fingerboard, 22 1/2" scale, five double courses tuned C-G-D-A-E one octave below the mandolin. This instrument was made for Samuel Adelstein of San Francisco, an important figure in the history of the mandolin orchestra. Shown next to standard bowl style mandolin.
Back of instrument. (http://www.sprucetreemusic.com/liutomodernoba.jpg)

[Jacob]

Liuto moderno (http://village.infoweb.ne.jp/~ikegaku/Ochiai%20luito.htm) currently offered by Ochiai (http://village.infoweb.ne.jp/~ikegaku/Ochiai%20mandolin.htm).

[Jacob]

Five-course mandocellos (http://www.musikalia.it/en/catalogue/instruments_list.asp?cat=4) by Musikalia. (http://www.musikalia.it/en/english.htm)

[Jim Garber]

Five-course mandocellos (http://www.musikalia.it/en/catalogue/instruments_list.asp?cat=4) by Musikalia. (http://www.musikalia.it/en/english.htm)
Those look like 4 course ones. Are they available with 5 courses and the proper scale?

Jim

[Arto]

Liuteria Calace lists two liuti cantabili, models Classico A (41 fluted ribs) and Classico B (25 unfluted ribs). The prices are same for these and the corresponding 4-course mandocellos, so I have thougt they are identical except the number of strings (and probably fretboard width?).

greetings, Arto

PS: Jim, where did you find those old Raffaele Calace recordings? I have never understood why they are not widely available in CD format. There must be some millions classical mandolinists in the world (well, of course not all professionals ;-) and I´d suppose every one of them would like to have all available recording by R.C.

[Jim Garber]

The closest I can come across the the 5-course citterns made by Stephen Sobell (http://www.sobellinstruments.com/Cittern_OctaveMandolin.htm). The one on that page has a 20 inch scale and the lower course is meant ot be tuned to D.

I am also curious as to who (if anyone) is playing liuto as a solo instrument. Are they used in many orchestras or ensembles these days?

I see that someone in Alex's orchestra (http://www.mandolineorkest.nl/informatie/eninformatie02.htm) plays one by Silvestri. Alex terms it a "liuto cantbile". Is there any difference between that and a liuto moderno?

Jim

[Jim Garber]

Looks like Gabriele Pandini has made a liuto. Here is a quartet of Pandini instruments.

Jim

[Jacob]

Five-course mandocellos (http://www.musikalia.it/en/catalogue/instruments_list.asp?cat=4) by Musikalia. (http://www.musikalia.it/en/english.htm)
Those look like 4 course ones. Are they available with 5 courses and the proper scale?
Click on the photos, or lack thereof, for the instrument links.

[Jim Garber]

Jacob:
There is no mention of 5-course instruments. I enlarged all the photos and they only show 4-course.

Jim

[Jacob]

In the middle of the page for each instrument under Other is this data:
Strings: 4 o 5 doppie (4 or 5 double) - steel
Diapason: cm. 58 (scale length)

[Jim Garber]

Sorry, Jason, I didn't scroll down to see the particulars -- the site is a little confusing in that way. The scale length sounds about right tho.

Thanks
Jim

[Eugene]

I see that someone in Alex's orchestra (http://www.mandolineorkest.nl/informatie/eninformatie02.htm) plays one by Silvestri. Alex terms it a "liuto cantbile". Is there any difference between that and a liuto moderno?
Nope. #Ugo Orlandi also plays quite a bit of liuto cantabile. #Orlandi's may be most prominent on the Citta de Brescia mandolin orchestra's "Mandolin and Japan" CD. #There is even an unaccompanied solo on this one: Calace's IX preludio, op. 110.

Where did you find that Pandini image, Jim?

[Eugene]

PS: The Vinaccia pictured at Spruce Tree that was made for Adelstein used to be owned by Paul Ruppa. It, of course, was sold to a Japanese collector.

[Arto]

The Pandini mandolin family looks wonderful!

Eugene, do you know any source for the "Mandolin Japan" CD you mentioned? I have wanted for a long time to hear how Calace´s solo preludes for liuto would sound like. Amazon.de lists this CD as not available, and .com and .co.uk don´t know it at all.

Thanks, Arto

[Eugene]

FYI, back when the Calace shop printed literature to promote sales, they said:

Liuti cantabili: the type are the some of mandoloncello's one, but with 10 strings tuned E,A,D,G,C. #Only the type Classico A have a different design of the body to have 15 frets out of body.

As Arto says, they are only available in Classico A & B styles, but the catalog I have lists these large instruments as having #(A) 36 ribs of fluted maple and (B) 25 ribs of maple or rosewood. #Their scale is listed as 61 cm (24").

In the most famous image of Maestro Raffaele himself, he's sporting liuto. #Check it out:
http://www.ahlert-schwab.de/Bilder/calace.jpg
I think this image is also reproduced in Sparks's text.

I got my recording of "Mandolin & Japan" from the US's Amazon.com. #I wouldn't be surprised if they're out. #When such stuff happens, I search Berkshire Record Outlet (http://www.berkshirerecordoutlet.com/). #Every once in a great while, they come through with the goods.

[Eugene]

Here's another worth seeing:
http://www.alisonstephens.com/calace.jpg

[Jim Garber]

Here's another worth seeing:
Eugene:
This one looks great. I assume from the name of this file that this is a Calace liuto. Any more details? When was it made? I assume that Ali would know since she is in the photo.

Jim

[Eugene]

The other character pictured is grandson Raffaele Jr. #The caption at Ali's site labels this as "Raffaele Calace's liuto." #I'm not certain if this refers to Raffaele Sr. or Jr. The caption would imply Sr. as it seems to differentiate the current proprietor with "Jnr." #If Sr., it is certainly a more recent piece than the one he's pictured with a couple entries up. #Perhaps Ali will chime in and elucidate our pondering.

[Alex Timmerman]

Hi,


It´s Raffaele Sr.´s own Liuto cantabile (also named Liuto moderno) and this particular example shows the final development of the type.

Cheers,

Alex

[RSW]

I've seen that instrument at Calace Jr.'s place and it is indeed the one you can hear on the recording made in Japan. Very nice instrument, I only wish that they could build more of them with as much skill and care.

[Arto]

The picture looks like Calace´s liuto would have a radiused fretboard. Does it?

[Alex Timmerman]

Yes Arto, it does.


Best,

Alex

[Eugene]

There's a great image of Raffaele Sr. at a recording session in Japan seated with the very liuto pictured above in his lap; Josephine Heidenreich is seated alongside at a piano. "Tokyo- 15-1-25" is written in ink at the bottom. For those with the CD on hand, the image is reproduced in the liner notes of Mandolin & Japan.

[vkioulaphides]

With a scale of 58 cm., it is doubtful (to me, at least) that the liuti moderni of Musikalia would have much punch in the low C-course— a troublesome area for most instruments, anyhow. And just how thick should those strings have to be, in order to resonate fully? Navy-issue cabletows would hardly do the job...

Or, as Musikalia implicitly recommends, the instrument would work optimally with "octave mandolin" tuning; 58 cm. scale should work out just fine for that. I just doubt the practical, actual aural effect of stringing these creatures CGDAE.

Or, as I have mused on occasion, one could create a hybrid, ehm... let's call it mandolaccia? (The Italian ending signifies a cheapening effect, a degree of crassness, e.g. as barcaccia is something far less elegant than a real "boat" or "ship".) So, how about a moderately sized mando(lon)cello body, strung (with guitar strings) to EADG, double courses? It would, if nothing else, be easier to play in fourths, no? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Eugene]

Such a thing would beg the question, "Why not play a guitar, or perhaps even the lowest four courses of a twelve-string guitar in unisons?" Of course, drop these four pitches yet another octave and you have the bass guitar, which I think tends to be thin-voiced in most of its acoustic incarnations. Easily remedied with a bit o' artificial aural augmentation by virtue of solid hardwood bodies, magnetic coils, and a touch of electricity.

[vkioulaphides]

True...

[Jim Garber]

Another variation is the cello guitar (http://www.earnestinstruments.com/bigred.html) made by my friend Joel Eckhaus. I have played one of his earlier ones and they are incredible in tone production.

As to my interest in the liuto that started this thread. I would love to play an actual one and see how they compare in playability as a solo instrument compared to a mandocello which I find unwieldy.

Jim

[vkioulaphides]

But, Jim, the unwieldiness of the mandoloncello IS due to the scale/tuning, no? In other words, in what way would the liuto be more comfortable to play? Hence my argument of 4ths vs. 5ths which, to my understanding, is the crux of the issue. Please enlighten my foggy mind...

Nice instrument you posted! Wow... If only it came with a bowl... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif (my indirect answer to Eugene)

[Alex Timmerman]

Hello Victor,

It did come down to us. The Vinaccia firm made a plectrum played four string bowl-back tenor kind of a Mandoloncello. That was way back in the last years of the 19th century.


Many greetings,

Alex

[vkioulaphides]

Hello to you, Alex!

I hope your time in Italy was a pleasant one. As for the Vinaccia instrument you mention... well, I am glad not to be alone in my madness! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Best regards,

Victor

P.S. After simmering in my head for a while, Sebastiaan's piece is really boiling by now! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Alex Timmerman]

Hello Victor,


My Italy ´vacation´ was great; I had a really nice time in Arpino and again found interesting things (tools, moulds and templates, etc) in the Embergher-Cerrone museum. Also many things to think about that hopefully (when solved...) give more understanding about why and how certain things concerning the Embergher Mandolin were made (as they are made).
I hope it will be possible to come very close to the actual building process at the time and that eventually this knowledge will lead to a revival of building mandolins in the true style and sound (of course) of the Embergher mandolin.


Great to know that Sebastiaan´s piece is on the way. I (and I know he is) look very much forward to see and hear it!

As for Sebastiaan; he is doing fine in Italy and for those who are interested to go to this EGMA 2004 European Guitar and Mandolin Symposium in Trossingen (Germany), it´s perhaps nice to know that Sebastiaan will give a concert during the Symposium.
It is scheduled for the Friday, the 1st October and - together with the pianist Wilhelm Hellweg (known also as a duo partner of the guitarist Pepe Romero) - Sebastiaan will perform a programme that among other compositions includes Ranieri´s "Souvernir de Varsovie", Paganini´s "Adagio Cantabile" and the beautiful "Concerto" No. 1, Op.113 for Mandolin and Piano by Raffaele Calace.

The Concert takes place at 20.00 hours in the Concert Hall of the Bundesakademie.

All very exciting!


Many Greetings,

Alex

PS. Here is a photo of both musicians during a concert in Zwolle.

[Eugene]

You can really read the satisfaction with the performance on the accompanist's face. I wish I could have heard it!

[Alex Timmerman]

Indeed it was a great performance, Eugene!

And I am happy to have had the state of mind at that particular moment to take a photo as a (visual) remembrance, especially since it wasn´t recorded.

By the way, I think one of new The Consort CD´s I send you came via Norman Levine´s Plucked String, Inc. in the hands of Alison Stephens. Could that be the case? (I just wondered...)
Anyway, Alison wrote a wonderful review about it in Mandolin Quarterly.

For those interested it is printed in it´s entirety at on of the new web-pages at The Consort website:
For a fast link from here, just click on this sentence. (http://www.mandolineorkest.nl/samples/ensamples04.htm)


Best,

Alex

[Eugene]

That must be the copy I forwarded to Terry Pender, editor of MQ. I'm very glad something came of it. Dr. Pender never got back to me to even tell me if he had received the CD.

[Alex Timmerman]

Strange how things can go...

But many thanks Eugene!

[Irénée]

Hello all !...

! Has Somebody (because I am seeking strongly for…) the Liuto Cantabile method written by Raffaele Calace

...And (may be, why not) other from him (or other such as: "The Bickford Method for Mando-cello" in 3 volumes) for Mandocello please ?

Thank you very much by advance !

[Eugene]

For Calace's method, check out section 15 at the bottom of this page: http://www.federmandolino.it/wp/spartiti-music-scores/

This thread might help regarding the Bickford: https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/threads/146610-New-Bickford-Mando-cello-Method

[Jim Imhoff]

I do not see much mention of my teacher, Fabio Giudice in this thread: He is an expert in both Calace and liuto cantabile, and has recorded Calace's liuto works. He might have answers to many of the questions raised here, and I will have a lesson with him in the next couple weeks; what would you like to ask?
And yes, Jim, the mandocello is a bit unwieldy, but well worth the effort; I will never be more than an intermediate level, I started too late in life and don't have the finger strength or speed of the really good players, but there is plenty of accessible literature for plucked solo MC, (not just Bach Suites or bowed cello works) as well as typical mandolin orchestra parts.

[Eugene]

I've only recently acquired and enjoyed Fabio's solo Calace CD. I've had the Calace recording he did with Trio Musica Moderna for many years.

[Jim Garber]

Just for everyone's information: this is a resurrected thread from 2004—over 16 years ago.

[Eugene]

Yes. I noticed.

[Jim Garber]

I figured you did but not sure about some others. People who don’t notice might get annoyed when some folks who are no longer posting here might ignore their comments from the future. :)

[Frankdolin]

Jim, at least you know what you were doing 16 years ago.:mandosmiley:

[Jim Imhoff]

Oh.....
I need to look at the dates; but when the Cafe lists a new post, I sometimes jump in as if the discussion is ongoing. Now I don't know exactly where and when I got into this one! It's like the older Simpsons episodes where Donald Trump became president--as a joke.
All that aside, it looks like Irenee from Paris re-started, looking for Calace's Method. Irenee, you mention Bickford's Mandocello Method which is easily available from Benjamin Ash in a modern bass clef edition in case you want that. We used it at CMSA, he is quite happy to have it used.
I don't know as much about Caklace's method, but Fabio would almost certainly have it--I'll ask if you're still looking--after 2 or 3 days, not 16 years!
(Sorry, Jim Garber!)

[Eugene]

Conveniently enough, after going public domain, all the Calace works are posted to the page I shared, including the liuto method.

[Jim Garber]

Oh.....
I need to look at the dates; but when the Cafe lists a new post, I sometimes jump in as if the discussion is ongoing.

No, I do the same thing, Jim. That is why I posted in red. No need for apology at all. Some folks mention that they are bumping a thread but some don't realize it. Nothing terrible.

It is interesting looking back in time. Back then there was an amazing group of classical players who have since faded from these forums or even from this earth, sadly enough. I learned so much about the instrument and music from these folks and I thank, once again, Scott and his team from making this place available for all that to happen. The archives here are seriously rich in some valuable knowledge.