Jazz tone

[Brad Weiss]

What mandolins really offer a really distinctive jazz sound? I'm thinking of the round warmth of a great archtop guitar, or even the complexity of the Macafferi style guitar. #I ask because (well, MAS aside...) it seems to me that some of the great jazzers use variations on an F5 (Stiernberg, Sims of Harmonious Wail, even Jethro had Ted's Washburn - to say nothing of M Marhsall and J Reischman, though perhaps their Loars can play anything). #I've also noticed that choro as played in Brazil can have a highly focused sound, yet is played on a round-hole bandolino. #I'm sure the player makes the instrument in most cases, but what are some really solid jazz axes out there??

[Ted Eschliman]

I might as well get my “blog” out of the way on this; it’s common knowledge I’ve got some pretty strong convictions on this. (Even the death threats haven’t swayed me much…)
Three things I see, the first being harmonic complexity, verses “projection.” It’s not only “warmth,” although that is definitely the biggest part. It’s a distinctive sonic character hard to put in words, other than there’s a lot of dimension to the sound. It has a potentially wide range of timbre, depending on how loud it’s picked, or where you are on the fingerboard, yet retain a “smoothness” from fret to fret, from string to string.
The second is related to this, the issue of what someone earlier called the “Jethro” keys, or horn keys. (Lots of flat keys!) Because you drift in and out of multiple key centers in jazz, you do a lot of closed position fingering, much less “drone” in the open strings. This demands an instrument that is not only easy to fret, but easy to find the “sweet spot” between the fret, immediately (arguably, larger frets). No shortcuts here; if the action is responsive, the chord vocabulary is clear and defined for the listener, even in linear (melodic) playing.
The third is sustain. You aren’t expected to cut across banjo and guitar (or some other acoustic abomination), and throw the sound to the back of the room, so you don’t need the percussive quality of a good BG instrument. It’s a Buffet clarinet, not a Zildjian Hihat cymbal. The “line” becomes more of a priority than the articulation.
I could go into my laundry list of preferred models and brands, but I don’t want to come across as mercenary (disclaimer: I AM a dealer…), but if it has impeccable comfort and playability, balance from string to string, and a warmth that need not shatter glass, it’s going to be an excellent jazz instrument.

[Charlie Ayers]

I recently had the pleasure of spending a week with the blonde F5 shown on Steve Holst's website (http://www.pacinfo.com/~sholst/), and I felt it had all those attributes mentioned by Ted. I'm not an advanced or even intermediate jazz mandolinist, but I've played a lot of mandolins. Like the Holst archtop guitar I own, the F5 was beautifully built, and played great.

Charlie

[Dave Caulkins]

Hmmm...

You know, this is tough...

You have the stories of Coltrane playing plastic saxes because he hocked his real one for junk.... (and being hailed as a progressive genius by the critical press morons who didn't know what was going on).

But then again, he always got the real one back...

I consider jazz to be my main arena of focus these days, despite the fact that, in Vermont, acoustic jazzers are not common (and thus I play with a folk-rock group). I own an early 80s Flatiron A52, which I first attempted jazz on - and yeah it works well - but its definately more BG at heart. My Rigel A+ is a jazz axe to me - it just doesn't sound right playing straight Monroe licks.

My first foray into Jazz was on electric guitar and I used a Gibson ES-335 primarily, but I also used a Strat (a loner while my Gibby had some repairs). My style didn't really change between countless instruments, save where it was dictated by necessity of style. Yeah, it all sounded different. Given my druthers on electric jazz guitar, I would probably choose my Rickenbacker 360 above any of my other axes I've owned (my old Hamer Studio running a close second). I never owned a proper jazz-box (doubt I ever will with the damn case of MAS I have). But these are electric instruments (when I play acoustic jazz guitar these days I use an Ovation Legend... I guess because of the 'pseudo-electric' feel to the neck).

I'm babbling... but I guess what it comes down to is how you perceive the instrument you play - because you, in the end, have to make it sound like jazz (duh!). If it doesn't feel right, you aren't gonna make the right noise. It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing?

Forever sorry about the lack of concise thought,

Dave

[mandobsessed]

My thoughts as an occasional jazz dabbler may or may not be of value. I find that the instrument makes less difference than picking technique. As long as your instrument sounds good both quiet and loud it should be good.

ps. Dave, I like the Leopold quote in your sig. The only thing wron with Aldo Leopold in my mind is that he didn't play mando.

[Unseen122]

Pick also has to do with it when i play Jazz I use a thicker pick (I use Dawg picks or Clayto 1.26 Pletrum but it's up to you) it gives the tone more warmth and tone complexity. Just my 2 cents. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[mikeomando]

Um, I hate to be a stickler, but I don't think Coltrane ever pawned his sax for junk. Now Charlie Parker, he was known for playing whatever sax he could get his hands on for a session, including a plastic one. (Both of them are my heros).
Back on the subject, I believe there is a jazz tone. Less agressive/percussive pick attack than, say, a rock and roller. No question more closed position playing, less ringing open notes. In terms of tone, you can play dark or light and still find a jazz sound. Does the axe matter? Of course it does. But the player matters more. People still listen to Charlie Parker playing that ###### plastic sax.

[mikeomando]

You can't use the word ######? It's not that bad a word...

[mandocrucian]

Regarding the plastic saxaphone, it's probably Ornette Coleman (http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=11:6ht67ui0h0j3~T1) who you are thinking of. #You might want to read this review of his first album, Something Else (http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:rtkzikbhbb39~T1).

Niles Hokkanen

[Ted Eschliman]

Charlie Parker's plastic sax (http://www.jazzbrat.com/templates/jpage.php?u_pageid=91) "ended up being worth something after all; in 1994 it sold at an auction for $150,000 to the mayor of Kansas City..."

Hmm...
Now, what did the latest high profile Loar go for?

[Dave Caulkins]

Oops...

I remembered the story from the Miles Davis biography... Furthermore, I remembered it wrong. Sorry for any confusion.

<<Hangs head in Shame>>

Dave

[dwc]

I know this post has been dormant, but I just reread it and had to comment on the whole plastic sax thing. I don't think Coltrane played a plastic sax, but I know for a fact Parker did. You can here it on a disc called The Quintet, Live at Massey hall, where he plays with Roach, Mingus, Powell, and I believ Gillespie, but I would have to check the linears. Coleman also dabbled in playing a plastic in the sixties, although I cannot recall which albums. BTW I personally play a vintage Martin, but a Rigel to me sounds like a quentisential jazz mando, if such a thing can exist. I would play one in a heatbeat if I could afford, especially, the CT-110.

[steve in tampa]

I started my music career as a cornet/trumpet player. Early on I understood the tonal differences between the two, and the different types of jazz approaches to each. Schooled in concert/classical/baroque, I found the Lab Band to my liking, because it offered more opportunity to be heard as an individual.

As I get further along with this mando thing after years of all types of guitar, some of the learnings from my school days are coming back due to the nature of the music material.

I jam with several different people who play guitar in several different styles, and different types of music. To accompany different styles makes me think of golf in the sense that there is a bag full of clubs (different types of mandos), and different approaches to the music (address, backswing, follow through, etc).

I do aspire to be a better mando player than I am a golfer!

For jazz, I really like my Ovation MM68, and my '04 MK Dragonfly is starting to get some color to the tone that is nice. Just ordered a used 2 point jap oval hole. Have in mind some of my wife's original material for that one.