How long did it take you to get a song copyrighted?

[SnapCut]

I mailed in a song that I wrote with the form and a moneyorder on Nov. 6th and I'm still waiting to hear from them :(
My teacher told me that when her husband sends songs in he hears back in like 2 weeks. I have this one book on song writing that says it could take 8 months or longer.
How long does it take you people to hear back from them?

[EdSherry]

Officially, your material is copyrighted as soon as you create it. What you're talking about is registering your copyright with the Copyright Office. I am aware that that process takes some time, though I'm not familar with the current time lag. But once you've sent your material off to them (with the fee), as a legal matter, there's no reason to be concerned about how long it takes for them to respond.

[MikeEdgerton]

There have been quite a few discussions about copyrighting songs in the past. This (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/search.php?query=copyright&exactname=0&starteronly=0&forumchoice%5B%5D=&prefixchoice%5B%5D=&childforums=1&titleonly=1&searchdate=0&beforeafter=after&do=process) search shows several. This is an area where there is a ton of misinformation.

[Stephanie Reiser]

When I send a novel in for copywrite, it takes about three months.
I don't know if the same can be said for songs.

[ApK]

When I send a novel in for copywrite, it takes about three months.,

Maybe it takes that long to get there because the address is misspelled?

Sorry, just ribbing from a fellow spelling-challenged righter. ;)

ApK

[opie wan]

I called the copyright office because I've been waiting on the forms to come back... I like to put the numbers in with BMI and such before I release a CD. According to the message I got the time lag is now up to a year. I personally think this is completely bogus but such is the nature of your government working for you:)) .

Just keep a record of the songs you send in. Write the names of the songs on the checks, send them via registered mail and keep the receipts, and it would be smart to keep a little log so you don't lose track of what songs you sent in... etc.

[TomTyrrell]

The only real reason you need the Registered Copyright is so you can sue somebody for infringement. It is really not much more than an official date stamp.

The last couple I sent in took over 3 months but the official date was the date on my application.

[des mando]

i thought all you had to do was mail it to yourself and not open the letter, the date on postmark was provenance of when it was written

[TomTyrrell]

i thought all you had to do was mail it to yourself and not open the letter, the date on postmark was provenance of when it was written

Called the "Poor man's copyright". Not worth the stamp on the envelope.

Copyright happens when you publish or when you register. Mailing something to yourself does neither.

[ApK]

Called the "Poor man's copyright". Not worth the stamp on the envelope.

Copyright happens when you publish or when you register. Mailing something to yourself does neither.


Copyright happens the moment you put your original copyrightable material in a tangible form.
Publication has not been a factor since the laws were revised in, I think, the '70s.

www.copyright.gov has loads of good (and officially correct) info.

Yes, that mail it to yourself thing has no legal value of any kind in the US, but I wonder if it helps in anyway in other countries?

ApK

[TomTyrrell]

Copyright happens the moment you put your original copyrightable material in a tangible form.
Publication has not been a factor since the laws were revised in, I think, the '70s.

True in fact. Not in reality.

You have to be able to prove when you created it. Just writing a date on the page or saving a file to your computer isn't proof. Publication or registration would give you a provable date. If you don't want to do either of those having a Notary Public apply a seal with a date would be better than nothing.

The "send yourself a letter" trick is no good because you can just send yourself a blank piece of paper in a very lightly sealed envelope then add the contents and fully seal the envelope at any later time.

[Tim2723]

I've never written anything that anyone wanted to steal.

[ApK]

True in fact. Not in reality.

You have to be able to prove when you created it.

You certainly want to register any copyright you may ever want to defend, true enough, but thankfully, it's true in reality more often than not. You only have to prove it if someone disputes it. The majority dealings in copyright licensing are more along the lines of "I want to license your material." "OK, write me a check." "Done, bye."

I've had several photos and written pieces used that way.

It's usually only when someone infringes or claims infringement that the courts and proof need to come into it.

Even with music I'm not sure if the PROs require registration of the material you submit to their catalogs. I thought they did, but I was looking on BMI's website last night and was surprised that I couldn't find mention of it.

Why is this worth mentioning in this thread? Because: The more people understand that the copyright IS automatic and does NOT require registration or publication or anything else, the more people may show a little consideration to the copyright holders, get proper permission to use stuff and not infringe on stuff thinking that because it wasn't registered that it was ok.
If people have correct information and respect the law and others people's rights, then we can keep the courts and lawyers out of our bid'ness except in the case of genuine cheats and thieves.

ApK

[Patrick Sylvest]

It takes two or three months to get the paperwork back on copyrighted songs/sound recordings.

I believe it's a good idea to register your stuff with the copyright office. It's a simple and not overly expensive way to protect your rights. I like to submit compliations to keep the cost down.

[TomTyrrell]

It's usually only when someone infringes or claims infringement that the courts and proof need to come into it.

ApK

Actually, the only reason to register a copyright is so you can take an infringer to court. People know when they are copying somebody else's stuff.
Honest people don't copy other people's stuff.

[viv]

mike...thanks SO much for the link!

[ApK]

Actually, the only reason to register a copyright is so you can take an infringer to court. People know when they are copying somebody else's stuff.
Honest people don't copy other people's stuff.

I'm allowing that SOME honest people might ask for proof that you hold the copyright before entering a license agreement with you. :)
(although, because even after you register you are free to give away all your rights, it really proves nothing on it's own.)

[Capt. E]

It is a very good idea to make a recording of work you would like to copyright before playing it publicly. The recording is definitive "proof" that it is yours. In photography, simply marking the print is sufficient (of course there you have a negative or digital record). You don't have to formally "copyright" it. Get a book on copyright law for artists. It can be complicated.

[ApK]

It is a very good idea to make a recording of work you would like to copyright before playing it publicly. The recording is definitive "proof" that it is yours. In photography, simply marking the print is sufficient (of course there you have a negative or digital record). You don't have to formally "copyright" it. Get a book on copyright law for artists. It can be complicated.

Huh? So if I run home and record a song I hear at a bar tonight that's proof it's mine?

And again, it's "formally copyrighted" the moment you create it, with full rights and protection under the law (except for the right to sue over it in US courts). Even the marking is no longer required (though obviously a REALLY good idea if you want anyone to know about it.)
Registration is different. I keep restating this not for the people who intentionally misuse the terms considering the difference to be academic, but for any others who don't know and want to understand.

Consulting an intellectual property lawyer is the best bet if you have something important riding on this stuff.

[TomTyrrell]

If you think you might want to sell, as opposed to renting, your song you really need to have a registered copyright. The folks who buy songs really buy copyrights and they want something official.

[Alex Orr]

Copyright happens the moment you put your original copyrightable material in a tangible form.
Publication has not been a factor since the laws were revised in, I think, the '70s.

www.copyright.gov has loads of good (and officially correct) info.

Yes, that mail it to yourself thing has no legal value of any kind in the US, but I wonder if it helps in anyway in other countries?

ApK
He's right. I just took a class in copyright law this summer, so it's still sort've fresh in my mind ;)

[TomTyrrell]

The key points from the US Copyright Office are below. Just ask yourself one thing. If you play your new unpublished, unregistered song at a Jam and I record it. Are you sure I won't get to the Copyright Office before you do and get myself a registered copyright of your song? (Assume I'm not stupid enough to forget to erase my recording.)

So file those copyrights! And don't steal other people's work.

Selected quotes from the Copyright Office:

"No publication or registration or other action in the Copyright Office is required to secure copyright. There are, however, certain definite advantages to registration.


Publication is no longer the key to obtaining federal copyright as it was under the Copyright Act of 1909. However, publication remains important to copyright owners.

Publication is an important concept in the copyright law for several reasons:
• Works that are published in the United States are subject to mandatory deposit with the Library of Congress.
• Publication of a work can affect the limitations on the exclusive rights of the copyright owner that are set forth in sections 107 through 121 of the law.
• The year of publication may determine the duration of copyright protection for anonymous and pseudonymous works (when the author’s identity is not revealed in the records of the Copyright Office) and for works made for hire.
• Deposit requirements for registration of published works differ from those for registration of unpublished works.
• When a work is published, it may bear a notice of copyright to identify the year of publication and the name of the copyright owner and to inform the public that the work is protected by copyright.


In general, copyright registration is a legal formality intended to make a public record of the basic facts of a particular copyright.
However, registration is not a condition of copyright protection. Even though registration is not a requirement for protection, the copyright law provides several inducements or advantages to encourage copyright owners to make registration.
Among these advantages are the following:
• Registration establishes a public record of the copyright claim.
• Before an infringement suit may be filed in court, registration is necessary for works of U. S. origin.
• If made before or within five years of publication, registration will establish prima facie evidence in court of the validity of the copyright and of the facts stated in the certificate.
• If registration is made within three months after publication of the work or prior to an infringement of the work, statutory damages and attorney’s fees will be available to the copyright owner in court actions. Otherwise, only an award of actual damages and profits is available to the copyright owner.
• Registration allows the owner of the copyright to record the registration with the U. S. Customs Service for protection against the importation of infringing copies."

[ApK]

Here's something else to consider in this day of personal websites and DIY e-commerce.
What does "published" mean?
From the same page Tom cited:
---
“Publication” is the distribution of copies or phonorecords of a work to the public by sale or other transfer of ownership, or by rental, lease, or lending. The offering to distribute copies or phonorecords to a group of persons for purposes of further distribution, public performance, or public display constitutes publication. A public performance or display of a work does not of itself constitute publication.
[. . .]
it is clear that any form of dissemination in which the material object does not change hands, for example, performances or displays on television, is not a publication no matter how many people are exposed to the work. However, when copies or phonorecords are offered for sale or lease to a group of wholesalers, broadcasters, or motion picture theaters, publication does take place if the purpose is further distribution, public performance, or public display.
---

A little confusing when stuff like digital song distribution gets into it, it seems.

ApK

[Alex Orr]

it is clear that any form of dissemination in which the material object does not change hands, for example, performances or displays on television, is not a publication no matter how many people are exposed to the work.
No, actually it is. For example, playing a song you wrote on youtube IS an act of publication, even if no one watches your vid. Again, I could email my copyright law professor, but I specifically remember that example.

[ApK]

No, actually it is. For example, playing a song you wrote on youtube IS an act of publication, even if no one watches your vid. Again, I could email my copyright law professor, but I specifically remember that example.

The words you cited above are not mine, they are from the Copyright office website.

If your prof is sure youtube counts as publication, it maybe because youtube is a third party who is offering works for public performance. As opposed to, say, putting it on your OWN website for public display. That's how I read it anyway.

[SnapCut]

Well March 6th was the 4 month mark and I still have gotten anything back from the copyright office :(
Don't any of you copyright your songs and if so does it take this long or longer for you?

[Alex Orr]

The words you cited above are not mine, they are from the Copyright office website.

If your prof is sure youtube counts as publication, it maybe because youtube is a third party who is offering works for public performance. As opposed to, say, putting it on your OWN website for public display. That's how I read it anyway.
I think the way it works is that if I put something on youtube, then I must have recorded it. Furthermore, at the very least, it has to have been composed by the date that it was posted on youtube. Thus, you have recorded something in a tangible format (archived video) and you have a date that roughly corresponds to when that recording was made. Furthermore, the digital artifact actually does change hands. You have given it to youtube.

(True...you could upload a really old analog film of you playing an original piece, but at it's youngest, it must have existed when the video was posted).

[8ch(pl)]

Something interesting came up recently on my favorite Radio Show, "CBC Weekend Morning", broadcast from Halifax. There was a request to play Stan Roger's song, "The idiot", one of his lesser known . After it was played the show's host, Stan Carew, told us that he realised it was exactly the same as the song that goes "I want to be in the cavalry when they send me off to war,..." Stan said that he contacted the Artist of this piece and told them, they now credit Stan Rogers with the tune.

Stan Rogers was a well loved artistand songwriter, here in Nova Scotia, who was killed in an aircraft fire at the Cincinnati airport in trhe early 80's.