What Key???

[djweiss]

I'm trying to work out some breaks for a couple of standards, Honeysuckle Rose (key of F) and Stomping at the Savoy (key of D), and I'm having a hard time figuring out what to do in the B part of each song...

I know the chords, just not sure if I can stay in any one key for the B part, or if the tonal center is always changing...?

Thoughts and suggestions welcomed....

Thanks,
Darren

[Don Stiernberg]

Hi Darren!

Honeysuckle Rose is normally done in F. One way to think of the bridge is that it stays in F, starting on F7, then moving to Bb which is the IV of F, then to G7(a dominant two sound), then C7 which is the V of F. So, except for the G7(II7), you have a I-IV-V progression in F. Between that and
a bunch of G7 ideas you may have plenty of vocabulary for that bridge.

Similarly, the bridge of Stompin' at the Savoy moves conventionally also if you extract the wacky half-step device that's in there. From the home base of D we go to G, chord IV. Then up a half-step, and back. Next up is another fourth movement from G to C, followed by the half step trick. From C we go to(you guessed it) F, followed by (you guessed it). Lastly another move of a fourth to Bb. And how do we get back to our home base of D from a Bb chord? Just drop it a half step to A7. So in a way, the bridge could be thought of as G-C-F-Bb, along with some half step movements. Now,
Considering that G is the fifth of C, C the fifth of, F, F the fifth of Bb, this is really a circle of fifths bridge, not unlike Sweet Georgia Brown or Rawhide, or Assanhado, or Salty Dog Blues or Alabama Jubilee or I Got Rhythm. Cool, huh?
Worth mentioning perhaps is that Savoy is usually done in Db, or F, depending on which fakebook you have or what band you're with. BUT JETHRO DID IT IN D! So it's cool there too by all means.
Don't forget on those circle of fifths phrases, each chord is expressed as a dominant chord, meaning a major chord with a flatted seventh scale degree, or mixolydian for the mode guys. Now our Savoy bridge goes G7(Ab7) G7, C7(Db7) C7, F7(Gb7)F7, Bb...A7.
The jazz guys have all their fun on dominant chords, adding alterations,(#5, b5, #9, b9)or color tones(9, 11, 13). When you think of it, the only note that isn't cool is the major seventh, since that changes the function of the chord. Even that note, though, (like, say, F# in a G7 line) can be cool if you're on and off it quickly enough. So there are a LOT of possibilities. In fact, almost anything goes, which is why this type of phrase lends itself to chromatic lines. Still, the best place to start is with seventh chord arppegios--1-3-5-b7. Then add one tension, say, 1-3-5-7-b9, and see how that helps your line or strikes your ear. Then another, etc...
Our favorite jazz soloists tend to have favorite dominant chord tensions. Django? Flat nine.
Jethro? Flat five. Joe Pass? Encircling the arpeggio: b2, maj7, root...4,b3, 3...#5,b5,5...root.
OK Darren I hope these were the type of suggestions you were looking for and that they help keep things swingin' in Humboldt County...
best,
donnie

[groveland]

Wow, that covers a lot of territory.


Considering that G is the fifth of C, C the fifth of, F, F the fifth of Bb, this is really a circle of fifths bridge, not unlike Sweet Georgia Brown or Rawhide, or Assanhado, or Salty Dog Blues or Alabama Jubilee or I Got Rhythm. Cool, huh? ...Don't forget on those circle of fifths phrases, each chord is expressed as a dominant chord, meaning a major chord with a flatted seventh scale degree, or mixolydian for the mode guys. Now our Savoy bridge goes G7(Ab7) G7, C7(Db7) C7, F7(Gb7)F7, Bb...A7.


The "rhythm changes" are so useful in the B parts in soooo many tunes that you might want to just loop those and practice blowing over them ad infinitum. Like G7/C7/F7/Bb7. Like Don said, you can treat consecutive dom7s like this so many ways - Don't stop with mixolydian. Like maybe

G7 - G mixo/C harmonic minor
C7 - C mixo/F harmonic minor
F7 - F mixo/Bb harmonic minor
Bb7 - Bb mixo/Eb harmonic minor

[djweiss]

Wow. Great responses. Don, you picked up exactly where I was getting lost, which was the G7 in Honeysuckle and those half step devices in Savoy...

In Honeysuckle, on the phrase that starts with the G7, can I consider the whole thing G7 until the C, or does it switch to C during one of the minor chord walkups?

Groveland, thanks for the loop suggestion....sounds like a good way to attack it.


Thanks again,
Darren

[Mike Bromley]

Fantastic analyses on two great tunes. The circle of fifths is a lovely device, great fertile territory for perpetual motion exercises and the like.

Luvly stuff, fellers.

[Don Stiernberg]

Darren,

...not sure what you mean by "minor walkups"--perhaps you refer to a device commonly used on the bridge of Honeysuckle Rose where the bassline moves through the harmonized scale of each tonality, as in F-Gm-(Abdim)-F7/A, Bb-Cm-(Dbdim)-Bb7/D, G-Am-(Bbdim)-G7/B, C7....?
I've listed the diminished chords in parantheses as a reminder that they are passing or connecting chords, not part of the harmonized scale of each specific tonality..
So technically, if you're moving G-Am7-Bm7, through the G harmonized scale, that's not G7, is it? But if you're jamming choruses, taking rides, blowing, improvising, doing hot takeoff, (or whatever else it might be called!)on Honeysuckle Rose in F, certainly on the G section, G7 sounds will work just fine I think. But let's talk more about it. Maybe you mean something else by "minor walkups"..
Honeysuckle Rose was featured in my column in Mandolin Magazine Volume 9, Number 4, the one with Ashley Broder on the cover. The column looked at playing rhythm for Honeysuckle Rose and Scrapple From the Apple(based on H.R....): mostly chord voicings and suggestions for where to place chords behind other soloists. But it might help, or be fun...
till soon,
old donnie

[djweiss]

Donnie,

You've correctly identified the "minor walkup" part I was referring to...I thought it was related to the harmonic scale, but the passing chords were confusing me as to how to treat them...this discussion has been an immense help...thanks so much for taking the time to post.

Any chance we'll see you in California in the near future?

Best regards,
Darren

[bobby bill]

I have one minor comment about Mr. Stiernburg's reference to the "dominant two sound" in his discussion of the G7 in Honeysuckle Rose (his first post, first paragraph). This is merely a semantic difference but sometimes calling something different can change the way we think about it (sometimes good, sometimes bad).

At any rate, back in the day, we would have called this a secondary dominant, in this case meaning the dominant seventh of the dominant (i.e., momentarily treating the V chord in F (C) as if it was a I chord in the key of C). Instead of calling the G7 a II7, we would notate: V7/V. What this implies is a micro key change. That is, while you are playing the G7 (and for that chord only) you feel like you are playing the dominant seventh chord (V7) in the key of C. When it moves to the C7 chord, you are obviously out of the key of C feeling (no B flat in C) and back playing the dominant seventh chord in the key of F.

Thinking about the micro key changes that occur during these circle of fifths progressions helps me think about what scales might be appropriate to play.

[Will Patton]

Swingin' at the Savoy - it's a great tune. I've actually gotten used to playing this in the key of Db, seems to be where folks play it from my old bass playing days.
I don't want to muddy the waters here, but sometimes I think of that 1/2 step device in the bridge as a (I / alt V / )(I / / / ) kind of change -
... so in D - the bridge would be (G / Ab /)( G / / / )(C / Db / )( C / / /) (F / Gb / ) (F / / /) (Bb / / /)(A7 / / /)

so I play: (G / D7alt /) (G / / /) ( C / G alt / )( G / / / )
etc. - make any sense?
and the alt chords are just those dominant 7ths with all the cool colors, as Don explains so well in his workshops: b9s, #9s, aug 5s and other kitchen sink items that you can usually load down these 7th chords with. It's a cool work around for just going up chromatically....
Will

[groveland]

...the bridge would be (G / Ab /)( G / / / )(C / Db / )( C / / /)

so I play: (G / D7alt /) (G / / /) ( C / G alt / )( G / / / )
etc. - make any sense?


I think the tune already made the tritone substitution (G / Ab / G / / /) where the Ab is really an Ab7alt. So I guess the other way around would be called a tritone un-substitution? (G / D7alt / G / / /). :grin:

[Don Stiernberg]

Will and Groveland...
great ideas and how ya doin'?

Maybe in this key we could think of that bridge as G(not G)G, C(not C)C, F(not F) F, Bb, A7...

Thinking about the key of Db...it might seem daunting at first, but then remember that puts the basic bridge tonalities at Gb(F#)-B-E and A. More like bluegrass!Familiar territory on the fretboard anyway..

One of my favorite recordings of this tune is by Wes Montgomery. As usual, his lines on it were very fresh and unusual sounding. I always wondered how he thought of them, perhaps it was the approach Will presented, thanks...

Don't forget you can also find different points of departure on the fretboard by thinking of the
corresponding ii minor chord of each dominant. So the bridge, back in D, might be treated also with
Dm7 as G7, Gm7 as C7, Cm7 as F7, or combinations thereof..

Subs and un-subs....Yeah Baby!

[Will Patton]

" Maybe in this key we could think of that bridge as G(not G)G, C(not C)C, F(not F) F, Bb, A7..." ... the Don

.... and once again we approach that shadowland where jazz meets zen - very cool.

-Will