oval hole mando owners- tell me about your instrument

[Barb Friedland]

I am about to embark on a custom build oval home mando journey. I'd be most interested to know what you like best and least about your oval hole mando's sound. Tell me about the tone woods and the bracing used as well.

If there's a way to send me a sound clip of your oval hole, that would be outstanding. I've only been able to play one oval hole so far and want to hear more tone qualities so I can identify more clearly the sound that I want with my chosen builder.

Thanks!

[Gerry Cassidy]

Hey, Barb,

I have 2 oval holed mando's. One is close to home for you as I see you have a Weber Bighorn 'Dola.
I have a Bighorn Traditional Oval Hole Mandolin:
Spruce top, maple back & sides
Tone Bar.

This one has a very 'Old Timey' tone to it. Every time I first pick it up and begin playing I get to feeling like playing something Scott Joplin might appreciate. :)
It doesn't have a whole bunch of lowend punch, but that improved when I put the Flat Top (ground) strings on it. The mid's and high's are what you come to expect from most oval holes: Bell Like. The sustain, and lingering ring just resonate. VERY sweet.

I have had 2 Weber Bridger F4's. Still have one of them.
These have the Weber 'D' styled hole.
Spruce top / Maple back & sides.
Modified X bracing.
More modern tone. Excellent punch across the fretboard. Again, the mid's and highs really ring. It's a good notch louder than the Bighorn.

I would highly recommend, if you can come across any, to play one of the old Gibson F4's. I feel I really heard what an oval holed mando should sound like when I finally had the chance to play one. I've had the chance to play 3 of them and they were all very rich in tone, and so easy to play.

Hope this helps...

[billkilpatrick]

i posted these to youtube - one audio/video is worth a thousand richly deserved superlatives:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=1cmrUh2n_C8

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Cgqcu9rqFDY

... i agree with what gerry says - tone was improved enormously when i changed the cheapy, factory supplied strings (which you hear in the videos) for new ones: RW92 - medium, round wound, carbon steel, "calace" strings from dogal.

plus, oval hole mandolins look so elegant - old-timey ... very classy instruments.

[John Flynn]

I have an Old Wave oval A and it is my main mandolin. I really like the signature oval sound it has. Describing tone in words is problematic, but words like "tubby in the bass and mid-range" and "bell like" in the trebles" are often used. There is also a perception of more sustain in ovals, which may be real sustain, or it may just be percieved because ovals don't tend to have the hard attack, followed by quick decay, that F-holes tend to have.

You can hear three Old Wave oval recordings at the link below, played by my instructor, Curtis Buckhannon.

http://www.mandotunes.com/homerecordings/index.php

"Bonaparte's March" and "Stoney Point" are played on #366, which is not mine, but an instrument I had in my care for a while. It is X-braced, with a cedar top and mesquite back and sides.

"Pretty Little Dog" is an A/B comparison of Curtis' 1920 Gibson A-2 and my Old Wave #352, which is X-braced, Engleman spruce over maple.

There are also good clips of other ovals on that page.

[JEStanek]

I have two oval holed instruments currently.

1) Jack Spira cant topped flat backed (http://www.jackspiraguitars.com/Mandolins.htm) instrument seen and reviewed here (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33109&highlight=spira). It is Engleman over Sheoak (similar density to Rosewood).

2) Labraid Archtop/back L&H inspired mandolin (http://www.labraid.ca/) seen, heard, and photos here (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40542&highlight=duchess). Engleman over walnut with Labraid Tone Weavers (like a virzi but a trio, soundhole, and two additional plates inside using a transverse brace. I specifically requested a darker warmer tone and Brian nailed it.

3) Gone- Eastman 814 F4. You can hear clips of these and compare against Eastman F hole instruments at the The Mandolin Store (http://www.themandolinstore.com/Scripts/default.asp). He has lots of sound clips.

My imagery for the difference between oval and f hole sound is the sound oval feels like water flowing around me and an f hole sound feels more like a ships bow pushing through me. Others envision/feel/hear it in other ways.

I play alone so this sound suits me better. I love my oval hole (even my bowl back instrument) for their sound. A downside, and there isn't one for me, is lower projection compared to f holes. Take all this while knowing I'm a novice player. I like to play fiddle tunes, medieval stuff, Renaissance stuff, folk, and Anglican hymns.

I've played some vintage Gibsons and an Oldwave briefly too. Both were great. The Gibson had that old mojo-ey feel (placebo?) while Old Wave was just excellent in terms of sound, playability (comfort) and looks.

The two other oval hole builders I would love to play would be from Hans Brentrup and Gail Hester.

In this thread (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44352) John Hamlett suggests defining your tone desired prior to picking a builder, which is good advice. Alternatively, ask the builder if s/he feels they can achieve it. Be very specific. If they can keep talking if not, move along.

I enjoyed my collaboration with the builders I chose. Good luck... Dang. I wrote too much...

Jamie

[mandroid]

2 antique Gibbys A-0 with an aluminum topped adjustable bridge , brightens a a little bit .
A-4 which I purchased a fossil walrus tusk bridge top for , a very slight bit brighter than the
ebony-wood one, on that same instrument .
bracing is traditional short cross grain one behind the hole.

and the 3rd one is a 14 fret David Hodson D'jangolin [he made some 12 fret to body ones too]

that brings up the question .. do you have in mind, build in the pre-Loar Gibby tradition , 12th fret on the body, fretboard glued directly on the carved top ?,
or a modernized hybrid,
12th fret out on the neck , more elevated fingerboard like F5s ? [or the A5 you have?]

the latter ... does give access to a few more frets without reaching over the body ,
for the high 'Mosquito notes'. :mandosmiley:

[Don]

Bill Bussman's Old Wave oval holes are great.

[Lee]

I'll second that.

[jim_n_virginia]

I have two vintage Gibson oval holed instruments.

Pro's- beautiful tubby sound diffrent than a F holed instrument, easier to install an internal pickup, great for almost any kind of music exept an open unplugged jam or Bluegrass

Con's - not for Bluegrass, can't be heard in a jam and easier to drop your pick in the hole!

:mandosmiley:

[JeffD]

All my mandolins are oval holes. (See my pics). They all sound different, all sound great.

I guess the icon of oval holes is my Gibson, (see avatar), which can do it all - projection, tone, volume, etc., with the possible exception of the chop. Oh it can chop, but some of the chop aficionados out there prefer the Gibson F hole chop.

For music with extended tremolo, sustained notes, harmonies and double stops, I like the tone of the oval hole better. For fast picking tunes, bluegrass chops, percussive sounds, many folks prefer the F hole.

With all of the precision that luthiers have at their disposal, and all of the accoustic knowledge out there, not to mention the variety of picks and strings - I sometimes wonder if there is anything necessarily distinct about F holes versus oval holes. Perhaps in a new build the difference is more aesthetic. I don't know.

The Collings MT, to my ears, has the sound I associate with oval holes, even though it is an F hole mandolin.

[JPA]

You might consider whether you'd like a traditional early Gibson-style oval hole (like the Old Wave or Gilchrist) or a hybrid.

I've just finished working with Andrew Mowry on his first carved top oval hole, and A4/A5 hybrid. We felt that this design, which is also used by Brentrup and in the new Collings, would provide a good balance between the rich, full sound of the older Gibsons (which have the fingerboard flush with the top) and the power, particularly in the upper registers, of the A5 design with the elevated fretboard. I think that Andrew's model provides an excellent balance between the two and I am really enjoying breaking it in.

Enjoy the design process. It's a lot of fun!

[Dave Harbst]

I have a late teens Gibson A and a 1993 Old Wave oval. Both are great, but each has a distinctively different voice. I feel that the Old Wave is, to my ear, the better-sounding of the two and I feel that the Old Wave mandolins, in general, are as good as you can get these days. I'm sure you will find some good reading about the Old Waves and their builder, Bill Bussman, if you just do some web-searching.
Good luck in your selection of a builder, no matter who it will be.

[Uncle Choppy]

I've had my Pumpkin Pomeroy (http://www.pomeroyinstruments.com/index.htm) A-style for a month or so now. Here's a fairly crude soundclip: John Brown's March (http://www.brendanashbrook.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/pomeroy-jb-march.mp3)

As playing, it stinks but it's a reasonable representation of the sound. I like the slightly softer, almost compressed sounding, note attack and the chiming (as opposed to piercing) trebles. What's also nice is that, despite the less agressive tonality than the typical F-hole instrument, it's still a surprisingly loud mandolin.

I don't know about the bracing pattern but Don Paine, who makes Pomeroy mandolins (along with his son, Josh), suggested going with an Englemann spruce top for a more instantly "played in" sound. I'm glad I did as it sounds great to me.

I can wholeheartedly recommend Don. Be sure to drop him a line and ask for details regarding cost and build times, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised - I was!

Brendan

[Pete Martin]

If I didn't have two great Gibsons (23 F4, 24 A2), I would own an Old Wave.

Wait, I own two Old Waves (dola and octave). Bills oval hole instruments are a real treat!!

[man dough nollij]

I heard a friend's old Gibson oval once, and was blown away. It sounded so different from my f-hole Weber Gallatin. I knew I had to have that sound, so I got an Eastman 504 oval-hole A style from Gianna Violins, sight unseen. It is an incredible sound for $500, and would be an incredible sound at $1500, IMO.

The way I characterize the oval sound is sustainy and resonant. I feel like I can hear each individual note ring out. On an f-hole (in general), the notes are compressed together, and come out as one sound.

That's not necessarily a bad thing, though. For a chop, that's exactly what you want.

When I'm in a rowdy mood, want to really wail, want to be loud, or do BG, the Gallatin is my choice. When I'm just noodling around, or playing old timey or celtic stuff, I revel in the sweet tone of the Eastman.

I'm on Bill's list for an Old Wave oval A. It's either going to be curly redwood/ mesquite, or englemann/mesquite. Haven't decided yet.

[Barb Friedland]

that brings up the question .. do you have in mind, build in the pre-Loar Gibby tradition , 12th fret on the body, fretboard glued directly on the carved top ?, or a modernized hybrid,
12th fret out on the neck , more elevated fingerboard like F5s ? [or the A5 you have?

I'm thinking more and more in the modernized hybrid direction with an elevated fingerboard, with the thought that a 2 point oval hole may provide more of the low end richness and projection I'm hoping for while maintaining that round bell-like sustain we oval hole admirers love.

I'm pretty set on another BRW. I absolutely adore the 2 point f-style that I play Bluegrass on. Ben and I are just beginning talking about what I'm looking for.

Thanks everyone for the posts. Keep 'em coming...

[man dough nollij]

I'm pretty sure Old Waves are of the low-FB, 12th fret variety. I talked to him about making mine a hybrid. He said he had made some like that, but didn't see any advantage to it, if I remember correctly.

[Lee]

Brentrup's oval-hole with the raised fretboard hybrid design is wonderful too. Ben's 3-point hybrid oval is too. If you're familiar with Ben's stuff and like working with him, you can't go wrong.

[Chiledog]

What a facinating thread! I am sure there are others I haven't seen, but this has been an eye opening read for a noob.

Todd

[mandopete]

Not sure what your requirements are, but comming from the F-style, f-hole I found many of the oval hole instruments lacking. This was until I picked up an A Style oval hole from Fletcher Brock. It has especially nice tone in both the open positions and up the neck. It also has a raised fingerboard which is a feature I preferred.

[PhilGE]

Old Wave #312 has Englemann Spruce top w/modified X-bracing, Curly Maple back and sides, Ebony bridge and Ebony fretboard. Peghead has Koa veneer. Pickguard of my own design (built by Bill, modified by local luthier Jim Shenk) added later also made from Ebony.

Pictures of the instrument HERE (http://homepage.mac.com/philg2/OldWaveA/PhotoAlbum15.html).

John Brown's March (http://homepage.mac.com/philg2/.Music/JBMOW.mp3) clip

Ookpik Waltz (http://homepage.mac.com/philg2/.Music/OokpikV2.mp3) clip

Muddy Creek (http://homepage.mac.com/philg2/.Music/muddycreek.mp3) clip

An older similar thread was discussed HERE (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40285&highlight=wave).

Hope this helps!

[pjlama]

I'm thinking more and more in the modernized hybrid direction with an elevated fingerboard, with the thought that a 2 point oval hole may provide more of the low end richness and projection I'm hoping for while maintaining that round bell-like sustain we oval hole admirers love.

I'm pretty set on another BRW. I absolutely adore the 2 point f-style that I play Bluegrass on. Ben and I are just beginning talking about what I'm looking for.

Thanks everyone for the posts. Keep 'em coming...

I played Ben's hybrid oval, as he sent it to me for opinions and I would have bought it if I had the funds at the time. It was absolutely outstanding. Just ask him to make it like his LT-H4, x-braced. Let him do the heavy lifting just let him know what you want for color, body shape and let him pick the bracing and woods. He's a great builder and his oval was easily one of the best I've played/heard.

[BBarton]

I have three oval hole mandolins - an '20 Gibson A4, and two custom mandolins built by Peter Sawchyn in Regina, Saskatchewan. One is a matte black-stained A4 clone and the other is a natural finish F4 clone with an extended neck. Both of these are built using the standard Gibson tone bar bracing pattern and both sound surprising like the old Gibsons they were patterned after. Workmanship is awesome, and great tone and balance in both -- the A a little more "woody" and the F more bell-like. I had the Sawchyn oval A at a mandolin course last summer with Andrew Collins, and he really liked it. That said, I've heard that the Old Wave ovals are great.

[ash89]

my '16 'A' may be a bit tubby, but brims with warmth, and middle strings
from 5th fret up cut like a sword.

for a different perspective on how ovals work, do yourself a favour
and speak to gail hester.~o)

[Barb Friedland]

I played Ben's hybrid oval, as he sent it to me for opinions and I would have bought it if I had the funds at the time. It was absolutely outstanding. Just ask him to make it like his LT-H4, x-braced. Let him do the heavy lifting just let him know what you want for color, body shape and let him pick the bracing and woods. He's a great builder and his oval was easily one of the best I've played/heard.

Thanks PJ. Good thoughts from all. I absolutely trust Ben. He is an amazing craftsman. He did a great job of matching what I wanted sound-wise with an instrument he had already finished building so the idea of doing a custom build with him is like walking into a candy store.

[Caleb]

I have a round hole mandolin that I built. It's not exactly "oval", but I think it counts. I've only been playing mandolin for a couple years and haven't played that many mandolins. I've probably held only a dozen or so in my hands. The best-sounding, best-playing mandolin I've ever had the chance to play was a Kentucky F-style of some sort. So I'm no authority on oval hole tone vs. f-hole tone. But I do own an f-hole A-style Eastman as well as the custom mando in my avatar. There are definite tonal difference between the two.

The oval hole has a better low-end and is a bit louder, where the f-hole has a more clear tone overall. Further than that I really can't be of much help, since the differences really have to be heard. I let a guy who's a great player play a bit on my custom and it sounded different than it ever does in my hands. He could make it "chop" and do all the things he wanted it to do. I'm not nearly as versatile a player as he though.

My suggestion would be to try and find a place that has a few of each and check out the differences in person.

[Ken Froman]

well before I knew what I was doing or anything about mandolins I bought a Kay oval hole mando overpriced by about $100. After i finally learned to play and got an F style I kept it for a beater and took it around to festivals for autographs. Ran out of room for autographs but still have it in case I ever need a spare !

[Barb Friedland]

Anyone jumping in at this point. I am inviting folk who have experience with oval hole mandolins to comment on what you like best and least about your oval hole mando's sound. I'm interested in your experience with tone woods, bracing etc. I'm also interested in hearing sound clips of your oval hole mando.

Here's what I'm up to- I'm trying to pin down the sound qualities I want and how they may relate to tone wood, bracing patterns etc. This is to support getting really complete information to my builder.

I offer a gentle friendly hint that I'm not looking for stories about how you got your mandolin. :)

Thanks to all for a lot of helpful stuff. I'll let you know where my oval hole mando journey goes.

[peter.coombe]

OK, I'll jump in now. I have made close to 100 oval hole mandolins so far over a period of 15 years, probably a few less than 100, but stopped counting years ago. What do I look for in the oval hole sound? Lots of ring and sustain, and a warm sweet tone, but well balanced with no bass boom. Clearity and a really "clean" sound are also very important. Lots of volume is good as well, but there must no compromises on tone to get volume. What do I dislike? Many oval hole mandolins have a big bass boom as the tuning of the soundbox resonates with the G string. Many are also not well balanced, i.e. the sound is not even acrosss the strings and up the neck. Some are really loud, but the tone is compromised i.e "dirty". I never try to make loud oval hole mandolins, it is just that some turn out to be loud. I have played a few "modern" examples with elevated fingerboards and long necks and wierd bracing, but have been unimpressed. They don't sound "right" to me, whatever that means. Maybe some are excellent, but I have not played them, or maybe people like them because they are stuck in the F hole sound groove.

In terms of woods, I like European Spruce for the top and either Myrtle (the Aussie species) or European Maple for the back. Myrtle gives a warmer sound, but European Maple has some really special qualities that are difficult to describe in words. Alternative woods that can make stunning oval hole mandolins are King Billy Pine and Aussie Blackwood. These are capable of blowing away some of the best Spruce topped oval hole mandolins, with clarity, sweetness and projection to die for. Not everyone likes these though because they do have a slightly different characteristic sound. I really like Red Spruce in F hole mandolins, but I think I get better results from European Spruce in the ovals.

As far bracing goes, I use X bracing. Have tried the Gibson cross brace (among others), but I think the X sounds better to my ears. Braces are Red Spruce. Bridge is my own modifications to the Brekke bridge. Basic design is based on the Gibson snakehead, but modernised. I have never felt the need to change the basic design because it works so well. All the changes from the Gibson standard are designed to improve the sound. I like them, and thankfully a lot of other oval hole players do as well.

All that may not be useful because it just relates to my experiences, and what works for me, not that of your builder. It may not be the sound you are after because I aim for the "traditional" oval hole sound. If you tell your builder to do what I do, it may not work for him. Let him be the judge of what works and what does not.

[Barb Friedland]

Very valuable thoughts Peter. Thanks for sharing a builder perspective.

[woodwizard]

I like the sound of oval holes. As a matter of fact I'm currently saving up for one and when I have the funds I'm going to take the oval hole plunge again. I'm leaning toward an oval hole hybrid w/scroll ofcourse. Been saving for about a year... still not quite there money wise. If I had the funds I would already have one. Seen and played some nice ones that probably won't be available when I'm ready. BUMMER. I'll get there. Getting older has taught me to not get so much in a rush.

[acousticphd]

I play oval-hole mandolins ~75% of the time. I have two X-braced Old Waves (A and C#/2 pt), an X-braced Howard Morris F4, and 2 old Gibson style As (plus a couple round soundhole flattops but this is more of a different category). They definitely share some things in common sound-wise, but also sound fairly different among them, including between the two Gibsons. The several Old Wave ovals I've heard or played have been among my favorite mandolins tone-wise - to my ears they sound like I think they "should" sound, with wonderful clarity and sustain. But for the last year or so, I'm really into one of my Gibson As - I guess it suits what I like to play most of the time.

[billkilpatrick]

have a listen here:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=1cmrUh2n_C8

... and here:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Cgqcu9rqFDY

apologies for the poor sound quality of my cam'corder.

it's a relatively inexpensive mandolin with a warm and woody tone. it has a nice balance between treble and bass notes, all the way up the neck (haven't played them all ... but so far, no "dud" notes.)

you're probably aware of this already but generally speaking - variables of tone wood, choice of pick and strings not-withstanding - oval hole instruments are "warm" while f-holes are "bright."