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Eugene
Jul-11-2004, 9:18am
First, here is a 1736 piece by Smorsone:

Eugene
Jul-11-2004, 9:26am
...and here is a reproduction made for me by Luciano Faria (http://www.lucianofaria.com/) in Brazil. #There is some lovely bear-claw figure to the spruce of the single-panel top that didn't photograph well. #The most attractive feature may be the snow-white bone fingerboard trimmed in ebony and holly. #The original featured some pretty intense engraving, but I like the well-executed, simple grace of my simplified version. #This arrived with nylon strings, but I will be changing to gut with the first string change. #Upon scrutiny, there is a little coarseness evident in the execution of the rose, pegs, and top's binding, but this is easily forgivable; for the price I paid, I am overjoyed with the whole package.

Eugene
Jul-11-2004, 9:32am
The original was backed in ebony and ivory. Elephants being scarcer now than then, mine is backed in "Imperial" Brazilian rosewood and maple. I really like the double spacers between each rib. The intense inlays in the broadest rib of the original are omitted in mine. The original's neck was veneered in tortoise shell. Mine is veneered in rosewood with maple inlays. The inlays were a surprise; I had expected a simpler, striped veneer. I am very fond of the looks of the tree-of-life-style inlays. Again, they are a touch coarse upon scrutiny, but just a touch and I remain overjoyed with Luciano's above-and-beyond efforts.

Eugene
Jul-11-2004, 9:39am
I am really excited over the case. This was very nicely built by an associate of Luciano's. It is a pretty typical, tight hardshell case, but the panels are made of really hard plywood. The fur lining is plush and furry. The block to support the neck folds open for a little storage. A case of this size cost US$80! I don't know what shipping on the case alone would run. I am already plotting to make tracings of various bowlback makes for the case maker. I am guessing that a case for a typical modern bowlback wouldn't run but ca. US$100 or so.

Bob A
Jul-11-2004, 9:51am
Wow, gorgeous instrument. I know how you've been eagerly anticipating. Doubtless the reality matches the builtup expectation.

You must let us know about the cases.

Jim Garber
Jul-11-2004, 9:57am
I am really excited over the case. #This was very nicely built by an associate of Luciano's. #It is a pretty typical, tight hardshell case, but the panels are made of really hard plywood. #The fur lining is plush and furry. #The block to support the neck folds open for a little storage. #A case of this size cost US$80! #I don't know what shipping on the case alone would run. #I am already plotting to make tracings of various bowlback makes for the case maker. #I am guessing that a case for a typical modern bowlback wouldn't run but ca. US$100 or so.
Eugene:
I congratulated you on the bowlback picture thread. Yes the case looks wonderful. Perhaps we can do a group ship and save some on that.

Jim

Ali
Jul-11-2004, 2:57pm
Lovely looking instrument Eugene. I Like the size and proportions alot. What tuning are you using? Standard Baroque Mandolino or something else? I get so confused with different tunings.....
There is a German Barock Mandolino on Ebay at the moment.
ALI

etbarbaric
Jul-11-2004, 3:15pm
Hi Eugene,

Congratulations on your new instrument.... it looks wonderful and I'm sure you will enjoy playing it. When you go to gut strings, I can strongly recommend Dan Larson's "gimped" Pistoy strings for the basses (g- and b-strings). If you find a gut chanterelle that lasts more than a day... I trust you will let me know? :-)

Its great to have another mandolino player in the fold... and a new builder as well!

Eric

Alex Timmerman
Jul-11-2004, 3:20pm
Congratulations, Eugene!

It looks very nice; tell us how it sounds.


Many greetings,

Alex

PS. IŽll give you the link to the instrument Alison refers to. Click here #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif (http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3735517170&rd=1)

Eugene
Jul-11-2004, 3:35pm
Thank you, all. #As I've briefly written elsewhere, I'm not fond of the persistent klang of nylon on such stuff. #So strung, this sounds almost quietly harp-like to me throughout the lower four courses. #I'm eager to hear it with gut, possibly under slightly higher tension; the strings don't feel very resistant at pitch. #Volume is good, comparable to a modern guitar. #I maintain my nails because I am paid to play on a modern guitar more than on any other instrument. #I find I generate better tone and volume on this if I concentrate on generating a right hand attack further into the flesh of my fingers rather than from the nails.

Yes, I am using the standard g-b-e'-a'-d"-g", low to high.

On the aesthetics of Smorsone's proportions, I agree wholeheartedly. #Luciano collected info on this Smorsone and the famous Lambert in the V&A. #I am more fond of the profile of the old Italian pieces.

I intend to write the case maker soon (hoping he has some command of English because I have no command of Portuguese). I will let you know what I hear, Jim et al.

Jim Garber
Jul-11-2004, 3:46pm
I intend to write the case maker soon (hoping he has some command of English because I have no command of Portuguese). #I will let you know what I hear, Jim et al.
I have a few friends who are fluent in continental Portuguese (not Brazilian, tho), so if you need any help. feel free...

I was just curious about how Luciano was able to replicate the instrument. Has he handled such instruments in person. Did he go to the V&A? Did he get measurements from someone?

Jim

Eugene
Jul-11-2004, 3:47pm
PS: There was a very nice terz guitar by Dietrich owned by an acquaintence of mine here. It was well-made with real concern for the original aesthetic and function. That said, it continues to baffle me why such a fine, skilled luthier would dedicate so much time to concocting such an idealized pseudo-anachronism as a so-called barockmandoline.

Eugene
Jul-11-2004, 3:56pm
I was just curious about how Luciano was able to replicate the instrument. Has he handled such instruments in person. Did he go to the V&A? Did he get measurements from someone?
Luciano is an experienced lute builder. The museum in Berlin that holds the original provided detailed measurements, and Luciano simply applied his working knowledge of lute building to the scaled-down proportions of the mandolino. I shared a good many images with him as well, but these don't go nearly as far as good specs from the holder of original instruments.

I'll let you know what reply I get to my English e-mail efforts, Jim. I know our old chum Tom C. is fluent in some romance languages; I don't know what he knows of Protuguese...or its Brazilian derivative. I also suspect Luciano himself would be happy to facilitate my efforts at communication. Luciano and I have corresponded briefly on this possibility before.

K. WONG
Jul-11-2004, 7:23pm
a lovely instrument. Could you play a short piece with it and have it recorded in mp3, so that we not only can see it but hear it as well?

Plamen Ivanov
Jul-12-2004, 12:06am
Congratulations Eugene,

Great work at all! I also like the double spacers between the ribs very much! Enjoy this beautiful instrument as much as you can. Hope to hear it`s sound!

Good luck!

etbarbaric
Jul-12-2004, 8:26am
>> That said, it continues to baffle me why such
>> a fine, skilled luthier would dedicate so much
>> time to concocting such an idealized pseudo-
>> anachronism as a so-called barockmandoline.

Indeed! I supposed we can chalk it up to luthiers being willing to build what people will buy. In Germany, people are taught by some that this is a historically-valid instrument to play. Of course, some would argue (myself among them) that this barockmandoline comes with a playing technique that is equally concocted... both parts justify eachother.

Perhaps all this luthier needs is a client who will order a close copy of an existing original mandolino. There are plenty of interesting examples that reside in german museums.

Through all of this, I think we have to be careful that we don't fall into the same traps... namely settling on one model of mandolino that "speaks for" all of the wonderful variety that can be found in the historical record.

Eric

Eugene
Jul-12-2004, 11:56am
Greetings Kasper. #It's good to see you back in these parts. #How's your madnolino doing? #Are you playing it much?

Before I commit to recording with mine, Plami and Kasper, I should probably learn to play something and, ideally, string it with gut. #I'm already a good chunk into Vivaldi's RV 425 with it and have largely assimilated the A section of the little Allemande by Cechherini...but in a rather amateurish fashion so far. (who am I fooling? #All of my musical efforts are in rather amateurish fashion.) #I don't really have any recording software, but can record a 30-sec snippet with the default Windows thingy.


Through all of this, I think we have to be careful that we don't fall into the same traps... namely settling on one model of mandolino that "speaks for" all of the wonderful variety that can be found in the historical record.
I agree. #This, in part, is why the Smorsone design is so appealing to me. #It seems so typical of so many period instruments, but I don't know of anybody reproducing Smorsone's work specifically...until now.

Jim Garber
Aug-18-2004, 6:40pm
Eugene:
Now that it is over a month that you have this baby... any further reports on its settling in with you? Does it sing sweetly with its gut strings? Does it sleep thru the night?

Jim

Eugene
Aug-18-2004, 8:14pm
Not much more to report. I haven't had much time to play...and certainly haven't gotten around to a string change yet. I am growing more fond of the sound of the instrument and it is seeming quite loud and clear-voiced to me. The Ceccherini allemand is pretty well assimilated; I don't really think it's a very good piece of music though. I started working on the Sammartini sonata. It is excellent. Unfortunately, I'm going to have to lay this down for a while and prepare guitar rep for a pendind wedding gig.

RSW
Aug-19-2004, 1:33am
Hello Eugene,

Looks like a lovely instrument. A few questions:

1. Scale length (nut to bridge)?
2. General sound, especially low register?
3. Does this luthier have other models to copy? I'm looking for a late 18th century design.
4. PRICE?

Molto grazie,

Richard

p.s. For Ali, Eugene's Smorsonne design is undoubtedly tuned in G.
p.p.s. For Eric, I've had examples of Dan's g-1's in gut lasting for a considerable length of time (7-21 days), played maybe 1-2 hours per day. I've also had top g's snap in 7-21 seconds. I guess it depends on the position of the moon when the sheep was born:). It does help to have a shorter scaled mandolin (shorter than the Larson-Lambert type). No question, nylon is definitely less appealing than gut for tone.

etbarbaric
Aug-19-2004, 6:20am
Hey Richard,

Great to see you keystrokes.

I went through an intense period of trying gut strings and chanterelles (g1) on various mandolinos earlier this summer. Gut is certainly a wonderful and stable choice for almost all courses. I certainly use gut eveywhere that I can.

My informal findings from a frenzy of string changes a few months ago were that most of the available modern gut chanterelles (g1) are quite consistent... namely, they have about the same breakage qualities. I tried Dan Larson's (lots of Dan's), Olav Chris Hendriksen's (Boston Catlines), and Nick Baldock's (sp?) Kathedrale (sp?) strings... all of .40mm guage.

And yes... I saw considerable variability... both in length of life, as well as position of breakage. Some would break under the left hand fingers (the longer-lived strings), some under the right-hand fingers, some where they were tied at the bridge, and some at an arbitrary point where they just seem to frey and come apart. This additional variability, and the fact that various mandolinos were used in my experiments leads me to believe that perhaps it is the moon after all! Chris has mentioned that historically, some of the strongest and finest strings were made from (brace yourselves) the guts of aborted lamb fetuses.... gack! historical string making is grisly business..

I'm going to be contacting Mimo Perufo to hopefully investigate his "unrectified" gut trebles. He claims that by not polishing the string completely smooth he gets much better life, and a much higher breaking pitch. This makes implicit sense to me since one would presumably break fewer fibers in the individual guts by less smoothing and polishing. Others I have talked to think that this doesn't matter as much, and that good strength comes from different qualities (namely the quality of the Collagen bond... apparently an unpredictable proposition... back to phases of the moon).

I have gotten used to nylon chanterelles for daily practice (yeah right... like I practice daily!) on both single- and double-coursed mandolinos and they are a good compromise. I find the plain nylon (Pyramid) string to be much better than the stiffer Nylgut for this particular purpose. Of course, all varieties of Nylon have different stretching properties than gut... and they take considerably more time to settle after having been relaxed. If a peg pops loose during a concert with a nylon chanterelle, it might be time to call an intermission!

Ramble ramble...

Eric

Eugene
Aug-20-2004, 7:31pm
Greetings Richard,
1. A touch under 33 cm, about 32.8 cm.

2. I have a kinda rough time representing tonal quality with something as abstract language. The sounds is percussive but warm, quite loud and penetrating on the unwound strings. #The low g is maybe a little thin. #I'm not certain yet if this is the nature of the instrument or of the strings of wound synthetic fibers. #When the g and b go, I intend to replace them with Dan Larson's gimped gut. #I am hoping to record a bit with this and post it somewhere online, but I don't know if I'll ever find the time and, if I do, don't know if it will be before or after I convert to gut.

3. I know he collected specs on this Smorsone and the famous V&A Lambert, but this is the first mandolino that Luciano has built. #I'm certain he would be happy to go about the same procedure for another instrument. #I personally shared images of several late 18th-c. pieces by Presbler with Luciano. #He really seemed to like the looks of those.

4. Because this is his first, I'm not certain what Luciano will be charging for such things in the future. #Thus, I'm a little reluctant to give specifics of the price he gave me on this prototype in a public forum. #I do know he intends to list this instrument on his web site; Luciano tells me an update there is pending. #If you visit his site, you can get an impression of his prices. #I will say that the US dollar goes a great distance in Brazil. #Again, the detail work is a little coarse, especially regarding the pegs and rose (somewhere between the quality of his cheap and his expensive guitar roses pictured). #Still, I am very pleased with the package in whole. #If you want details of anything--detail work, the price I paid, etc.--feel free to drop me a private e-mail.

Aug-26-2004, 4:10pm
Hey Eugene,
Good deal! Glad everything worked out with this. Quite a beautiful looking little instrument! Can hardly wait to hear how it sounds with gut.

This is motivating me to actually play my 11-course baroque lute (also built by Luciao). He is good, eh? And yes, I understand what you mean by a certain rough quality inherent in the intrument, as my lute also has this same quality. Definitely not shoddy quality by any stretch of the imagination, especially since it does sound, as well as look quite nice! So, I concur that indeed, for the price, the instrument is a real steal! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

All the best!

Greg--

Eugene
Aug-27-2004, 7:31am
Thanks, Greg.

etbarbaric
Aug-27-2004, 10:02am
I suppose that its worth noting that many historical plucked instruments, and certainly most historical mandolins are somewhat "rough" in their fit and finish. Most 18th-century neapolitan mandolins look quite spectacular when taken from a certain distance... but much of that inlay is somewhat more humble on close inspection. I personally enjoy seeing toolmarks, brushmarks, and the like on historical instruments.... it reminds me that the instrument was made by human hands, and in some cases shows me how things were done.

This reality can be a shock to our modern sense of perfection. I must confess that it took me some time to appreciate the finish of a new violin I commissioned that was (intentionally) not french polished out to remove brush marks... yet I marvel at the brush marks that have survived in the varnish of an early 18th-century example and I'd kill the luthier that polished them out...

Eric

Eugene
Aug-27-2004, 11:17am
...I personally enjoy seeing toolmarks, brushmarks, and the like on historical instruments.... it reminds me that the instrument was made by human hands, and in some cases shows me how things were done.

...yet I marvel at the brush marks that have survived in the varnish of an early 18th-century example and I'd kill the luthier that polished them out...
Aye!

Eugene
Sep-03-2004, 10:08am
Luciano's web site is now updated (complete with prices) with a page on this mandolino; go to http://www.lucianofaria.com/ and click on the erroneously plural "Mandolinos." #This may be the most affordable instrument of its kind of which I am aware. #Also, check out his groovy new 5-course Cocko guitar model and, for the fans of early harp guitars, the outlandish theorboed guitar patterned after a ca. 1760 anonymous French piece.

prayerbone
Jun-05-2005, 5:38am
hi, Eugene i was reading through the older post and come upon this one..did you ever do a mp3 of this instrument? id love to hear it!..how do you play a mandolino is it fingerstyle like a lute? wowee i want one lol...aj

ps the maker wrote to me after i posted this theres now a 9-10 month waiting list for the mandolino

Eugene
Jun-09-2005, 11:40am
Nope. #...I'm still thinking of it, though, and will post it somewhere accessible if I get around to it. #Playing this thing is great fun, and I highly recommend such an instrument by any builder for anybody who likes the music originally written for this thing (like Vivaldi or Scarlatti).

Sorry it's taken me so long to get back to you, prayerbone. #I've been at an out-of-state conference with little time for Cafe dalliance.

prayerbone
Jun-09-2005, 11:44am
hi thats ok Eugene thks for the reply..do you play the mandolino like a lute or with a pick or either? andy

Eugene
Jun-09-2005, 11:50am
I play baroque music on this instrument with the fingers, lute-like. #Much of the baroque music for the instrument isn't easily playable with plectra and most of the iconography implies finger-style technique (like The Little Concert (http://www.wga.hu/art/l/longhi/pietro/thelittl.jpg) by Pietro Longhi). #It's likely that plectrum play became more prominent in the rococo era.

prayerbone
Jun-09-2005, 12:03pm
hi thks for the reply..it sounds a fascinating instrument..i emailed the maker he seems a very nice guy and was very helpful..he emailed me that there was a 10 month waiting list.the instrument does intrigue me,though ive swapped allegiance to the mandolin from the banjo shhhhhh lol,i do sometims miss fingerpicking..it strikes me that a instrument with some similarities to the mandolin would make swapping between the two partially easier then two different instruments ie banjo and mandolin ..andy