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View Full Version : Michael Kelly Legacy FSE - extremely low output?



Tim Bowen
Sep-22-2008, 9:41pm
Howdy,

Some of you might recall my recent thread:

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43664

The MK arrived; it's a beautiful instrument with an impeccable finish, and as promised by the vendor, it arrived with a pro setup - no qualms here whatsoever as to playability, action, and intonation. So I popped a new Duracell into the battery compartment and took it out to a bar gig and a festival job over the weekend.

It felt great to play, but it was immediately apparent that the output level was anemic - not "something's wrong with this" low (or maybe there is?), but just considerably lower than any of the other instruments I utilize at my acoustic-electric jobs.

There is some variance in output levels between my current main working instruments - Larrivee standard and high-strung guitars, GoldTone electric banjo, Supro lap steel, and up until recently, an Ovation mandolin. To match output levels between instruments (and to boost signal as needed), and because there's a broad dynamic range within the material that I do, I have two levels of signal boost at my feet; these are high quality, low gain clean boost circuits with headroom for days (and I even run one of them at 18V). With the aforementioned instruments, I can boost the signal a bit, roll back the volume, have a bit of spare volume on tap, and have little-to-no perceived audible clipping, which is generally my approach to acoustic-electric shows.

However, I had to engage both levels of boost to get the MK to sit well within the mix alongside a Gibson J-200 guitar - for rhythm - and we're talking a duo job here. Volume on the instrument itself was maxed, there were no shades of grey available across the taper of the volume slider, at least with regard to sitting comfortably within the live mix. For leads and fills, I had no choice but to just dig in really hard, and at this point, there was some subtle clipping with the DI/PA signal. I should say at this point that during soundcheck, the amplified tones were really nice; it was just too low a signal to work with for the gig itself.

I have experience with Fishman preamp systems, and this is the last thing I expected to encounter. I really enjoyed playing the instrument (much more than the Ovation), and I truly want to make it work. However, the Ovation destroys it as to output volume, and my Fender has a bit more headroom as well. Obviously, this sort of output dilemma is going to be tough to work around. Is what I'm describing inherent to this model, or would you speculate that there's something *wrong* with the instrument that I have here? What's the fix?

Help. Thanks.

Tim2723
Sep-23-2008, 9:59am
Hi Tim,

You'll find that the Fishman System One volume pot is considerably non-linear. That is, everything happens in the last 1/4 of its travel. There's nothing wrong, it's just a peculiarity of the design. I found the opposite to be true with the Ovation (OP-1?) preamp, where anything above 1/4 distorted terribly. I go directly into the board with my MK and have the channel gain at about 1 o'clock (6-7 ish) and the Fishman's slider at about 70%. I've yet to have any real problem, it's just that there isn't any output below the halfway mark.

Tim2723
Sep-23-2008, 10:06am
P.S. Make sure the piezo element is seated correctly after the set up. It is a thin strip that sits just below the top section of the bridge. Mine got out of place once.

Tim Bowen
Sep-23-2008, 9:30pm
Thanks Tim. I took the instrument with me today to a music store that I teach at, and had the owner and another musician check it out with me, both of whom have experience with acoustic-electric mandolins. We put in another new battery and checked the piezo strip, which was seated properly. We then played it through a 100 watt Marshall (!) with the amp's volume set at '7' (!!!)... by all rights, our hair should have been parted by the volume onslaught, and it should've been howling like a banshee with feedback. However, we were able to carry on a conversation quite comfortably over the sound of the instrument. Both of those guys felt quite strongly that something is amiss here, so I plan to contact the vendor tomorrow.

Tim2723
Sep-24-2008, 9:15am
Oh, that's a little more than the linearity characteristic all right! Something must be wrong. Both my MKs will part your hair under those conditions, it's just that the slider has to be at about 7 to do it.

If, during your investigations, you find a source for replacement parts or the System One mandolin set up, please let me know. I was never able to secure replacement parts for my first MK.

Good luck, Tim. Sorry that you're having this problem. I feel like I convinced you to go with the MK. I think there's nothing wrong with the mandolin itself, but the Fishman design does leave a little to be desired.

mandroid
Sep-24-2008, 10:54am
The whole onboard preamp , it 'sounds' like, [reading the previous] is not functioning, properly.
Now if you had a Godin A8 you could contact the preamps's supplier
in California,
but, where the preamp, that the one you have , in that MK, came from, is anyone's guess.

Prompt> MK offer to send another preamp unit?

:popcorn:

test: rewire, run piezo direct to the output jack, bypass the onboard, and use an external preamp.
see if that recovers lost gain.

Tim Bowen
Sep-24-2008, 9:52pm
Thanks for the help, folks. And Tim, no worries, my friend! I couldn't be happier with the instrument itself, and there's gotta be a practical fix for this. I feel reasonably confident that once this issue is resolved, I'll have a solid instrument that will effectively solve my mando dilemma.

I did a search but was unable to locate any contact info for the Michael Kelly company...? I did speak to the vendor today. The rep said that mine was not the first complaint he'd heard about output, but that my comments as based on gig experience have prompted him to look into the situation in more depth. He said that he would test some other MK's he has in stock for output, and I plan on speaking with him again tomorrow. I'll also press for MK contact info.

From the 'worst case scenario' department: The vendor also mentioned that there's a very small internal preamp available that could be installed, which would allow continued side panel control usage, with no external modifications; unfortunately, he couldn't remember the product name or manufacturer... does anybody know what unit he's referring to? If this is the solution, and if it's not prohibitively expensive - I like the instrument enough that I wouldn't be opposed to it. Thoughts? I'm extremely happy with the performance I get from the two clean boost pedals I mentioned earlier, in tandem with my other working instruments; hence, I definitely do not want to add an external dedicated floor preamp, I want to resolve the issue within the guts of the instrument itself.

mandroid
Sep-24-2008, 10:54pm
I was suggesting the bypass and temporary external as a test, to isolate the problem to the onboard preamp.
one of the components in the preamp is shorted out.
if so, the whole side mounted unit can be replaced [ they were cheap to make , no doubt ]
sounds like they are testing some replacements, and hopefully will ship one,
then you get to pluck out the original one and solder in the replacement.

Tim Bowen
Nov-02-2008, 2:16am
Long story short - there was a seating/contact problem with the pickup in my instrument. The vendor took care of it at no cost to myself. I took the revitalized instrument out to last night's job, and it had at least twice the output as per my previous experiences. It sounded, played, and responded wonderfully, and I was as happy as a gopher in a cactus patch. After about three years of regularly struggling with reasonably priced acoustic-electric mandolins in the live environment, I think I can put my frustrations to bed for a while.

The minor inconveniences involved with the history of my transaction might possibly have an upside for potential future consumers - after several correspondences with the vendor, and willingness by the vendor to take the instrument back and extend return policy stipulations (ultimately resulting in resolution and my personal satisfaction), vendor said to me in no uncertain terms that all instruments from the product line will from this point on be meticulously inspected as electric instruments. Fair enough.

Tim2723
Nov-02-2008, 8:28am
Oh man, am I glad that worked out! I had a feeling it was going to be the contact problem after all, even though you checked that earlier (mine slipped once, and I thought the amp was dead). I feel so much better now!!! I was thinkng, why did I talk him into this? Poor MKs get such a bad rap around here as it is. I could just hear all the parrots squawking "And their electronics are no good either, Awk!"

Tim Bowen
Nov-02-2008, 10:06pm
Hey Tim,

Sorry man, didn't mean to cause you any anxiety! You're a very good man for caring what happened to me with this situation. I feel better now that you feel better... heck, I just feel better! I've got a very good playing, very good sounding A/E instrument for reasonable bucks that, as I mentioned, has solved an ongoing dilemma.

As for the long, strange trip on the way to resolving the output issue, some really odd stuff... I had several folks look at the pickup contact and seating, all of whom are lifer working musicians; one has owned a music store since the 70's, and another has done much of my musical instrument repair on various instruments for over twenty years... these guys know what the heck they're doing, and NOBODY spotted a contact problem, including myself! Usually when there's a pickup contact problem, there's some sort of string-to-string volume balance inconsistencies (on my Larrivee D-03 high-strung guitar, I actually wound up having to split the saddle in order to get balance) - not so here, the balance couldn't possibly have been more consistent across the strings, it was simply anemic.

Further weirdness: In working with the aforementioned repair tech, my instrument truly had him scratching his head, and I've rarely seen this guy get bamboozled. For starters, as mandroid suggested previously, the pickup was ran to an external preamp and the onboard side panel was bypassed; the output was extremely low, but that's not really that odd if contact problems were present. Here's what I still can't figure out: the preamp section was tested with a signal generator and an oscilloscope, and it wouldn't even pass a normal looking sine wave - the wave was all goofy and choppy looking. So the tests revealed curveballs and spitballs from jumpstreet.

Whatever Twilight Zone snafu was present, all is good now, and that's all that matters.

Rhinestone
Nov-24-2008, 12:15am
I got one of those things. I pretty much like the basic instrument. I got lucky and the neck on mine is super straight and it's capable of being set up really well. The pickup on mine was extremely anemic also however,so after taking it apart and looking at it I discovered that it's just a piece of shielded co-ax that's "sorta" microphonic and it's supposed to act as a pickup inside the rosewood bridge which is also not that great. My fix: I bought a Schatten mando bridge/pickup which is ebony,a little more stout and better made and the pickup inside is really clean and powerful. It comes with one of those clamp-on jacks with a volume knob which I just cut off and soldered the pickup into the Fishman preamp which is just fine BTW. Now my MK really speaks electrically and it's even much better acoustically because of the ebony. If you do that mod,make sure you take the time to fit the feet of the new bridge to the curvature of the top for maximum tranfer of string vibration. I also put a cast Allan tailpiece on there. All in all it now sounds and plays like a $2000 mandolin instead of a $700 mandolin and the electrics are hi-fi and powerful. YMMV