View Full Version : Two point mandolins
lloydalan
Aug-09-2008, 2:56pm
Greetings Everyone!
My name is Lloyd, and I am new to the mandolin and your wonderful website. I have never seen a website with so much great information, and helpful, courteous members.
I have a question regarding two point mandolins and F-style mandolins. Do they sound basically the same, or do they possess different tone qualities. If there are differences, are they pretty obvious, or more on the subtle side?
I appreciate your help!
Cheers,
Lloyd
Tim2723
Aug-09-2008, 3:17pm
Hi Lloyd, and welcome!
I have a two-point and an F5 style. They have very different tones, but the two-point is an oval-hole instrument. Personally, I think the shape of the soundhole (oval vs. f type) makes far more difference than the body shape for arch-topped instruments. If you compare a two-point and F style that have oval holes, and a matching pair with F holes, there's not very much difference, assuming they are of equal quality. The points and scrolls on the outside make less difference than the hole shape and overall quality, IMHO.
Chris Biorkman
Aug-09-2008, 3:19pm
There are people who say that there is a difference. I've heard my instructor's Nugget F style and two point and I can't tell much of a difference. I know he actually prefers the two point and almost exclusively plays it when he gigs.
Brandon Flynn
Aug-09-2008, 3:23pm
I think the differences in tone have to do with wood choices and F holes vs oval. If both are F holed and the same woods, they should have the same sort of tone.
Tim2723
Aug-09-2008, 3:27pm
There's another avantage of steering clear of points and scrolls in the beginning, and that's price. Points an scrolls cost extra, but don't alter the sound much. If you stick with a simpler A style, with oval or F hole, you can usually get a much better instrument for the same money.
lloydalan
Aug-09-2008, 3:33pm
[There's another avantage of steering clear of points and scrolls in the beginning, and that's price. Points an scrolls cost extra, but don't alter the sound much. If you stick with a simpler A style, with oval or F hole, you can usually get a much better instrument for the same money]
Thanks, Tim...I can certainly relate to that!!
Tim2723
Aug-09-2008, 3:41pm
If I were to gather up five instruments that would have remarkably different voices and give me a wide 'tonal pallet', they would be:
Arch-top oval hole (with or without decorations)
Arch-Top F hole (same)
Flat-top "Irish" style
Bowl-back, 'classical' style
Solid-body electric
With those five basic forms, I would have a significant range of tones that would be obvious even to the casual listener. #All mandolins have their own voices, and sometimes the difference is so subtle that only the expert ear hears it, but those five categories are the 'big guns' of tone. #They are so different that they can be mistaken for entirely separate musical instruments, and not just variations on a theme.
lloydalan
Aug-09-2008, 3:59pm
Thanks, Tim - Your summary really helps place things in perspective.
I just visited your Kindred Spirit website. Great music - Great talent!
Much appreciated!
Tim2723
Aug-09-2008, 4:09pm
You're welcome Lloyd, and thank you too. I'm sure you'll get many more opinions and perspectives, which is what makes mandolincafe such an important resource.
Again, welcome to the Cafe!
Capt. E
Aug-09-2008, 5:22pm
I own a Weber "Bighorn", a two point with f holes. It is very equivalent to F5 styles in the 4K to 5K price range by Weber, Collings and others. I think the differences between two points and F styles is primarily cosmetic. I wouldn't compare it to the hand-made at 10K and above. I understand Bruce Weber plays a Bighorn as his primary instrument. Other than f holes or oval holes, another factor that can affect tone is whether it is x-braced or has tone bars. The wood used for the top (spruce most commonly and cedar next) and the body also has its effects...maple, mahongany, rosewood, etc. My Bighorn has a spruce top with tone bars and a maple body. It is very loud with a beautiful clear ringing tone. My other mandolin is a 70's vintage Japanese made A style with f holes, spruce top, x braced, mahogany body. It is not as loud, but has a very nice rich "woody" tone.
jim_n_virginia
Aug-10-2008, 8:55am
I've been looking at two point's for a while now and thinking about getting one and I cannot hear a difference between them and A and F styled instruments as long as they are similarly holed and made.
I would love to get my hands on a 60's Gibson two point! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif
B. T. Walker
Aug-10-2008, 10:15am
Gearing up for school to start, and I catch myself wondering how many "and"s can appear in a sentence with no commas. Ugh! Must...try...to stop...teaching...for just...one...more...week! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
I've got an Aria two-point, just like the one Jethro holds on his Mel Bay book. It is not as loud as some of the other mandos in the stable, but it does alright. I would expect better volume from one made by Gibson or a reputable independent luthier. I keep the Aria behind my desk at school.
In my opinion, two-points are the classiest looking mandos. No extra points to jab you in the side or leg as with a f-model, but not a plain jane a-model either. Phoenix and Clark certainly hold their own against the scrolly mandos. Dale Ludewig has one of his two-point oval holes in the works for me, and sound clips of his previous efforts are very encouraging. If a two-point is what makes you grab your Wegen, go for it.
OK, here's the deal. You have to start out with the same materials, let's say red spruce and red maple. You have to compare similar instruments, let's say ff hole instruments...no oval holes.
You have to have the same builder, let's say me...I'm familiar with that guy. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
So, an A model has two blocks in the body, nose and tail. A two point has 4, my 2-1/2 has 4, and an F5 has 4. My A models sound a little different from my other instruments with ff holes because, I believe, there are 2 fewer blocks in the body, while the 2-1/2 point, Eclipse and F5 sound quite similar. From my experience, seems as though it's the extra mass of the blocks that does it.
Barry Platnick
Aug-10-2008, 10:34am
Jim
I think there is a60's 2 point Gibson at the old town pickin' parlor in Arvada Co.
http://www.picknparlor.com/mandos.htm
Barry Platnick
Aug-10-2008, 10:36am
Direct link:
http://www.picknparlor.com/Gibson_A5_1966_708.htm
no financial interest
Tim2723
Aug-10-2008, 10:42am
Hans, would you say that the tones are distinctly different in a way that a casual listener in the audience might appreciate, or are the differences subtle and heard by your experienced ear?
man dough nollij
Aug-10-2008, 3:19pm
#Must...try...to stop...teaching...for just...one...more...week!
Ever count apostrophe's? Ack! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
MandoSquirrel
Aug-10-2008, 4:16pm
#Must...try...to stop...teaching...for just...one...more...week!
Ever count apostrophe's? Ack! #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
...Or ellipses?!! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Capt. E
Aug-10-2008, 5:19pm
My second mandolin is my Shiro A style, same company and maker as Aria. Company founded by a man named Shiro Arai. Mahogany body, f holes in a spruce top. Very nice sound, but rather different that my Weber 2 point.
Tim, the casual listener probably wouldn't be able to hear the difference between them without being shown, but discerning players should. The differences are subtle, trebles on A's being what I would call more refined (generally speaking) while on F's they are more blatant, brash, in your face. This (again) has nothing to do with loudness.