To swing or not to swing

[cam]

From what I've heard/understood hornpipes are always played with a swing feel as oposed to straight eighth notes. Reels however are played both ways. I tend to play everything with a swing feel, from a light lilting swing for traditional hornpipes through to a bluegrassy jazz type of swing.

I just found some TAB for The Boys of Ballycastle and playing it without a recording to guide me I find myself playing it like a hornpipe.(It looks like a hornpipe to me with the emphasis on the three heavy quarter notes at the end of each section) So what's the difference or is it open to interpretation?

[cam]

Ooops, I just made a search and see that this topic has already been addressed - sorry. Still if anyone has any further comments I'd like to hear.

[Unseen122]

SOme people get annoyed if you play Reels with swing. My suggestion is accent the first beat but don't swing.

[Bob DeVellis]

There is a great deal of variation. Many Irish players play with very little swing in their hornpipes and associate swing with American playing. Others put in more of a swing. I think this depends partly on where in Ireland people are from. I prefer a bit of bounce but not a pronounced swing. I like my reels in pretty straight time, with the third and sixth notes perhaps given a little more volume but not more time. The really stong offbeat emphasis I sometimes hear just doesn't sound Irish to me -- more bluegrassy. This is totally a personal opinion, however, and others will approach tunes differently.

[Chris "Bucket" Thomas]

Please describe "swinging", I have not heard this before?

Thanks,

Chris

[Unseen122]

Please describe "swinging", I have not heard this before?
Swinging is holding the first note slightly longer than the second like if it was two eighth notes played straight is played as two eighth notes, playing with swing it would be dotted eighth sixteenth. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[Jeff_Stallard]

To try to put it in simpler tunes, instead of:

daah daah daah daah

you swing it by playing

daaah dah daaah dah.

[Dolamon]

As Scott Joplin put it "Syncopation rules the nation".

Playing in the US - the music has a real bias towards being swung / snycopated. Cape Breton fiddlers and a lot of Scots fiddlers have a tendency of driving Irish traditional players up the wall.

For many, it's a short drive.

[Sellars]

"Syncopation rules the nation".

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I just might have to steal that one for my signature http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Sellars]

My personal preference probably would scare a traditionalist away, but my urge would be to swing that baby!

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/blues.gif

[Aidan Crossey]

It's not always a question of whether ... but how much? By the way, the most irritating moments for me in a session occur when I've started a tune with a degree of swing and then, as the other players chime in, they begin to straighten the tune out. I suppose enslemble playing tends to lend itself to a straightforward rhythm, but just once I'd like some of the folks I play with regularly - who are all mostly all good friends by the way - to countenance the possibility of swing rather than playing mechanically with all the subtletly (boo) and power (yay) of a machine-gun!

[Bren]

I like swing, I'm addicted to it and perhaps tend to do it too much. It seems to suit the mandolin more than other instruments.
Like Aidan, I've often started a tune with plenty of bounce only to find the straight four asserted by the majority players, often fiddlers and fluters. There are as many Northern Isles - influenced players up here as Irish or West Highland - influenced players so you'll go from one session where they frown at swing and reassert the straight even flow, to another where everything swings like a swingy thing on a string. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[POB]

I agree with Bren that the mandolin (and any other stringed instrument picked with a plectrum) lends itself to swinging. It's probably due to the simple fact that most pickers stick to alternate down-up picking (apart from triplets and the like) and there's an inherent difference between the mechanics of a downstroke and an upstroke. If you're playing a flute, for example, there's no such in-built distinction between the notes on the down beat and those on the up.

[Aidan Crossey]

And don't let's forget that speed is often the enemy of swing ... it's hard to maintain the "tension" of a swung tune if it's played at too fast a lick. Being someone who prefers music played at a reasonable, steady pace, I get plenty of opportunity to inject tunes with more swing than many of my sessionmates. (Although I do stand accused from time to time by people of playing reels as if they were hornpipes! To which I retort by saying that most people I know play hornpipes as if they were reels, so a wee bit of balance-redress doesn't do any harm!)

[SiFi]

"Although I do stand accused from time to time by people of playing reels as if they were hornpipes! #To which I retort by saying that most people I know play hornpipes as if they were reels, so a wee bit of balance-redress doesn't do any harm!"

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[jmcgann]

Miles Davis: "What's swinging in words? If a guy makes you pat your foot and if you feel it down your back, you don't have to ask anybody if that's good music or not. You can always feel it."

There are 25 different kinds of ways to swing, from Jethro Burns almost-dotted-8th-and-16th to playing very evenly, 50%/50% on each 8th note, but putting in accents around 2 and 4...lots of gradients in the middle. It was Andy Statman who told me "Listen to Ben Webster!" When you hear the original generation of jazz players like Louis Armstrong etc. you don't hear "businessman's bounce" hokey swinging, but real rhythmic command that suits whatever the line that is being played.

So, what about Irish reels and hornpipes? I suggest you listen like crazy to the old recordings by Michael Coleman and James Morrison- two rhythmically different players- and decide which approach suits you the best. And try all the rhythmic colors in between!

And then listen to modern master players too. Listening like crazy is just as important (if not more so) than playing in sessions all the time.

[Aidan Crossey]

And to continue with John's theme ... (I hope I'm reading you right, John, and that we're coming from the same place!) ...

Having listened and having heard that there are a thousand (conservative estimate!) ways to play this music, find your own way of playing it. #John's right that playing in sessions isn't the be-all-and-end-all; in fact, sessions are always a compromise ... those ornaments that you've worked on can't be heard above the pell-mell of the other players, that nice steady pace you've developed suddenly has to be abandoned in favour of the heads-down-no-nonsense of the all-for-one-and-one-for-all. #Sessions are great for ripping out the tunes, for having a few beers with your oul' muckers and for ribald conversation in between the tunes, for sending you home in the early hours of the morning with tunes ringing in your ears and your head full of "I must learn X, Y, Z".

But for developing your own individual voice ... it's a case of hours in the bedroom, the woodshed, the top of a mountain ... wherever you can escape to shut out the world and get on with your music. #It takes some mere moments to find their voice in Irish music, it takes others years ... but however long it takes to find it, it takes a lifetime to refine it.

[cam]

That's an interesting point you make Aidan about finding your voice in Irish music. I'm one of those musicians who came to the traditional stuff the long way round after playing pop and dabbling in all the modern styles for years. I guess I'm still finding my voice as far as traditional music is concerned but I have been wondering about this; I guess finding your voice is a combination of realizing what is already in you (genetics, earliest musical experiences) along with a refinement of your personal likes and dislikes
formed over the years of exploring different musical styles. But somehow I always feel a bit of a modern phoney when I play traditional tunes, even after having listened to and learning mainly traditional music for the past 5 years or so. This raises the question of how important it is to have grown up with the music (which I didn't - I learned my first Chieftains song when I was 17 on a recorder!) Another question that often bugs me is, what is genuine? I'm Scottish, but I have lived in Germany for the past 15 years. While there are a few very good German bands playing traditional Irish music, most of them are, to my ears at least, pretty abysmal. But even with the best bands (and there really are some very fine players) I have the feeling that I am listening to a very well crafted copy and not the real thing. Am I just being a snobby purist? Hmmm.. just some thoughts.

[Gary S]

Andy Statman stressed to me playing very straight time and having different grooves to reach for when you want. He felt that many modern players have this constant swing feel going all the time. He said it was very seductive but is not as effective when it is home base...Gary S

[Jaws]

Personally, I love few things better than a good set of hornpipes on the mandolin. I remember my first pub session, and the only tunes I were able to play well were a couple of hornpipes. Having stumbled along and sat out a lot, those hornpipes still make good memories, and are still some of my favorite tunes.
Getting back to the point, I feel that the mandolin is something near the perfect hornpipe instrument. You can get a great bounce going and accentuate the rythm really well, and the fact that you're not playing at a breakneck speed means its a bit easier to put in a little ornamentation (which is great for me as my triplets aren't up to scratch yet).

[Dolamon]

As Aidan so adroitly put it - "in some sessions, I'll start a tune with swing, and the other players will just flatten it out". Too true - SOME sessions are just that way. It's often impossible to change the way the regular cadre of players have always played - so don't try. We resolved that by starting a small, invitation only "Kitchen Session" once or twice a month with various players who think alike or have the same interests. One of the regulars is a very major league fiddler who will bring what he calls a "soft bow" which he can play in his normal earth shattering style - but it isn't nearly as loud. We set the time and the place and four or six players will show up with their own chosen beverage and choice of instruments - then play and share tunes for two or three hours or until the police are called (I love Irish Cops). Then the session is more or less wound down to a logical - or forced conclusion.

I've learned more in these little casual gatherings than all the big sessions combined. So - Cam perhaps that's an alternative for you to organize a picnic or a relatively small gathering of like minded players who can swing the tunes to your hearts content - or not. It seems that the sharing of the tunes is the most important aspect of any session - that and the amazing pack of lies and rowdy jokes.

[Tom C]

<span style='color:purple'>I call it "bouncy"</span>

[POB]

Some interesting stuff getting raised here about finding one's own voice - the swing thing being only one element in that.

The idea of the small session of similarly-styled musicians strikes me as a good one. I've noticed some musicians who play so many big sessions that they become very adept at modifying their style to suit whomever they're playing with at a given time, but never really develop a distinctive voice of their own.

Don't get me wrong - it's an important skill to have, to be able to meet other musicians at least half-way in terms of style, but I think it's also important to have your own style to return to when you're on your own.

[jmcgann]

I rarely play at sessions anymore- there is often NO musical communication between players, it's often one big ON switch, with none of the give and take of dynamics that makes small band playing so much fun.

Aidan, you are right on! The only thing is that I would suggest for younger/less experienced players that "finding your own voice" is best served by drinking in whatever tradition you are working from (hey, that can be taken two ways! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif )- time has proven this; if you think of any player with a "big personality", you'll find that they logged many many hours in apprenticeship- whether it's Tony Rice, Grisman, Wes Montgomery, Tommy Peoples, Matt Molloy, you name it- they drank deep from the well in order to become the powerful masters that they are.

[cam]

I'll have a dozen crates please of whatever you're drinking Mr McGann. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Aidan Crossey]

John ...

Whatever tradition you are working from ... or whatever tradition is working from you! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I'm quite lucky in that there are one or two sessions I play with (The Blythe Hill Tavern; any session where my mate Ken on guitar appears ... I have a real rapport with his playing) where a musical conversation does indeed take place. Others ... the big ON switch ... you got it in one, John! All noise and velocity ... often quite competitive to boot. No fun, no soul.

[Unseen122]

I love Hornpipes. I said this many times tonight after trying some new ones. I find the swing is eaiser to sight read don;t know why.

[Unseen122]

I Love Hornpipes...