What d'ya know about "bay state" bowl-backs?

[dmac]

I've got a Bay State bowl-back mandolin - what can you tell me about it?

Here's what I can tell you to get things started. The "Bay State" brand was made by John C. Haynes & Co. They had four models of mandolin. And, they seemed to be in the mando biz in the 1890s. That's it.

This mandolin is in pretty good shape except for two points: one is that the machine heads are very difficult to turn so the instrument is tough to tune. I typically have to go past the note I want by loosening the string and then gradually pull the string up to where I want it. If I go to far, I've got to back way off and try again. I'd love to put some new tuners on it to fix that problem.

The other is that the intonation is off on the higher frets. I had to move the (non-glued) bridge to almost the bend in the face of the mando to get it close on the high courses but that makes it out on the low courses. This problem seems unfixable, because the ideal position of the bridge is right on the bend of the face and that would be unstable.

So - loosen the strings and hang it on my wall? Or put the work into it? (I should mention that I want a non-bowl-back mando - this one is very difficult to hold and hence to play - and the sound is weak and plinky.)

Thanks, Cafe-goers.

Dmac.

[Jim Garber]

Here is a rather detailed history of Haynes/Bay State posted some time ago by one of the Cafe's resident historians, Bob DeVellis:

Haynes was a partner of Oliver Ditson, who was primarily involved in music publishing and made a fortune in that line. Haynes was only 15 years old when Ditson hired him in 1845 and he became a partner at the age of 27. While a partner in Oliver Ditson & Co. (he was the "& Co."), Haynes had a music store in his own name, which opened around 1865. This is right around the time when Ditson was expanding by opening spin-off companies around the country, including Lyon & Healy in 1864 in Chicago. At least initially, these operations were essentially distributorships for his publishing products, run by men who had learned the business under Ditson. The Haynes operation clearly was an extension rather than a rival of the Ditson operation. It became the manufacturing wing of Ditson & Co. around 1891 at a time when Haynes ran the company. Haynes had taken over the presidency of the Ditson firm (despite the fact that Oliver's son, Charles, was also a partner at the time) when Oliver died in 1888 and apparently saw an opportunity to combine the parent firm with his semi-separate instrument manufacturing and selling operation. Although Haynes farmed out some of its manufacture and imported its violins (which it re-graduated and set up before sale) from Europe, mandolins and guitars were made in-house. Both the instruments they made and those they re-sold carried a Bay State label. Haynes folded up around 1900. The building where all the Haynes manufacturing took place was taken over by the Vega Co., who manufactured their instruments in that location.

From my files, I think yours is a style one, probably a lowerend one and one of the few I have seen with a circular, rather than oval soundhole. Aside from that I would think that the tuners could be replaced or fixed if you wanted to make it tunable. They may have some corrosion on the gears.

As for the intonation, I am not really sure what the problemis. It also sounds like you may want to get yourself a decent flat or carved instrument and I would suggest doing so. Sometimes the vintage stuff is best left for those who appreciate history vs. those wanting a pleasing playable instrument.

[Martin Jonas]

I'd agree with Jim -- unless you specifically want a vintage bowlback, I'd recommend you get a decent flat or carved mando. That said, I'm sure there are some things that can be done to make yours more playable. Without seeing the mando, I don't know what's going on with the intonation, but I do wonder whether you have put new strings on it? If no, you should do so, as old strings (possibly decades-old) will sound terrible and may be the reason for your intonation problems. If you have already restrung, what strings did you use? Bowlbacks need ultralights. Standard "medium" gauge modern strings, such as d'Addario J74, are intended for carved mandolins and are far too heavy for vintage bowlbacks. Again, that may be at the root of your intonation problems and your dissatisfaction with the tone.

Regarding the tuners, it is probably possible to loosen them up and lubricate them. I would also recommend using some graphite (e.g. from a pencil lead) in the nut and bridge slots. Again, some of your tuning difficulties may be related to the strings, too -- the slots may have been cut for lighter strings than you have at the moment.

Martin

[MikeEdgerton]

Here (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=Search&CODE=02&SID=4884844b0eb5ff20) are two previous threads.

[Donc]

https://jakewildwood.blogspot.com/
Here's a repair guy in Vt that seems to be having a lot of success
and a lot of respect for some of these bowlbacks.
Sounds like he can make them sing...

[DavidKOS]

The other is that the intonation is off on the higher frets. I had to move the (non-glued) bridge to almost the bend in the face of the mando to get it close on the high courses but that makes it out on the low courses. This problem seems unfixable, because the ideal position of the bridge is right on the bend of the face and that would be unstable.
.

Like the previous posters say, this is not a high-end instrument.

First, the bridge would need to be at an angle to make the high E and the low G intonate properly at the 12th fret.

Depending on the bridge and where is sits on the cant on the top, you may have to do some adjustment to the bridge itself to stabilize it. On some old bowlbacks the bridge may be past the break. It's hard to say for sure without examining the instrument.

New extra light gauge strings may also help.

The problem is fixable, though.


(I should mention that I want a non-bowl-back mando - this one is very difficult to hold and hence to play - and the sound is weak and plinky.)


No matter what you do, it's always going to be a bowl back.

As for sounding weak and plinky, that would depend on the mandolin itself and the player.

If you are not experienced in holding a bowlback mandolin, it can seem difficult, but those of us that learned the Italian way find it easy to hold even standing.

207786

207787

Notice how the right forearm comes around the instrument and the angle of the neck in relation to the player's body.

[Jim Garber]

https://jakewildwood.blogspot.com/
Here's a repair guy in Vt that seems to be having a lot of success
and a lot of respect for some of these bowlbacks.
Sounds like he can make them sing...

This is a 15 year old thread and the OP is probably no longer interested or certainly hasn't posted here is a long time.

[DavidKOS]

This is a 15 year old thread and the OP is probably no longer interested or certainly hasn't posted here is a long time.

My fault - I didn't bother to check the date of the OP's post. I only checked the post that was recent.

[Sue Rieter]

I like your graphic, Jim :))

[Jim Garber]

I like your graphic, Jim :))

I was thinking of making tee shirts. :)