Bluegrass mandolin... without the chop

[Staceyb]

Is there such a concept?

I think that the mandolin has more pontential in bluegrass than just lead, and chops... Maybe letting the chords sustain, strumming rhythm perhaps?

[Chris Biorkman]

Blasphemy!

[Staceyb]

Blasphemy!
How so?

[Chris Biorkman]

That was a joke.

[Staceyb]

That was a joke.
Yeah.. I got that. I was wanting ur opinion on it.

[Chris Biorkman]

People who play bluegrass generally have a pretty narrow sense of the way it should be played. There are people who do more interesting stuff with their rythym playing. Chris Thile comes to mind.

[Staceyb]

People who play bluegrass generally have a pretty narrow sense of the way it should be played. There are people who do more interesting stuff with their rythym playing. Chris Thile comes to mind.
All of my playing is pretty much hymnals... I play at church. We have a guitarist, bassist, and pianist, so that kinda isn't your "standard" bluegrass ensamble... I thought maybe this would give me a chance to explore other possibilities of the mandolin.

[Jim Broyles]

There are some good bluegrass songs without the chop. "Can't You Hear me Callin'?" by Bill Monroe didn't use a chop in the original version. There are others. When you are the only mandolin and it's straight ahead bluegrass, you'll probably want to chop to keep the rhythm steady, but as a second or third mando, which I have been at some jam sessions, you can play open chord strumming, double stop tremolo and single note fills as long as you don't step on the vocals. At church, with your group, you can try it all and see what works for the songs. #

[Tim]

On the road and can't look it up but I seem to recall an interview with John Duffey where he said he rarely chopped. Of course some people say the Country Gentlemen and Seldom Scene weren't really bluegrass.

[mandolirius]

<I thought maybe this would give me a chance to explore other possibilities of the mandolin.> #


You already have that chance. Mandolins in bluegrass bands can do lots of other things besides chopping rhythm and playing lead. Listen to John Reischman or David Grisman play bluegrass, for example. I could list off a bunch of techniques (tremolo, double stops etc) but essentially, it's just playing the instrument.

As has been alluded to, Monroe didn't chop much in the early days. Most say it's because the band had such great internal rhythm, he didn't have to. To me, that says the chop should be a fluid kind of thing, depending on what else is going on.

Another thing to think about is the makeup of the band and the style of the players. Some banjo plays "chop" more than others and it's not particularly necessary for two instruments to be doing that. If a band has a dobro player, they will chop a lot.

And lastly, there are different kinds of chop. That's one of the things that has kept me interested in bluegrass for so long. The rhythm of it is so subtle and can be affected by just the slightest change. Also where you chop - some are right on the beat, some like to lead it a bit and some actually lag behind it just a fraction. A lot depends on how the bass player is playing.

[Staceyb]

<I thought maybe this would give me a chance to explore other possibilities of the mandolin.> #


You already have that chance. Mandolins in bluegrass bands can do lots of other things besides chopping rhythm and playing lead. Listen to John Reischman or David Grisman play bluegrass, for example. I could list off a bunch of techniques (tremolo, double stops etc) but essentially, it's just playing the instrument.

As has been alluded to, Monroe didn't chop much in the early days. Most say it's because the band had such great internal rhythm, he didn't have to. To me, that says the chop should be a fluid kind of thing, depending on what else is going on.

Another thing to think about is the makeup of the band and the style of the players. Some banjo plays "chop" more than others and it's not particularly necessary for two instruments to be doing that. If a band has a dobro player, they will chop a lot.

And lastly, there are different kinds of chop. That's one of the things that has kept me interested in bluegrass for so long. The rhythm of it is so subtle and can be affected by just the slightest change. Also where you chop - some are right on the beat, some like to lead it a bit and some actually lag behind it just a fraction. A lot depends on how the bass player is playing.
When you mentioned tremolo, did you mean using it on a sustained note when playing lead, or a whole other method of playing?

[kudzuklunker]

In my very limited experience, seems like singers want to hear only the chop while singing. It is very much like the snare, kinda keeps the speed where it should be.

[Gutbucket]

Roland White is an exponant of less chop. He said it's a cliche thats overdone. He might be right, especially in a jam setting. You don't need 4 mandolins chopping. Some one can play open chords or cross-picking the chords while someone else chops. Keeps the wood chips from building up.

[UnityGain]

Disclamer: I dont play much bluegrass so most of this is theoretical. #But I listen to a lot.

I am of the opinion that only one instrument should be doing a short duration backbeat at a time. #Most often its mandolin because its traditional and it works quite well. #But banjos can do it, so can guitars and even fiddles with a talented bower. #The key is that they shouldn't all be doing it. #If the guitar player starts play chop like muted chords, play open ringing chords. #If the banjo player takes over the backbeat, play some crosspicking ala banjo rolls. The idea is to do something that another person isn't doing. #I think having a rotation on keeping the beat (assuming everyone has good enough time) can ad a huge amount to the feel of a song. #Different verses can have different arrangements.

Another thing is to be really concous of the tone of your chop, as well as what chord for you use. #G doesnt allways have to be a 7523. #452X is great. #755X is fun. #455X is neat. #And if your in a 7523, try only pressing down one finger and letting the others be muted. #it can really ad a lot of dimension to the chop. #Plus pick angle, amount of "dig" and especially where one the string you hit can also change your chop from warm and round to dry and cutting.

[MikeEdgerton]

Crosspicking.

[allenhopkins]

Staceyb, if you're mostly playing in church, you're probably going to be playing a lot of songs/tunes that aren't "standard bluegrass." Plus -- no banjo, no fiddle, just guitar, bass, piano and mandolin. Doing "chops" probably makes little sense. Doing chords may be less needed than melodies, countermelodies, harmonies, etc. Single string work, with tremolo on the slower numbers, very well might fit the musical situation better. Mandolin's very versatile; it can do melody, harmony or rhythm/chords, and in a band such as you describe, your role would be quite different from your role in a typical bluegrass band.

[mandolirius]

<When you mentioned tremolo, did you mean using it on a sustained note when playing lead, or a whole other method of playing?>

Both. Tremolo can be used in a huge variety of ways. It's a very expressive technique. For example, if you listen to "Bluegrass Breakdown" and "Somewhere My Love", you hear two quite different examples of tremolo.

[Jordan Ramsey]

I'm with Mike, crosspicking. Especially if somebody else has the backbeat, but in bluegrass that chop drives the music so much. I think it's just as important as the bass in an up-tempo song, somebody's gotta do it.

Jordan Ramsey
www.myspace.com/crosspicker (http://www.myspace.com/crosspicker)

[Ken Berner]

allenhopkins hits the nail on the head with his remarks about the role of mandolin in hymn-playing. More single-string melody picking, harmony, tremolo and some double stops really work better than anything. Some chording works, but in many hymns it would take some very rapid chord changes, as hymns were not written with mandolin in mind. Cross-picking would work beautifully in some cases.

[GRW3]

The 'Chop' is the classic Bluegrass mandolin rhythmic device. It is a fundamental element just like 1,4,5 chords. You must know how to do it effectively to say you play Bluegrass.

That being said, it is not the only device. In 3/4 music you probably want the 2,3 to be a little lighter with a little more ringy sustain than in 4/4 or cut time. A lot of the time if you listen to the tune it will suggest a rhythm. Some tunes and songs like "You Are My Sunshine" want a more open chorded uke-ish type of rhythm. You have to get with the tune to know what to do.

Another device is the use of the sustained tremolo. Harmonized with the melody or singer it's a lift to the music. You can start and/or finish post phrase fils with tremolo.

I've never been a big fan of listening to music with earplugs expedience and convenience while traveling led me to go IPod. While I don't thing earplugs are going to replace the listening experience of a high dollar stereo there are some advantages to musicians in training. With the ear phones you can hear much more definition about individual player. (Noise canceling over the ear phones are the best.

[Staceyb]

Thanks for the adivce guys... I'm new at mandolin, been playing about 2 months. Pretty much taught myself so far, with help from online videos.

[J.Albert]

I recall that Joe Val used less of a "chop" and more "open chording" in many of his songs.

Sounded good, too.

- John

[mandolirius]

<Thanks for the adivce guys... I'm new at mandolin, been playing about 2 months. Pretty much taught myself so far, with help from online videos.>

Two months is pretty fresh. Why don't you tell us more about your playing situation? With piano, bass and guitar is there a lot of rhythm already? Are you expected to contribute to that or play fills, leads...that sort of thing? What can you do, rhythm-wise? Can you play chop chords or are you using mostly two and three finger chords with open strings in them?

[Gerard Dick]

Been doing mandolin in Church for almost 3 years now. Haven't chopped anything yet. Crosspicking, harmony lines, arpeggios, chord melodies some pentatonic improv are all the tools I've needed in this setting. I also have an OM and if the song list is really dull I'll play that and fly below the radar and just do chords. It sounds like a guitar.

[Larry Simonson]

Three things IMO you need to do: chop, fill, lead. #Knowing when to do any of these can be daunting, but if your leader (every band has one)is nice, he/she will help you. I believe the best bands have scripted the role of all the players at all times. # #

A couple of generalities: #You won't make too many enemies if your only skill is a nice crisp timely chop, and secondly, never ever play the melody behind a singer.

[Jim Broyles]

# #

...#You won't make too many enemies if your only skill is a nice crisp timely chop...
I don't know about that. A chop in a song that doesn't need it is kind of obnoxious sounding to most people.

[Givensman]

Bass is the beat; mandolin is the snare drum.

One thing all great players have.......is a great chop. Not a "string" chop.......or fanning as I call it........but a good woody, drivin' chop......

[Jim Broyles]

I'm talking about playing for church music, to which this thread has now evolved, not bluegrass.

[CES]

I've been working on my chop/rhythm a lot lately, and I noticed at the local symphony/fireworks show Wednesday that I was clapping on the backbeat...it took a little while to convince my wife I wasn't terribly rhythmically challenged but rather happy that I was finally unconsciously doing it that way http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Stacey, there's no right answer to your question. I would say your use of chop is primarily determined by what the music dictates, and secondarily by how your band defines each player's role from song to song. All options listed above are considerations, and some of them I'm not nearly advanced enough to do well. Do what fits well with the music and the band, and as your skills grow you'll be able to influence more what and how you play, because you'll have a better arsenal of techniques.

Oh, and have fun with it!

[fred d]

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif Gee no chop no f9 I would guess no bluegrass

[mandozilla]

"I's there such a concept?

I think that the mandolin has more pontential in bluegrass than just lead, and chops... Maybe letting the chords sustain, strumming rhythm perhaps?"


HUH! I'm calling the Bluegrass Police! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

[Greg H.]

If you listen to Sam Bush's playing on THE recording (Rice's Manzanita of course) you'll find that, yes Bush does a great job with chops, but also there's a lot of open chord strums for expression and a lot of lead behind the vocals. I feel that that album along with perhaps some of Jesse McReynolds' crosspicking shows a wide variety of what the mandolin can do in bluegrass.

[Red Henry]

Plenty of good players have done without a conventional chop altogether: Red Rector, Jesse McReynolds, Tim O'Brien-- Bill Monroe, before about 1950-- above all, don't let anybody tell you what to play!-- follow your ears, and play what you think sounds good. As Murphy says: "If it SOUNDS right, it IS right!"

Red

[Gutbucket]

Plenty of good players have done without a conventional chop altogether: Red Rector, Jesse McReynolds, Tim O'Brien-- Bill Monroe, before about 1950-- above all, don't let anybody tell you what to play!-- follow your ears, and play what you think sounds good. As Murphy says: "If it SOUNDS right, it IS right!"

Red
After an insane day at work, that's the most intelligent thing I've heard all day. I love to chop on a good up-tempo song, but there are so many other alternatives available to today's players. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Staceyb]

"I's there such a concept?

I think that the mandolin has more pontential in bluegrass than just lead, and chops... Maybe letting the chords sustain, strumming rhythm perhaps?"


HUH! I'm calling the Bluegrass Police! #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif
No need to worry... I'm working on chopping as we speak...

[lgc]

Of course there are other ways for a mandolin to back up a band in BG than the chop. I would say, however, that if you are two months into playing then you should invest some time into learning the chop and being familiar with it. Mandolin playing fills, tremoloing, or crosspicking the whole time(which happens a lot) tends to clutter the music and leaves little room for others to take a defined fill. It is also one of the most reliable and accessable early rythmic devises for smeone starting their long journey into the mando.

Another option, especially when singing-which Monroe seemed to employ was dropping out. Less instruments brings the voices out more.

[Mattg]

"People who play bluegrass generally have a pretty narrow sense of the way it should be played."

People who don't play bluegrass generally have a narrow sense of what bluegrassers are thinking. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

That's probably not true either. As a bluegrass fan in the west, I think we have a pretty wide view of what fits into the genre. Since it is not native to the west, we don't have as much tradition built around it. Many of us are first generation bluegrassers. Having said that, a mando chop really helps drive an up tempo song or high energy song. Otherwise, it sounds good when the mando is providing fills and sustained notes in the form of tremolos. There are lot's of ways to add texture with the instrument.

[GRW3]

I swear if you listen to the music it will tell you what the rhythm should be. At least that's how it works for me. Surely I'm not alone in hearing the music in my head along with the session. I just try to make the mandolin sound like what I am hearing. Try being the operative word as my brain plays a lot better mandolin than my hands (it tries not to be uppity about that since the hands have the plate to mouth franchise locked down http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif ).

[Dan Adams]

We've been playing as a duet, one guitar and one mandolin, for the last 18 months. One of my challenges has been to play without a 'bluegrass' chop on every tune and song to try to fill-in and make a fuller sound. More sustain, open chords, tremelo fill-ins, etc... It has been interesting and an educational experience. I think in the long run, I'll be a better mandolin player, or so I ponder... Dan

[Dan Krhla]

I enjoyed Gates' picking when he was not taking a break. Looks like he mixes chop, strum & fills? Anyone else do this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beGXjuN8dao

[Jkf_Alone]

if you are playing mostly in traditional style for the hymns, i REALLY would not chop. If you are playing with ANY percussion, i would not chop.

think of yourself more as a 2nd violin when you play hymns. the easiest ( and most of the time best sounding) option is to just slowly and articulately strum a chord on the 1. you can add so much beauty and fullness to a hymn by just doing simple things.

here are some things i do.

- strum open chords ( i know, its easy and it ain't grass, but it sure sounds better on celtic stle hymns)

- Tremolo double stops or single notes don't distract the congregation with non typical harmony lines. your job is to fill out the music, not attract attention. also you can simply pick or strum single notes and double stops.

- a slightly chopped chord listen to chris thile and mike marshall on into the cauldron for this. it sounds like classical violin staccato and fits in great with almost any style of music.

- the full chop works on fast gospel #'s but sounds a bit cheesy on 3/4 time. ( my wife always breaks out into laughter when i chop the 2&3).
if you listen to older grass, you'll here Bill monroe didn't always chop, and often would stop chopping when he sang, and use different syncompations. also his chop was more chord and less "thunk" than you hear today.


ALSO:

don't take all the fills. work out 1 or 2 fills per song at most. use your fills to inform people of what you'll be doing next. " ok the little paddle shaped thing is tinklin' were going to the refrain"

and rememeber YOU DONT HAVE TO PLAY ALL THE TIME. if you cant figure out what to do in the song, just lay off your instrument and sing.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif