New to vintage, let's talk old oval hole a's

[Rick Crenshaw]

I have two good bluegrass F style mandolins. (Daleys) If you were to want to play some blues, old-time, Celtic stuff (in that order) what would you look for? What models and years have you found in vintage Gibsons that do it for you? I'm all new to this btw, and just need a starting point to go looking from. I'm not even sure of the differences in models A, A0, A2, A2Z, A3, A4. (I do know what an A5 is.)

[atetone]

OK,,, here is my very brief, condensed version based on my experience,,,
I have 6 of these vintage Gibson oval holes.
The one thing that they have in common other than the hole is that they all need or needed work to become properly playable.
The teens models have wider chunkier necks than the 20s models and generally sound a bit more tubby.
The teens models do not have a trussrod.
Most of the 20s models do have a trussrod.
The 20s snakehead models are the most sought after and therefore the more costly.
The 20s snakehead A4 was the top of the line but the A2Z seems to command equal or higher prices.
The teens "paddleheads" are priced considerably lower but are not necessarily a lesser instrument.
In my opinion the teens paddleheads are a steal at $1000 to $1500 which they can be bought at regularly.
Not all vintage Gibson ovals are consistently good. They vary so be aware.
My current favourite is a 1908 A4 Blackface which I just got back from Gail Hester after some excellent TLC.
Oddly it has a very slim V neck for a vintage Gibson and it is very comfortable for me.
I am hooked on these old babies. I like the mojo.

[Rick Crenshaw]

Thanks, that helps a lot. Keep the comments and experienced opinions coming.

[fatt-dad]

The one thing that they have in common other than the hole is that they all need or needed work to become properly playable.
Ha! I've had my '20 A3 for 23 years and it's see a glue pot at least three times. It helps to have someone you trust to work the glue too.

f-d

[527]

I hope mine doesn't deteriorate then! I've got an old oval hole that hasn't been touched and hasn't needed anything, still sounds great and wasn't that expensive.

[markishandsome]

I've always considered the flatiron pancake style as the ultimate bluead/oldtime/celtic mando. I don't know exactly what sound you're looking for, but why limit yourself to old gibson As?

[mandroid]

2 '22 'paddlehead' A's have found their way home with me, over the years. an A0 brown, pre truss rod, with an aluminum upper bridge piece,
and an A4 with truss rod, for which I got a fossil walrus Tusk Ivory upper bridge portion .. , are both nice instruments ..

[Bob DeVellis]

Frankly, I'd use the instruments you have. As you get further into the new styles, you'll develop a more specific preference for certain qualities that you can then look for in a "new" mandolin. Pretty much any mandolin can play any style of music and for none of the styles you've described is using an f-hole mandolin unprecedented. When you get more into those styles, you might favor one over another and then you can really zero in on an ideal instrument for the sound you're after. For example, I feel that nothing can touch a Sobell for Irish stuff, not only because of its tone but also its wide neck works really well for a style based heavily on melodic ornamentation and not much on harmony (chords). But I suspect not many blues players would list it as their first choice. Just my opinions, of course.

[Cullowheekid]

Type in Jim Richter on a youtube search.He plays some mighty fine blues on a old Gibson F-2.

[OregonMike]

I have found the snakeheads to be reliably good and some great. I like my '24 snake. For some reason I really love my '16 A0. They have both been pro-set up and selectively re-fretted. The snake is loud but the teens is sweet and bell like.

If I were to shop again today I'd hunt down a snakehead A Jr. for the money and sidestep all the collectors driving up snakehead prices. A2Zs seem just like A1s with an extra sound hole ring and back binding for another 3K.

YMMV

[squirrelabama]

OregonMike's advice is good. If you're looking for tone, and you're not a collector, grab a snakehead A or an A1 (with truss rod) 1923-1924 (and some 25's too!). FWIW, I have heard (this has never been verified) that the snakes had more attention paid to the graduations of the tops and backs, thus the consistant and distinct tone. I am not certain, but I believe that Ajr's do not have a truss rod. A lot of good sounding Ajrs out there, but I'd get one with a working truss rod. Not sure if that added strength helps stave off woxy necks that can be a tone soak. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[atetone]

The way that I understand it is that when Gibson came out with the snakeheads with the slimmer neck the A Jr was fitted with a non-adjustable metal rod to add strength.
The rest of the lineup were fitted with adjustable rods.

[markishandsome]

FWIW, I have heard (this has never been verified) that the snakes had more attention paid to the graduations of the tops and backs, thus the consistant and distinct tone.

A myth is born...

[atetone]

Truth?, Myth? I don't know but it seems that most people agree that there is a noticable difference between the sounds of the teens paddleheads and the 20s snakeheads.
Some prefer the teens and some prefer the snakes.
Maybe it is the different neck profile; the string alignment in the head from the nut to the posts; graduations; the trussrod;,,, I don't know, but there are enough differences for it to make sense that the sound is #(generally) different.
Whether it is any single one of these changes or the combined effect of all of them is unknown to me, I just agree that they are different.
I like both eras and as a matter of fact I now have a 1908 Orville label A4 that is very different again in construction features and is a great mando.
I think that if you can find a good example from any of the eras that you could end up being very pleased.

[Gail Hester]

The differences between pre-Loar paddlehead and snakehead mandolins becomes obvious when you measure them, while apart or with a Hacklinger gauge. #They both are wonderful instruments but there are some significant differences in the way they are carved that makes them different sounding instruments. #Without re-hashing, here is a thread from a couple years ago on the subject. #I have continued to keep track of these numbers on a much larger sample since I originally posted this and the differences have been consistent.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin....uations (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=7;t=33023;hl=snakehead+grad uations)

[first string]

Is a truss rod even necessary on a short neck oval? I've played a bunch of old Gibson oval As with no truss rod, and none of them had any neck issues.

[Rick Crenshaw]

Thanks for the feedback so far. I'm just gonna have to go to Gruhn's and play some of these. I hear that the variances in the teens paddleheads is pretty broad.

[Zigeuner]

Frankly, I'd use the instruments you have. #As you get further into the new styles, you'll develop a more specific preference for certain qualities that you can then look for in a "new" mandolin. #Pretty much any mandolin can play any style of music and for none of the styles you've described is using an f-hole mandolin unprecedented. #When you get more into those styles, you might favor one over another and then you can really zero in on an ideal instrument for the sound you're after. #For example, I feel that nothing can touch a Sobell for Irish stuff, not only because of its tone but also its wide neck works really well for a style based heavily on melodic ornamentation and not much on harmony (chords). #But I suspect not many blues players would list it as their first choice. #Just my opinions, of course.
This is very sage advice. I've heard some wonderful music played on some pretty bad-looking instruments, That would include but not be limited to guitars, mandolins, pianos and fiddles.

I will say, though, that the wonderful little A round hole mandolins, whether Gibson or some other brand, are as versatile an instruemt as there is. I've seen and heard them do bluegrass, pop, classical and blues very convincingly.

My '17 A3 was in need of some assistance when I got it some 25 years ago but it's been a solid player since them.

I don't think you can go wrong with a round hole. I love the sound and so do many others. As bobd says, at some point you can branch out and add to your complement of instruments. As far as I know, there is no shortage of mandolin builders these days. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[BlueMountain]

The Mandolin Archive seems to have no photos of Ajrs. with identifiable adjustable truss rods. That doesn't mean that none had them, but I can't spot them on the photos. I don't know if they have non-adjustable metal supports. Maybe one of you can take one through airport security and ask the person at the X-ray machine to check and let you know. Some might refuse, but some might tell you.

[hoffmannia2k7]

Kays sound nice. A lot of blues and old-time was played on what was to be had and that should stil be the case.

A nice sounding f-holed mandolin works GREAT for old-time and blues imHo

[cooper4205]

The Mandolin Archive seems to have no photos of Ajrs. with identifiable adjustable truss rods. That doesn't mean that none had them, but I can't spot them on the photos. I don't know if they have non-adjustable metal supports. Maybe one of you can take one through airport security and ask the person at the X-ray machine to check and let you know. Some might refuse, but some might tell you.
I've got one of the very late A-jr.'s, SN 826xx (I'm at work, don't have it memorized) and it had a maple strip in the neck, no truss rod. When I had a new fingerboard put on, I had the luthier put a CF rod in there for stability. I'll have to see if I have a pic when I get home.

[Darryl Wolfe]

Gail,

I reviewed the old thread link on thicknesses and find it very curious that the particular differences produce what they produce. I would have thought some of them would have been the other way around.

Generality: Thicker dimensions of the paddlehead producing tubbier sound..go figure

[Gail Hester]

Darryl, you bring up a good point and I think just noting some general differences in thickness in key areas is probably an oversimplification on my part. There are several things going on that I would attribute to the difference between the sound of paddle and snakehead mandolins. There is a difference in the way they are carved as well. The paddle heads tend to be inconsistent from one to the next and the graduations from thick to thin are erratic or lumpy. At some point, later teens or so, they seemed to become more consistently carved with very refined graduations/transitions from thick to thin and very even all around the plates during the Loar period. They must have made a conscious effort at this refinement because the difference compared to earlier mandolins is obvious. My observation is that this along with the different thicknesses in key areas produces a more clear or focused and punchy sound.

[Darryl Wolfe]

Gail, That certainly makes some sense now. One inconsistency I have noted while inspecting some snakeheads is the depth of the inside carving of the top.

I believe they would occassionally get their pattern out of adjustment and not take enough wood out on the inside. This resulted in the same shape, but there would be a wide flat spot all the way around the kerfing that you could feel thru the soundhole. This kinda killed some of the response at the recurve area.

Long and short of it...if you play a snakehead that is sortof a dud, feel inside the soundhole

[JeffD]

I will say, though, that the wonderful little A round hole mandolins, whether Gibson or some other brand, are as versatile an instruemt as there is. I've seen and heard them do bluegrass, pop, classical and blues very convincingly...

I don't think you can go wrong with a round hole.
Yes, yes, and yes. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Rick Crenshaw]

I'm eating this stuff up, folks. I'm still going to end up with a vintage A at some point, but my search has been temporarily postponed as I have just purchased a used National reso-mando, thanks to the Cafe Classifieds, and I purchased a funky laminated top Framus so that I have the raucuous sound for blues. Now, I just need to eventually end up with a good vintage A and I'll have a pretty good pallate of tone for blues to bluegrass. In the meantime, my woody toned blues will have to come from one the Framus or one of my f-hole F models (and I'm not selling any of those). But... keep the discussion going I'm still reading and learning and I WILL end up with one of these. Oh yes... one will be mine... one day.

[theBlood]

I have a couple of oval holes that I like a lot (1918 A-1 & 1921 F-4). I've played a number of gigs with both of them this year so I'm pretty familiar with their tonal qualities.

I've played several snakeheads (3?)in the last year and had a high expectation based on what I've been reading on this forum, but I didn't really hear that much of a difference, interestingly.

My take is that, while general understandings of what went into construction are important and decisive factors in determining an instrument's value, its very possible to find some incredible sounding instruments that are just outside the ideal construction periods. After all, Gibson had been putting in a pretty serious effort towards making nice mandolins prior to 1922.

It may well happen that I'll play the snakehead soon that will change my tune, I suppose...

[Gail Hester]

Darryl, I’m not sure if this is what you were referring to but this snakehead that I’m working on right now has too much meat in the head block area. So much so that it interrupts the recurve. You could certainly feel it through the sound hole.

[Darryl Wolfe]

Gail, that is exactly what I mean. #Well, not exactly because a couple that I was referring to had 2X that amount of "flat" going around toward the waist (soundhole centerline) killing the recurve also. #That one has alot, but I've seen much worse. #So in summary, there are some differences in that area during the snakehead period. #I believe they were mistake/setup problems that they let go through