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Bob A
Jun-27-2004, 10:40pm
Martinjonas has noted in his threads about his Ceccherini that it bears the Alban Voigt label. Mine does as well; and has a number (2302) to boot, written on the bottom left of the label.
The Ceccherini on the Sinier - de Ridder site is also so labelled, and numbered.

Does anyone have any info on this connection? Are these numbers, as I suspect, something to do with the Voigt firm, or are they perhaps some sort of serial number by the maker?

Does anyone, for that matter, have any info on the Alban Voigt firm? Being far from the white cliffs myself, I toss this out in hope that someone more knowledgeable can scratch my itching curiosity.

And Victor, what of your Ceccherini? Any reason to suspect it too comes from Voigt-land?

Of course, there is little of real musical value in this sort of question, but once something like this attracts one's attention, a bit of salve is necessary to soothe the irritation. And I do enjoy having background info on my instruments, for reasons that are doubtless rooted deep in my preconscious makeup, and best left unexamined.

Jim Garber
Jun-28-2004, 9:02am
There is an extensive family of violin makers in Markneukirchen by that name. There is an Albin (note spelling) who worked in Philadelphia in the 1920s. And there was an Ernst working and dealing in London as late as 1960. Possibly that guy worked under the Alban name or it wsas a relative whoi was a dealer/importer of mandolins. That's all I can find at the moment, courtesy of Henley's Violin & Bow makers.

Jim

vkioulaphides
Jun-28-2004, 10:00am
[QUOTE]"...Victor, what of your Ceccherini? Any reason to suspect it too comes from Voigt-land?"

It does, indeed, Bob. Jim, I understand the "Alban" bit as a first name, as in Alban Berg et al, not as the surname of a hypothetical partnership, as in Alban & Voigt, Ltd. My take, at least.

Jim Garber
Jun-28-2004, 10:15am
I was just doing some sort of "intelligent" guessing. I figure, there was a mandolin craze in the UK back then and that there were violin makers from Germany tranplanted there who also dealt in mandolins. Alban Voigt had some sort of arrangement with Sr. Ceccherini as (likely) sole importers of the mandolins or perhaps sole distributor or even retailer.

Jim

Martin Jonas
Jun-28-2004, 10:40am
As I said over in the other thread, a google search on "Alban Voigt" gives references to the same company also being "exclusive distributors" or "sole agents" for Spanish guitars made by Antonio Carlos Garcia in the 1860s (two different references for that, interestingly), for Portuguese guitars by J.M. Andrade in the "mid 19c" and for German pianos made by Haake around 1900. #One reference gives Alban Voigt as a piano importer in 1914. #With that sort of range, they may well have been a relatively large establishment. #Possibly related, but maybe not, there is a music manuscript by "Alban Voigt" with the title "The Roman Titius" in the Smithsonian, department of anthropology, division of ethnology. #The manuscript is listed as being in a box file with a fairly wild mixture of other manuscripts, all of them relating to instruments (e.g. a report by the US Vice-Consul in Dresden on the "German Musical Instrument Industry on 1936"). #Finally, but possibly really unrelated, an "Alban Voigt" was active as a translator from English to German in 1914.

Whatever one makes of that, the name "Alban Voigt" does strike me as German more than English. #The address "14 Edmund Place" doesn't exist anymore -- it's one of the streets that were demolished when the Barbican was built. #I'm not sure whether this was an affluent area or not in Victorian times, but I think it would have been just outside the City and just inside Shoreditch or Hoxton, which were boroughs most associated with poorish immigrants.

Martin

Marc
Jun-28-2004, 4:09pm
My guess is that they were similar to Clifford Essex who imported and branded lots of stuff but as far as I know didn't actually make anything themselves - but I stand to be corrected.

Am I right in thinking the Ceccherinis are virtually identical to De Meglios? I know De Meglio made instruments sold under other labels, is this the case with Ceccherinis - are they the same instrument in fact? Did De Meglio make instruments which were then branded Ceccherinis (and then sold as Alban Voight?!)
Marc
www.belmando.com

Martin Jonas
Jun-28-2004, 5:26pm
Am I right in thinking the Ceccherinis are virtually identical to De Meglios? I know De Meglio made instruments sold under other labels, is this the case with Ceccherinis - are they the same instrument in fact? Did De Meglio make instruments which were then branded Ceccherinis (and then sold as Alban Voight?!)
I don't think so. Mine is quite similar to a de Meglio, although the decorations are not that close, but Bob's, Victor's and the one at the French site all have the unique double top construction, and the hooks holding the strings down, which de Meglio didn't have on his. The decoration on the French one (and unless I'm remembering wrongly also on Victor's) are very similar to mine.

Martin

Jim Garber
Jun-28-2004, 7:50pm
For those who don't have one handy, here is a Ceccherini label.

vkioulaphides
Jun-29-2004, 8:12am
[QUOTE]"Am I right in thinking the Ceccherinis are virtually identical to De Meglios?"

Not quite; similar but not nearly identical. The similarities include the tortoiseshell pickquard that is simply laid (not inlaid) on top of the soundboard, the cherry-wood (a.k.a. tulip-wood) binding, and the overall shape of the bowl. The significant differences are as Martin describes: the double top and the corollary #"anchors" under the bridge, the floral fingerboard markers (as opposed to the de Meglio 1A dots), etc. It so happens that Martin's Ceccherini is very, very de Meglio-esque.

Most importantly, however, I think that the intentions of the two luthiers regarding the tone quality of their respective #instruments were materially different: The de Meglios I know always have the jolly tinkle I associate with the quintessential folk-mandolin sound; to my ear, that sound is THE sound of the instrument, as heard in the streets and alleys of yesteryear, in the gazebos and under the occasional pergola. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif On the other hand, my Ceccherini has a far more complex tonal spectrum (perhaps because of the double top?...), and one that sounds more "classical" to my ear.

Then again, my ear is a culturally biased one...

Martin Jonas
Jun-29-2004, 8:58am
It so happens that Martin's Ceccherini is very, very de Meglio-esque.

On the other hand, my Ceccherini has a far more complex tonal spectrum (perhaps because of the double top?...), and one that sounds more "classical" to my ear.
I have been wondering whether the lack of a double top in mine is an indication of a bottom-of-the-range model or alternatively an indication of an earlier model. I guess in the absence of serial numbers, model numbers, years or any other identifying information on the label, we'll never know.

I'd love for you to play mine, Victor, so that we could know whether the tonal characteristics you mention are attributable to the double top construction or the luthier's philosophy. Maybe some day...

I've also been wondering whether the fact that all the Ceccherinis we've collectively seen have the Voigt label may be an indication that the unqualified "Sole Agent" remark on the label is meant literally and Ceccherini sent every single mandolin he made to London. It's a curious contrast with the Spanish guitar labels that I mentioned above, where it says "Sole Agent for Great Britain and the Colonies: Alban Voigt".

Martin

Martin Jonas
Sep-08-2004, 6:46am
Am I right in thinking the Ceccherinis are virtually identical to De Meglios? I know De Meglio made instruments sold under other labels, is this the case with Ceccherinis - are they the same instrument in fact? Did De Meglio make instruments which were then branded Ceccherinis (and then sold as Alban Voight?!)
Marc
I'm reviving this oldish thread, as I've just remembered Marc's reference to De Meglio instruments being sold under different brand names. I think we came to the conclusion that Ceccherini was not one of them, but I now have reason to wonder whether the new mandolin I've just bought for my mother might come into this category.

This one is labelled Carlo Rinaldi (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3745060278) and looks an awful lot like a de Meglio to my eyes. I haven't received it yet, so I can't say whether workmanship and/or tone quality is comparable. Does anybody (Marc?) know whether Carlo Rinaldi was a label of convenience for de Meglio (or indeed anything else about this maker)?

Martin

Jim Garber
Sep-08-2004, 6:56am
Martin:
Great that you got that Rinaldi. See what the label reveals when you get it.

It is amazing how tangled the web of involvement is in these mandolin makers and how little information thereis available.

I see that this one is missing the bone bridge insert. Will you make that yourself or have a luthier deal with it? I have a few mandolins needing that piece and will attempt to create one myself. I bought a few bone guitar saddles.

Jim

Martin Jonas
Sep-08-2004, 7:14am
I see that this one is missing the bone bridge insert. Will you make that yourself or have a luthier deal with it? I have a few mandolins needing that piece and will attempt to create one myself. I bought a few bone guitar saddles.
Jim --

The E-bay page I've linked has a photo of the label, and it's very bland: "Carlo Rinaldi, Napoli". #Remarkably modern typesetting, though, for what surely is a 19th Century design. #That reminds me of the Ceccherini label (earlier in this thread), which is also very unfussy and elegant. #I found one other photo of a Rinaldi on the web here (http://www.insightsconsulting.biz/Instruments/musicoll.htm) (photo attached below from that site: the Rinaldi is No. 68 on the left). #Confusingly, this one looks more like a Ceccherini than a de Meglio: same style of fret markers and headstock shape as my Ceccherini. #I'm glad to say that the one I've bought looks in better shape than this one, which has a clumsy replacement bridge and is missing the string holding bar and tailpiece cover.

Regarding the bridge insert: I think it probably had a brass/bronze insert, like the Ceccherini, not a bone one. #I agree with you that it looks to be missing, but there is a chance that it's just tarnished and doesn't show up in the photo (the colour of mine is virtually like the ebony of the bridge). #If it's missing, replacement should be easy and I'll make it myself. #These inserts are just lengths of round rod, filed flat on one side. #I made some replacement saddles for the Ceccherini, as a means of lowering the action. #In the end, I stuck to the original saddle and just lowered the wood underneath. #However, I still have several brass rods of the right diameter (cost around two dollars from a shop in Liverpool selling model-building supplies) and know how to work them to flatten one side. #I'm pretty sanguine about that.

Martin

Jim Garber
Sep-08-2004, 7:31am
Regarding the bridge insert: I think it probably had a brass/bronze insert, like the Ceccherini, not a bone one.
Martin:
You are probably right about that metal rod. It looked like the std Vega/Martin style 2-piece bridge/saddle that i have to deal with on the American instruments.

Jim

Martin Jonas
Sep-14-2004, 6:26am
The Rinaldi has just arrived. #First impressions:

- The brass saddle is indeed there, just tarnished (or anodised) to match the colour of the wood.

- The mandolin is in amazingly good condition, despite clearly not having been played for decades. #Perfectly straight neck, perfect action (exactly 2mm at 12th fret), virtually no fretwear (but they may have been recrowned at some stage; they are very very low even for an old Neapolitan bowlback), no warping at all in the top, just some scuffing around one of the "vents" on the side of the bowl. #Indeed, it's in better condition than my Ceccherini was when I got it, and that one was easy enough to get to playable condition.

- Having said that, a close look shows the Rinaldi to be somewhat more crudely made that the Ceccherini. #I've never seen a de Meglio, so I can't say how it would compare with their craftsmanship. #This is all relative, of course -- the Ceccherini is incredibly well-made and the comparison may be unfair. #The mere fact that the detailing, decoration and construction is so similar between the two means that comparisions, odious though they may be, are hard to avoid. So:

- The entire mandolin feels more robust and less delicate: the neck is chunkier and a deeper U-verging-on-V shape compared with the Ceccherini's shallow U. #The top is about 50% thicker and the entire mandolin a good deal heavier.

- The fretboard is rosewood (stained black), not ebony, and it's almost twice as thick as the wafer-thin Ceccherini fretboard (still thin in absolute terms, of course). #That's probably because a rosewood fretboard would be too fragile if made that thin.

- The nut is a similar construction as the Ceccherini, i.e. a metal nut/zero fret combination. #However, where Ceccherini made a miraculously detailed and ingeneous single-piece nut, on the Rinaldi that's approximated by two pieces of metal: a nut directly abutting a bar fret in a single slot. #Having said this, the action at the nut is perfectly set, if anything better than on the Ceccherini where it's a bit high.

- Nut, bar frets and saddle are all yellow brass. #On the Ceccherini it's bronze for the nut and saddle and some nickel alloy for the frets.

- The bridge is shaped like on the Ceccherini, but somewhat more crudely carved when examined closely. #It currently sits about two millimetres further back than its original position (visible from the footprint). #Where it currently sits, it's not a perfect fit for the curvature of the top. #I don't know yet whether it was necessary to shift the bridge for intonation purposes or whether it can just be moved back into position. #In view of the fact that the top shows no warping at all, I'm hopeful that
I can just move it back.

- Like the Ceccherini, it has a very dark top, the same colour as the binding and bowl. #However, where this seems to have been due to natural ageing on the Ceccherini, there's clearly some sort of stain on the Rinaldi.

- Where the Ceccherini has a real tortoiseshell pickguard, this one looks imitation, as does the tailpiece cover. #However, a clean up might show otherwise (the entire mandolin a a bit grubby and smells of attic).

- There's a patent brand between bridge and tailpiece. #I can't read what it says (maybe after the clean-up), but it doesn't appear to be "Carlo Rinaldi". #Maybe the brand will resolve the question of the actual builder. #Having said said, on close inspection I'm not sure whether my suspicion that this may really be a de Meglio is correct. #We may be talking about a de Meglio imitation instead. #However, I've never seen a de Meglio up close, so I don't know whether the above details are consistent with them.

- I have been wondering about the age of the instrument. #The decoration, and the construction, are all so close to the de Meglios and Ceccherinis of the 1880s and 1890s that I have assumed that the Rinaldi is the same age. #However, the typography of the label looks more 1920s to me, which also would sit easier with the artificial tortoiseshell and the bakelite (I think) tuner buttons, not to mention the overall condition of the piece. #I also suspect that the bowl might be Indian, not Brazilian, rosewood -- its figure is quite different from the Ceccherini. #No date anywhere, so it's difficult to be certain. #Maybe the Rinaldi workshop was a successor of the de Meglio workshop, and was building new instruments to old moulds and specifications.

More importantly than all of the above, just plucking the decades-old strings that are currently on the instrument gives a nice, resonant tone with decent sustain. #So, I'm fairly confident that it'll be a good, playable mandolin for my mother with new Lenzners.

Martin

Martin Jonas
Sep-14-2004, 8:08am
- I have been wondering about the age of the instrument. #The decoration, and the construction, are all so close to the de Meglios and Ceccherinis of the 1880s and 1890s that I have assumed that the Rinaldi is the same age. #However, the typography of the label looks more 1920s to me, which also would sit easier with the artificial tortoiseshell and the bakelite (I think) tuner buttons, not to mention the overall condition of the piece.
On closer look, another explanation at least for the tuner buttons suggests itself: I think the headstock probably came from a completely different mandolin. #Its shape is different, and clumsier, compared to what I would have expected (I commented on that before I ever got the instrument), it's stained black, unlike the wood of the neck, and it has a cheap-looking stamped metal decoration (visible on the photo earlier in this thread) which is completely out of keeping with the overall style of decoration. #The join between headstock and neck is clearly visible. #It can be seen on the Ceccherini as well, but on the Rinaldi there is a transition there between the brown wood of the neck and the black stain of the headstock. #There are even traces of glue around the join. #Still, it may not look authentic, but the tuners in the new headstock seem to work just fine. #I suspect that the stain on the soundboard may date from the same restoration. A thought: maybe Rinaldi were a repair shop rather than an instrument maker?

Martin

Bob A
Sep-14-2004, 7:07pm
Once upon a time I won an ebay auction for a Cristofaro mandolin, but sent it back to France at great expense because I thought the peghead had been grafted to the neck. After a while I came to think that it was original, and that I'd been a fool to have rejected it. After another while I decided I didn't care. Still, the proof is in the playing, always.

Turns out I'm still a fool, but now I have lots of mandolins with which to console myself.

Be aware that many mandolins of this type have a veneer sheet of rosewood (or something) glued over the back of the neck. This can make it appear that there is a disconnect between the neck and the peghead. Some instruments, indeed, have a peghead grafted onto the neck. This is not necessarily a bad thing, if done well.

When I got my Pecoraro, I was under the impression that the bridge was way too high for the instrument. After stringing it up and tensioning the strings, everything lined up well.

Perhaps, too, Rinaldi was a re-seller. Another thread tells the tale of an Argentine mandolin that was made by Vinaccia, with a new label added. These instruments are deep wells of mystery. Only by playing them can they be understood.

Martin Jonas
Sep-15-2004, 3:18am
Be aware that many mandolins of this type have a veneer sheet of rosewood (or something) glued over the back of the neck. This can make it appear that there is a disconnect between the neck and the peghead. Some instruments, indeed, have a peghead grafted onto the neck. This is not necessarily a bad thing, if done well.

Perhaps, too, Rinaldi was a re-seller. Another thread tells the tale of an Argentine mandolin that was made by Vinaccia, with a new label added. These instruments are deep wells of mystery. Only by playing them can they be understood.
Thanks, Bob. #I don't think it's just a matter of veneer, but I'm not too bothered as long as the peghead is functional. #The graft (if that what it is is) is fine and professional, the tuners are turning easily and reasonably evenly and the angles seem to be right, so I don't think it's a problem.

Rinaldi may well have been a re-seller, especially in view of the illegible (but non-Rinaldi) patent stamp. #It's very teasing: individual letters and word shapes can be made out, but it doesn't quite gel into anything legible. #I saw Ian's tale on the Argentinian Vinaccia: maybe if I peel back the Rinaldi label, it'll say "de Meglio" underneath. #It's pretty firmly stuck on, though.

I've now strung it up with Lenzners and my first impression is that this is a loud mandolin. #A bit harsh right now, but so was the Ceccherini when first strung up with Lenzners and I expect it to mellow over the next few days. #Too early to say anything about the tone quality otherwise, except that it is certainly not thin. #I'm a bit worried about intonation: when I got it, the bridge was sitting just before the cant, about three millimetres back from its original position (as per footprint on the top). #Put back to its original position, it was fretting sharp. #However, even pushed to where it was when I got it, it's still fretting a bit sharp and it won't go much further back because of the cant. #Not too dramatic, but not quite right. #I'll let the strings settle in and then try again for the right position.

I've changed my mind on the tortoiseshell scratchplate: after a clean-up it now looks to be real, not imitation. Anybody know any tell-tale signs to make sure?

Martin

Bob A
Sep-15-2004, 12:16pm
Only methods I know of for TS determination involve looking thru it at a light source at about 10x magnification, to see if the dark matter is made up of tiny bits of stuff, or the heat test, which is destructive. (Poke it with a heated pin; if it stinks like burning hair, it's TS, if it flashes into ashes it's not). I don't think either would be suitable for a pickguard.