Casual use of specific terms

[Jonathan Peck]

I get a little confused sometimes when people use terms to describe the condition of instruments. For instance 'mint' might mean one thing to a collector of coins, but it could only have an implied but not specific meaning to a collector of old tools. Thus, the confusion created when we use terms that are not further defined by a finite and specific list of conditions that must be met. I was wondering if such a list of terms existed for musical instruments. As an example, here's a defined list of terms by FTJ (Fine Tool Journal) called - The Standard Condition Classification System

Category - New
Wear-None, Finish-100%, Usable-Totally, Repairs-None,
Rust-None, Misc. +Orig. Pkg.

Category - Fine
Wear-Minimal, Finish-90%-100%, Usable-Totally,
Repairs-None, Rust- Trace,

Category-Good+
Wear-Normal, Finish-75%-90%, Usable-Yes, Repairs-None/Minor, Rust-Minor, Misc. Some dings and scratches

Category - Good
Wear-Normal, Finish 50%-75%, Usable - Yes, Repairs-Minor, Rust-Minor, Misc. Small chips

Category - Good - (minus)
Wear - Normal, Finish - 30%-50%, Usable - Probably, Repairs - Minor, Rust - Minor to Moderate

Category - Fair
Wear - Heavy, Finish - 30%, Usable - No, Repairs - Moderate to Major, Rust - Moderate to Major.

Category - Poor
Wear - Heavy, Finish - N/A, Usable - No, Repairs - Major,
Rust - Major.

[David Newton]

The only terms I understand when buying are "let the buyer beware".

An instrument can be "new" and "well-played-in" at the shop it has been hanging at, as long as it is owned by the merchant.

"Excellent condition" is one you see a lot on instruments, but what that means can be all over the map. Depends on the person using the term: if it's a great dealer, you can count on EXC. to mean just that.

[allenhopkins]

Here are the categories John Bernunzio uses:

MINT - like new
EX - excellent, may have some dings or tiny cosmetic marks but very clean overall, no repairs unless noted
VG - very good, a solid instrument that may display minor wear or other minor cosmetic damages, may have repairs noted but should be very playable
GC - good condition, playable and solid, may be worn, cosmetically flawed or repaired
AS IS - not returnable, sold with repairs needed, priced accordingly

Janet Davis Music merely states:
All instruments are in very fine condition.

Intermountain Guitar & Banjo offers:

N. Mint = near mint condition
Exc = excellent condition
Ex-Fine = extremely fine condition
VG = very good condition
-- without further explanation

The other websites I visited -- George Gruhn, Lark Street Music, Mandolin Brothers, Elderly Instruments, Harry West, Music Emporium, Lowell Levinger, etc. -- don't explain what they mean when they assign a condition level to an instrument. #Their descriptions also vary in specificity; some will give the details as to wear, repairs etc., others will rely on the posted pictures.

Would be nice if there were a general consensus on what "mint," "excellent" etc. meant. #Doesn't seem to exist as of now. #So -- caveat emptor, or get a set of really detailed photos, or an approval period, or both, I guess...

[TeleMark]

I see on Elderly (unless I misunderstand the categorization) that instruments are "VG+ or Excellent but need the following repairs: refret, repair cracked top, refit neck..."

If an instrument is in need of significant repairs, how can it be in Very Good or Excellent condition?

[Carleton Page]

I see on Elderly (unless I misunderstand the categorization) that instruments are "VG+ or Excellent but need the following repairs: refret, repair cracked top, refit neck..."

If an instrument is in need of significant repairs, how can it be in Very Good or Excellent condition?
I totally agree about the excelent but needs a fairly major repair. #Is you is or is you aint? As Dr John would say. It seems that until it is fixed it should be downgraded.
While I am on it. Does it seem strange to anyone else for a major, famous dealer to sell instruments that need repair? #I understand that the repair cost would cut into their GM, but it just rubs me the wrong way.
#I agree that it can be fairly confusing what very good, excellent, near mint, very good+, very good-, all mean when it comes to actual condition. I am starting to think that an ad should just list all scratches/dings, any repairs,and show good pictures of all angles. Then just leave off the classification or at least difne clearly what this means. The last part apply more to dealers then private sellers I would think. I think it would be agood idea if their a clear standardized system Pictures of 4 or 5 examples of each grade. Excelent means this(insert standards here) and here is what it shold look like.(Show 4 or 5 pictures each of 5 difeerent instrunments that fit into that condition grade.)

[John Flynn]

Let's start our own "Truth in Advertising" rating system! Here are some possible ratings:

WH+ = Would make a great Wall Hanger

SBM = Set-up By Monkeys

POS = (self-explanatory)

Any others?

[BlueMountain]

The Bernunzio version is pretty good. I've also been surprised at Elderly to find instruments that need a lot of work listed as EXC. On the other hand, it beats the stores that list instruments as EXC but don't reveal that they need the same work as the instruments described that way at Elderly.

Maybe we also need categories for new instruments to indicate the various problems. For example:

NEW: Frets are sharp at ends and not level; action is unplayably high at nut; action is too low (or high) at bridge; minor finish irregularities; strings will make instrument sound terrible; bridge does not fit body.

Add more.

[JeffD]

SBM = Set-up By Monkeys
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[JeffD]

Let's start our own "Truth in Advertising" rating system! Here are some possible ratings:

WH+ = Would make a great Wall Hanger

SBM = Set-up By Monkeys

POS = (self-explanatory)

Any others?
I got a few:

SLS = sounds like ...

PLS = plays like ...

NFPT = not for prime time

BTTM = been through the mill

TLS = trout line sinker

P = planter

CB = canoe bailer

K - kindling

[Carleton Page]

SBM = Set-up By Monkeys
This rating just officialy entered my vocabulary! # #I agree that the Bernunzio system is pretty good. I also am glad that they(Elderly) at least #tell you about the needed repairs. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[MikeEdgerton]

The thought process here reminds me of some auction definitions I put on my me page (http://members.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewUserPage&userid=medgerto) on eBay years ago. They are towards the bottom of the page.

[JeffD]

The thought process here reminds me of some auction definitions I put on my me page (http://members.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewUserPage&userid=medgerto) on eBay years ago. They are towards the bottom of the page.
I love it. ""The neck has a little bow in it" means that you'll be able to use the guitars high E string to cut cheese."



http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif I owned that guitar.

[MikeEdgerton]

Me too http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Jonathan Peck]

My favorite ebay description is 'NICE'. It took my awhile to figure out what this means

NICE - I have no idea what I'm selling, but hopefully somebody will take it off my hands.

If a seller would like to add a little credibility to their ad then it's a 'VERY'.... as in,

VERY NICE - I have no idea what I'm selling, but I checked around the internet to find out and made an effort to give an accurate description.

Unfortunately it's all down hill from here. Sometimes a seller will add an exclamation point '!'. I've found that for each exclamation point added I need to downgrade the sellers credibility...

NICE!!! - I'm going to need to add some salesmanship to move this piece of junk, and I'm going to have to make sure that the pictures are dark and slightly out of focus.

Of course, there's this one...

NICE!!!NICE!!!NICE!!! - There's one born every minute http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[John Rosett]

Two years ago, I ordered an old Gibson mandolin from one of the retailers mentioned here. The description read "Professional sound and playability." When I recieved it, it had a bow in the neck-not really bad, but enough to make me send it back. I was a little upset that I had to pay postage both ways.
It was a great sounding mandolin, but two years later, it's still for sale.

[BlueMountain]

I read your Me page through and found it amusing, Mike. Thanks. My favorites from real ads are the people who warn us that an old mandolin is missing a string and that it will need to be replaced.

[Bob_Blackman]

Disclaimer: I work at Elderly (although not in sales and not with the used instruments). I'm posting this not out of self-interest, but because there was some question about why we would rate certain used instruments highly when they needed repairs.

Our website has this explanation (which I've edited slightly):

The condition ratings primarily represent the general cosmetic description of the instrument. Because these ratings are inexact, sometimes we will combine the ratings in an appropriate manner (such as E-MC or VG-EC).

We also often will give you the cosmetic rating and then qualify it by stating "except . . ." The exceptions may sound as if the rating should be in a lower category. Technically that may be correct, but we find that if, for example, we rate a beautifully clean guitar as "GC" because it has a 1" repaired side crack that is hard to see, it gives the incorrect impression of the guitar. So, we will probably rate it as "EC except small repaired crack in the side". What we are saying is that cosmetically this is a really nice guitar but we want you to know that it is not absolutely perfect. Occasionally we will put some information about some issues later in the description, so we urge you to read the entire description if you are interested in an instrument.

Note that, although we endeavor to mention any cosmetic or other flaws that we are aware of, it is not always possible to do so for every instrument. We think our ratings are fair, but if you are concerned about any specific issues then we urge you to call us toll free for a hands-on description.

[MikeEdgerton]

...My favorites from real ads are the people who warn us that an old mandolin is missing a string and that it will need to be replaced.
Actually those are good http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I still crack up when they say "Recently tuned."

[cooper4205]

Follow this link to the Vintage Dealer's Roundtable (http://www.mandozine.com/resources/VDRT/index.php) on Mandozine and scroll down to the second question. Stan Jay, Stan Werbin, Richard Johnston and George Gruhn weigh in on their grading scales.

[JeffD]

Disclaimer: I work at Elderly (although not in sales and not with the used instruments). #I'm posting this not out of self-interest, but because there was some question about why we would rate certain used instruments highly when they needed repairs.
Thank you for that. I know what you mean and it is somewhat of a dilema. "Amazing except for this or that" is really not the same as "Very good but not amazing", and it is difficult to really capture that in words.

I have dealt with Elderly for over 20 years and have never had a problem or felt anything was ever mis-represented. And when I have called about the condition of something the staff at Elderly has been really great. You guys have gone a long way to point out flaws and make sure I understood them when my own mandolin acquisition syndrome was trying to ignore them.

My favorite is when one of your staff will play the instrument in question for me over the phone. I love it.

Keep up the good work and thank you for being responsive to our concerns here at the cafe.

[Jonathan Peck]

Hey cooper4205,

Thanks for posting that link, that's exactly what I was hoping to find. It was interesting to see that the major retailers all employ a similar set of standards when evaluating the condition of instruments they are selling. I wasn't at all surprised that they couldn't agree on a standard that all would follow considering the dialog and explanations that each gave. The only thing that did surprise me is that all rely on the buyer being informed and knowing to ask the right questions.

The only thing I wish they'd change is to list these standards on their websites so that a buyer would know by which standard these instruments are being measured against.

[Jonathan Peck]

Question: EXF, EXC, EC, VG, minus, plus, double plus etc. etc. What is your method / jargon for rating the condition of instruments? Would you favor a standardized rating system for condition of instruments? Should originality be rated separately from condition? i.e. great restorations...

Answer from Stan Jay - Mandolin Brothers:
To the best of my knowledge George initiated using EXF for Extra or Extremely Fine. Until then the standard ratings were Mint, Exc, VG, Good, Fair, Poor, and when you added a "plus" it signified that the piece was at least mid-way to the next highest category, with the one exception that many dealers use NM for Near Mint instead of using Excellent Plus. We have, for the past umpteen years published our "Guide to Condition Ratings" on the back of every _Vintage News_ publication. They are:

MINT = perfect, almost literally never played, no sign of use or wear whatsoever. (We also made up the term "as new," to indicate a recently made instrument that was briefly owned but whose warranty was not registered with the manufacturer, in perfect new condition. In saying this we tell our customers that we do not recommend that they try to register the instrument as if it were new. This comes under the category of being a whole other subject which might be suitable for discussion at another time).

NEAR MINT = close to mint but may have one or two slight indications that it was, in fact, played.

EXCELLENT = showing the lightest normal cosmetic wear, may have some finish checking

VERY GOOD = showing light normal wear, possibly a professionally executed, nearly invisible repair, possibly a replaced or missing part or parts.

GOOD = having medium to heavy wear, perhaps a non-professional repair or a repair needed, or a significant modification, or a semi-professional refinish.

FAIR = greatly modified, or structurally damaged, or heavily worn, possibly with non-professional refinish, and/or requiring extensive restoration

POOR = not worth repairing

"PLUS" - any of these grades may have a "plus" (+) to signify that the piece is at least mid-way closer to the next highest category.

A standardized rating system would be a good thought but, as I said in our prior Q&A session, fretted instrument dealers are a most independent lot; we don't feel that cooperation among dealers (at any level) is possible. Long before one could try to standardize condition ratings one would first have to form an organization of dealers who had a shared desire to subscribe to such standards, or to agree to a discussion of standards, or even to form an organization. From personal experience (refer to the story of "AVID" - the ill-fated Association of Vintage Instrument Dealers - that George Gruhn, Jay Pilzer, Richard Brune' and I tried to form) I can tell you that such a thing will never happen in our lifetimes.

In the meantime, every buyer must rely on the condition ratings that his or her dealer chooses to use, yet every buyer has the responsibility of asking questions to try to pinpoint condition, originality and playability even more closely than the dealer initially provides. Lastly, originality is as much a part of a description of an instrument as is cosmetic condition and structural condition (to include repair history and repairs needed). The other two things that we generally include are playability and type of case. If, in a description, a dealer can cover all five factors of condition, the reader will be well informed.

Answer from Stan Werbin - Elderly Instruments:
A great question, and one which I have often thought would be great to discuss with this panel. First of all, here is our official stated descriptions of condition abbreviations:

MC Mint Condition - when we say mint, we mean mint. No wear, like new out of the box.

EC Excellent Condition - Very clean, might have some minor wear. but very close to new condition.

VGC Very Good Condition - Basically clean, might have some deeper scratches, pick wear or missing finish. Nothing real serious, no cracks, unless otherwise stated.

GC Good Condition - Solid playing condition, may have one or more repaired cracks or other cosmetic flaws.

FC Fair Condition and PC = Poor Condition - Indicate that the instrument may have some problems, usually described.

We also use plusses and minuses to differentiate between these rather broad categories.

That being said, we almost never say "MC", because the most discerning of customers will always find SOMETHING that takes it our of that category. We will say E-MC for what we think of as the best possible condition.

Also, we try to stay away from anything less than VGC, because it implies CRACKS, which can scare many people. Rather, we will use a higher category to indicate the general cosmetic condition, and then we will mention (in varying detail) the cracks or other nasty scars, if necessary. I just don't think you can put things in general categories (although we must) without qualifying it somehow. If we say GC but we actually have an E-MC instrument except for the fact that it has a 1/2" hairline (repaired) crack, does GC describe it correctly? So, we use a combination of shorthand descriptions for general appearance and more specific descriptions of anything that we perceive of as being an issue to convey any possible concerns. But, since we can't describe every blemish, we also think that it is best for the concerned customer to talk to us while we have the instrument in hand. Elderly Instruments has several people who do this all day long for people.

I think it would be great to have a standardized rating system, although I'm not sure that everyone would interpret it the same way, which leaves the customer in the same quandary that he or she is in now.

As far as I'm concerned, originality already is separate from condition. Condition is just that, and originality is a separate matter. We don't always mention everything, but we generally mention replacement parts, finish, etc. And, of course, sometimes we can't be sure, due to the high level of restoration work that is often done these days. And yes, if an instrument has non-original but correct period replacement parts then we will consider it original.

Answer from Richard Johnston - Gryphon Stringed Instruments:
In the days of expensive print ads, the abbreviations made sense, but we rarely use them today. With the necessity of web listings and photos, I much prefer to simply describe wear and damage and show lots of photographs of sufficient quality and detail that the customer knows what has happened to the instrument. And there's no agreement as to what those "initials of condition" mean, anyway, so the ratings are only a expression of the sellers opinion. One person's VG ++ is another person's EX COND., and so on.

My biggest gripe with our "industry," if we can call it that, is the focus on surface condition and originality while often ignoring playability and function. Some dealers go to great length describing scratches and cracks, or the lack thereof, but fail to mention that the frets are so worn the mandolin is unplayable. Refretting a used F-5, for instance, is very expensive. Oftentimes we see customers who have received an instrument in the mail, only to be faced with either paying for a fret job or paying a lot of shipping charges to get a refund.

Answer from George Gruhn - Gruhn Guitars:
I rate guitars on our inventory list in the following order: Mint, Near Mint, EXF, EXC, EC, VG+, VG, G. It is a rare event that we get a vintage instrument in mint condition since even one scratch would put it down to near mint. We typically do not take in instruments that cannot be described in at least G condition. While I think it would be wonderful if a truly uniform grading system could be established, the fact remains that different dealers use different standards. What some people call near mint is what I would call excellent. In order for there to be any uniform grading standard there would have to be some sort of organization to establish such standards and enforce them. There is no such entity nor do I anticipate that there will be one in the near future. In order for there to be a vintage instrument dealers association there first needs to be a group of vintage dealers who wish to associate with each other in a cooperative venture. The very few attempts in the past to set up any sort of vintage dealer association have never gotten off the ground. Vintage instrument dealers not only are highly competitive with each other, but they are a very diverse group ranging from well educated, highly sophisticated individuals to rough and tumble renegade wheeler dealers. While the concept of uniform grading standards may seem sensible, the specifics of establishing such standards and enforcing them on such a diverse group of dealers are virtually unworkable.

With respect to rating condition separately from originality and mentioning restoration work, I fully agree that cosmetic condition, structural condition, and originality are separate issues which need to be addressed when offering an instrument for sale. I have written extensively on this topic in my September newsletter which you can access by clicking on the Newsletter button on the home page of my website www.gruhn.com

[jim simpson]

I suspect that the "needs repaired" instruments that Elderly sells are probably trade-ins that they are just wanting to get there money back out of. It might be a gamble for them to put more effort and materials into the item - no guarantee that they would get a good return on their money.

Some of the ads sound similar to the following:

So how ya feeling? Well, my knees need replaced - arthritis in my hands prevents me from playing mandolin and my sight prevents me from working on my mandolin. Other than that, I'm in great shape!

[JeffD]

So how ya feeling? Well, my knees need replaced - arthritis in my hands prevents me from playing mandolin and my sight prevents me from working on my mandolin. Other than that, I'm in great shape!
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

But no its not like that. Its really more that something genuinely can be in "all but" shape. I can understand examples where the an amazing instrument's few flaws are minor, not going to get worse, don't affect playability or sound, fixable, and unobtrusive. Of course its not a flawless instrument, but it seems to me more accurate to give it the rating it would have without the flaws, and then add "except for", and list the problems, than to derate it and leave us wondering what else might be awry. I don' think it an inflation, it is in many cases more accurate.

But your example is hilarious.

I have the original hammer my great grandfather used to build this house. My grandfather replaced the handle, and my Dad replaced the head, but other than that it is the original hammer.

[markishandsome]

Does it seem strange to anyone else for a major, famous dealer to sell instruments that need repair? I understand that the repair cost would cut into their GM, but it just rubs me the wrong way.

All old instrument need repairs. Selling instruments in need of repair lets the buyer decide which repairs are important enough to have done and to choose who does the repairs.

[allenhopkins]

Elderly a while ago was selling a bunch of bowl-back mandolins "as is," stating that they needed repairs. #Prices were very low. #Probably, as stated above, it wasn't worth their while to put a lot of repair shop time into instruments that wouldn't bring premium prices in any case. #Elderly was totally up-front about the instruments' conditions.

Many dealers have a "flea market" or "bargain basement" category, in which they list instruments that need work which the dealer finds it uneconomical to perform. #I am still kicking myself for not buying a Waldo bowl-back mandocello from Elderly at a very reasonable price, because they listed it as needing the neck straightened (they recommended heat-pressing). #I haven't seen an affordable vintage bowl-back 'cello since.

You'll also see eBay instruments listed as "project," generally meaning "currently unplayable but possibly restorable." #I don't see anything wrong with this. #As long as the condition is accurately described, and the price doesn't get too high, why not? #My Howe-Orme mandolinetto was sold me (cheap) by someone who said it was a "wall hanger." #With a couple hundred dollars' worth of restoration, it plays fine.

Offering instruments needing repair for sale, gives the prospective purchaser more options. #Perhaps he/she can do some repairs, or is willing to purchase a restorable instrument at a low price and pay for its restoration.

How these instruments are described, of course, is another question. #"Excellent condition except for missing headstock" makes no sense. #"Very good condition except for stable, unrepaired crack in back" is closer to accurate (though how do you know the crack's "stable" if you haven't been watching it for a period of time?). #In the end, however, we're better off [1] examining the instrument in person or [2] getting very detailed pictures, plus insisting on a trial period. #And, most importantly, dealing with a seller we can trust, either from personal experience or from reputation and recommendation.

[Michael Gowell]

And I'd think that category provides projects and training materials for many beginning repairpersons, who could in turn make their money back and prove to be sources for solid [if cosmetically imperfect] recycled instruments.

[OregonMike]

SBM = Set-up By Monkeys
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
I did some in depth research and apparently monkeys strickly play bowl backs...

Monkeys with Mandolins (http://picasaweb.google.com/ajanus/MonkeyPaintings/photo#5154658097496117202)

Any one guess what tune he is playing?

[Ken Feil]

I always have my mandolins set up by monkeys. They work cheap (a couple of bananas):p

[Links]

They say if you put one thousand monkeys building mandolins for one thousand years, one will come up with a Loar - or something like that!

[Darryl Wolfe]

Someone may have touched on this (having not read every post) but there is and should be a sliding scale based on the age and fragility of the instrument.

I would expect an excellent minus/very fine 1934 Herringbone to be in much worse condition than an excellent minus/ very fine 2007 Km-1000 Kentucky mandolin

This in turn does not allow for an exact detailed description of an excellent minus condition

[allenhopkins]

Darryl ––

Which is the point, I guess, of much of this discussion: if sellers have trouble agreeing on what constitutes "excellent condition," then the buyer needs a lot more instrument-specific information. #Some sellers provide a lot more than others. #Elderly always posts an extensive series of enlargeable photos of vintage instruments. #Mandolin Bros. posts a single picture, as does Gruhn. #Bernunzio posts a series of pictures. #Others vary. #Most offer to provide additional pictures if you ask for them. #Some narratives detail what repairs have been performed, or what condition issues (unrepaired cracks, finish checking, fret wear, overspray etc.) exist. #Others are just a sentence -- "a fine hand-made instrument" is one of my favorites from George Gruhn's website.

I like Bernunzio's explicit description of what he means by "mint," "excellent," etc. #I have dealt with him fairly often, since he's here in Rochester NY, and he seems to adhere consistently to the categories he's defined. #But without being able to go into a store and actually inspect, play and discuss an instrument, and without a consensus on what the different condition labels mean, the buyer has to rely on whatever information the seller provides on an instrument-specific basis. #That's when the need for an approval period, and for first- or second-hand knowledge of the seller's record and reputation, become crucial in making a decision to buy a vintage instrument.

You're right: one would expect an "excellent/minus very fine 2007 Kentucky Km-1000" to be in almost "out of the box" condition, with maybe a pick scratch or two and the beginnings of fret wear. #The 1934 herringbone D-28 could have had a neck re-set, the bridge replaced, and new Grover Roto-Matics. #And yet they would warrant the same basic rating. #Does this mean that condition ratings are meaningless? #Don't know, but it surely means that the more instrument-specific information one can get, the more confident one can be in making a decision whether to buy or not.

[TomTyrrell]

Someone may have touched on this (having not read every post) but there is and should be a sliding scale based on the age and fragility of the instrument.

I would expect an excellent minus/very fine 1934 Herringbone to be in much worse condition than an excellent minus/ very fine 2007 Km-1000 Kentucky mandolin

This in turn does not allow for an exact detailed description of an excellent minus condition
There is nearly universal agreement in the areas of collecting that age is NOT to be considered as a factor in a condition evaluation. The reason is simple: a buyer wants to know the condition of the item he is considering based on objective standards, not subjective opinion.

Does "Excellent for its age" mean:
1. Very clean, might have some minor wear. but very close to new condition.
or
2. Basically clean, might have some deeper scratches, pick wear or missing finish. Nothing real serious, no cracks, unless otherwise stated.
or
3. Solid playing condition, may have one or more repaired cracks or other cosmetic flaws.
?

You just can't have that "for its age" allowance in the condition evaluation.

[Darryl Wolfe]

Great post Allen. #And Tom, I like yours but cannot fully agree. #I believe we are in general agreement on an very enjyable discussion here though. A person must know the details and the real condition regardless of the "condition tag" placed on it. Let me make this one example. #I like Allen and many others have followed the inventory at Gruhns Elderly and such for many years. #I can say that many years ago (1980's) Very Good or Very Good plus at Gruhns absolutely meant that there were problems with the instrument and there was an undesirable tag to it. #Any crack reduced the instrument into a VG category and there were also other issues. This flies in the face of my earlier post, but now it means some cracks but in pretty darn good condition that people are happy to accept. #So, acceptability has changed or the condition scale seems to have been altered over the years as these intruments get older. #The KM-1000 with numerous pick scratches, neck wear and fret wear would be far less than excellent even with no cracks in my book

[Darryl Wolfe]

post note. #The you can't have the "for it's age" thing. #Maybe that has merit, and fragility or instrument type comes into play. #An 85 year old Loar rarely ever has cracks, but a Martin guitar over 15 years old is highly likely to. #Most mandolins do not sport alot of face wear compared to any flat-top guitar. #Most every Strad has cracks, finish work, a new neck and has been mostly or fully disassembled in the past. #Hmmmmmmm

[TomTyrrell]

Age should not be taken into account in the condition evaluation. Very Good is Very Good no matter how old the instrument is. BUT, an 80 year old mandolin in Very Good condition could be acceptable where a one-year old mandolin in Very Good condition would not.

When desirability is factored in we get to the subjective matter of expectation. What condition would a prospective buyer expect the instrument to be in? That is where the "for its age" and other factors become important.

[f5loar]

If Strad conditions apply to Loars we are fine.
I think back on my first Loar that was just in VG condition. At the time to own a Loar in that condition was the thrill of a lifetime. When you look at prewar Herringbones like Dan Tanminskyi, Mark OConner, Tony Rice, etc. being tattered and worn does not effect the end result which is a great sounding guitar.

[BlueMountain]

Last week I bought on eBay a 20s Regal because it looked like the one Skip Gorman used on his CD "Mandolin in the Cowcamp." Paid more than I normally would, but the seller said it was completely restored by a noted Mississippi luthier and gave the name. It arrived a couple days ago. The neck was straight. That's important! But the tuners and tailpiece had been replaced, the frets are worn, the whole thing had been painted over in some sort of finish (not bad on the top, but too thick elsewhere). Worst of all, all six of the interior braces were loose! I tuned it up, then checked again, and it was a full half step flat, then another. Help! The top was concave. So I removed the strings at once. There were piles of hide glue around the the braces, but not much underneath them. No way to remove all that mess without removing the back, so I removed the back, cleaned up the glue, reglued everything, and now it's solid, rescued, has the right amount of slight arch on the top and back, and it may end up sounding very nice (the top has about the thickness of a potato chip). But I do wish that "fully restored" by a "noted builder" meant what I had expected.

[Links]

I've got to agree with Tom (Tyrrell) on this one. #Condition can't (or shouldn't) be subjective, although we all know that it is, and probably based more on Darryl's formula than Tom's and mine. #In my opinion, mint condition is mint condition regardless of the age. #Why should lower condition grades be any different.

I do like Allen's description of what might have been done to a '34 Bone that could be called "excellent" condition. #Maybe the term "excellent playing condition" with an overall "very good condition" would be more appropriate and descriptive. #As a collector of antiques, pocket knives, stringed instruments, early American Glass, Southern Pottery (from near you Darryl), accurate description of items are important. #I do not like the qualifier "for it's age", mainly because that means different things to different folks.

[Steve Ostrander]

Seems to me that the cosmetic appearnce and the playability and sound of an instrument should be rated separately. If I'm looking at a an 80 year-old A4, for example, it may look poor but play and sound excellent, and I may not care what it looks like.

[Jonathan Peck]

Seems to me that the cosmetic appearnce and the playability and sound of an instrument should be rated separately.
I've spoken to many shop owners about this, mainly because when I decide to buy an instrument I already know how much I will pay for it and it's usually the shop owner who will have to determine if they will lower their price to what I'm willing to pay. To that end pricing has to do with condition and not playability and sound. Some might be willing to pay a dealer's price if the instrument has the playability and sound that they desire, but the dealers price their instruments according to condition and rarity.

As far as 'mint' goes, I don't like this term. I much prefer 'new' and 'fine'. An instrument, regardless of it's age, if not able to meet the criteria as new, should certainly fit into the 'fine' category unless it has issues that would further downgrade it to good+ or good.