Mandolins from Iriland [Archive] - Mandolin Cafe Forum

whistler

Jun-26-2004, 8:36pm

Mandolins were being used occasionally in Ireland in the ceili bands of the 1930s, along with banjos, saxophones and other 'non-traditional' instruments. The type of mandolin being used was whatever was available at the time - the banjo mandolin was no doubt favoured for its volume, since electric amplification was more the exception than the rule in those days. The mandolin only really started to be taken seriously as a melody instrument in Irish Traditional Music in the late 1960s, partly due to the influence of bluegrass from America, partly riding on the back of the popularity of the Tenor Banjo (in no small part thanks to Barney McKenna of The Dubliners).

Consequently, being a relative newcomer to the tradition, there is no such thing as the 'correct' type of mandolin for Irish music. Three years ago, I went to watch the Senior All Ireland mandolin competition at the Fleadh in Listowel. As I remember it, the majority of the players were using F-style instruments - and one of them played a bowl-back. But, of mandolin players I have seen in sessions, most use, loosely speaking, A-style instruments (I am not a fan of that terminology), with a central soundhole. A good many players prefer flat-topped (i.e. not carved) instruments to the Gibson type true A-models.

Personally, I have never liked the tone of the Gibson F-models for Irish music, fine instruments though they may be. I have tried playing on bowl-backs also, and I find them somehow unresponsive to the fast melodic runs and strong rhythmic pulse of Irish music - and fiendishly difficult to keep hold of.

I would recommend a flat-topped, flat backed instrument, but that's just me. Shop around, find what you like and, whatever you do, don't listen to me.

Nick Triesch

Jun-27-2004, 10:12am

Thank you very much for your answer. #I am learning that there seems to be two main kinds of Irish music: #Traditional and pub folk fun music where there is much singing. It seems to me that the tradtional has many rules (play song only 3 times, do not improvise ect.) #while the folk type songs can be played anyway you like. # Much to learn! # Nick http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Unseen122

Jun-27-2004, 3:07pm

It all has to do with the tone of the instrument an A will give you a brighter sweeter tone that is why it is used in ITM (irish Traditional Music). The F style have too much chop and bark that is not really good for ITM. The Flat top is the most "accepted" for the style of music along with A style in general Oval hole Fs aren't too bad but As are better (this is for the style of course). Also Banolins are too loud and harsh along with Resomandos (I made that word up) are the same.

steve V. johnson

Jun-27-2004, 4:26pm

I'm really sorry to learn that you have sessions around with such stringent "rules". I think that that sucks, and Session Cops suck too.

Mostly (in my experience) Session Cops are very insecure about their own playing, and in general, their place on the planet, too. So I guess we just need to be kind and patient with them, and just focus on the joy and community in the music.

But, since that's what you have in your area, have fun and don't take the Paddy Ashcrofts too seriously!!

Nick Triesch

Jun-27-2004, 4:31pm

I hear what you are saying but I've played and owned some pretty nice sounding A types that rival the F type anytime. The 85 Givins I owned and the 23 Gibson A I now own have huge sound. Also you can hold back on the F type. I think what is really going on is that the A style just looks more the part. And if you are hooked up to a mic, it really does not matter anyway. A friend of mine in a bluegrass has a flatiron f type that sounds real week but he said it just does not matter because he is always on the mic. I think it is all about tradition and thats just fine. Nick

Nick Triesch

Jun-27-2004, 4:43pm

I like to have fun when I play and I want to learn but at the seision I went to no one played anything because only the hosts knew the songs note for note so we could not play anything. #One nice mady who is in our city mandolin orchestra sat down and set up a music stand and sheet music and the hosts told her right away that sheet music was not allowed . #She was shocked and left early. #One lady asked if she could bring her guitar and the host said no, #not allowed! #So all seven of us just sat there for two hours and watched the two hosts play. #They were very good and played their songs perfect note for note and played the songs no more than the required 3 times! # Nick:)

keithd

Jun-27-2004, 5:37pm

Nick,

I've been working on Irish mandolin for almost 2 years now, and I'm fairly new to session playing. I can imagine your frustration with a rigid, humorless, or less than welcoming session leader. The other side of the coin is a session leader who won't keep the music on topic; that is, Irish dance tunes, with breaks for Irish songs. That is, after all, what an Irish Pub Session is.

There are some slow sessions in the San Francisco Bay Area that are very welcoming and supportive of newcomers, allow sheet music, and provide pretty amazing web support, with sheet music and midi files for their core tunes list. This can be tedious sometimes too, but it serves a great purpose. I have found regular sessions here also welcoming but, alas, my playing is not that fast yet, and my list of tunes still a bit short.

One of the amazing things about a regular session is the sponteneity of tune choices and combinations from an ever growing group of thousands. I've been to sessions (as a lister mind you) that went on for 4-5 hours without ever repeating a tune. Hopefully you can find a more welcoming session in your area - keep looking!

Check out this link to a useful piece on session ettiquette: http://pweb.jps.net/~jgilder/seisiun.html

As for instruments, I've seen all kinds at sessions around here; I've never sensed any kind of prejudice in that regard. In my own playing I have gone from a Mid-Mo M-11 (all mahogany, round hole) flat-top, to a carved top Martin 2-15 (which has f-holes), to my current Gibson A-2 (carved, oval hole). It's true that I do like the styling of the Gibson, but it also has more the tone I'm after; it's dryer, louder, and punchier that the others.

Keith

Keith Miller

Jun-27-2004, 7:43pm

Nick,
there is only 1 way to deal with a session like that, get up and leave the 'hosts' will soon get fed up playing to themselves. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Nick Triesch

Jun-27-2004, 9:27pm

Thanks Keith. Nick

Unseen122

Jun-27-2004, 9:42pm

Anonther way is to walk outside and the rest of you play your session out there. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

Nick Triesch

Jun-27-2004, 9:42pm

Does anyone know what I'm talking about when I say there is two kinds of Irish pub music? I've been to fun bars where groups would sing and play all kinds of folk and fun music and everyone would have a blast. And drink beer! I also notice they use every kind of instrument from guitars to mandolins to the tin whistle. Thats the kind of music I would like to learn and get away from bluegrass for a while. Nick

Unseen122

Jun-27-2004, 9:48pm

To get technical that would classify as "folk" music not "tradidtional" the difference is they play more along the lines of "Molly Malone" and "Danny Boy" these being folk songs Traditional would be more like "The Kesh" and "St. Anne's Reel" (trad version not bluegrass) these being tunes the second is a session the first is well it doesn't have a name it is just a bunch o' drunks playin' instruments this just breaks out it is not planned and don't excpect to see that many. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Bren

Jun-28-2004, 3:47am

Irish music is great and pub sessions are great fun but don't fall into the trap of thinking that pub sessions are unique to Irish music or vice versa. Otherwise you might miss out on a whole world of Scottish, Shetland and other music. Shetland in particular has a great proportion of mandolin players.

Those who want to rigidly control the manner of playing and the type of music that is played are perhaps not so well suited to pub sessions. However if that is your only local session, you have my sympathy. Your options are either to attend regularly and hope that with like-minded players you can influence the session to develop in a less restrictive way, or start an alternative session, perhaps with other folk you meet at the first one.

As for types of mandos to use - when playing unamplified, volume is #1 consideration for a mandolin, so I would say a good resophonic mando is as good a choice as any in a session context.

Aidan Crossey

Jun-28-2004, 6:15am

Mandocat ...

I'm sorry if you found your first exposure to traditional Irish music to be a tad unfulfilling. I don't know how the session-hosts put themselves across. However it's not surprising that they run their session in the way that they do.

Many trad musicians find any form of backing instrument to be anathema and therefore quite a few sessions have a (sometimes unspoken) bar on guitars and the like.

Many sessions will also frown on sheet music, for any number of reasons. The first is that a proper session is not about learning, it's about playing. Sure, you might pick up the odd tune here and there. But learning's done someplace else (your bedroom, garden shed, a formal class).

Secondly, the essence of the session is a degree of spontaneity. Sure, most of us will play pretty much the same sets from week to week. But players with a large repertoire like to keep their options open, to vary their sets, to go with whatever choices spontaneously suggest themselves. Tunebooks aren't arranged like this! By the time the "reader" recognises the tune (or is told its name), locates the tune and then starts to play, the player who has introduced the tune is likely to be ready to move on to the next one.

Finally, reading music straight from the page and playing it is - in almost every case - not anywhere near as interesting as having personalised a tune. In a session I play with, one of our number is a fluent sight-reader. But when playing an unknown tune, his approach is purely mechanical; he plays all the right notes in the right order at the right speed, but there's no personalisation. With tunes that he knows, which don't require access to the dots, it's a different story; fluent, individualised, nicely-ornamented playing.

Some people may find sessions a bit rule-bound. I would argue that the only way to ensure reasonable quality when a large number of instruments are involved is to have rules that everyone buys into and then stick to them pretty rigidly. When you've internalised the rules, then you can, on ocasion and to very good effect, subvert them. But you need to know what you're doing, why you're doing it and be reasonably confident that you'll have the support of other players in doing it!

As for mandolins, much of what Whistler says is very apt. The mandolin is not considered a traditional instrument - this is a pretty limited club, comprising (if you're an absolute hardliner) the fiddle, pipes, whistle, harp and flute with the possible addition (if you're less hardline) of piano, bodhran and melodeons/concertinas. The reality is that the pool of "acceptable" instruments has increased over the years to take in guitars, mando-family instruments, piano accordions, you name it! However some sessionistas will, as I've pointed out above, baulk at the inclusion of certain instruments and if that's the way that they want their session to sound, then that is their choice. Such a choice has consequences, of course, but if they're prepared to live with those consequences, then the session will run as they see fit.

As for the "other" type of gathering that you talk about, this is what I would have called a "come-all-ye", a singsong or a hooley. A session - which is almost always tune-oriented - can sometimes degenerate into the other beast, particularly when the drink's been taken and the hour is late. However most trad musicians would rather pack up than get involved in the paddywhackery that comes in tow with such shenanigans! Personally I think there's a place for both and I've been as responsible as the next man for indulging in (nay, leading!) the odd drink-fuelled come-all-ye. However, given the choice, nine times out of ten I'd opt for a well-disciplined session over a come-all-ye!

steve V. johnson

Jun-28-2004, 6:31am

I like to have fun when I play and I want to learn but at the seision I went to no one played anything because only the hosts knew the songs note for note so we could not play anything. One nice mady who is in our city mandolin orchestra sat down and set up a music stand and sheet music and the hosts told her right away that sheet music was not allowed . She was shocked and left early. One lady asked if she could bring her guitar and the host said no, not allowed! So all seven of us just sat there for two hours and watched the two hosts play. They were very good and played their songs perfect note for note and played the songs no more than the required 3 times! Nick:)
[QUOTE]

The last time I was in a situation like this (not nearly as tight as this, tho), the folks who were left out got up at a break and organized another time and place to meet and play and help each other learn the tunes!

It's nice to be a guest at a great performance, but ...

<GG>

I'd take a slight exception to Aidan's assertion that 'sessions are for playing, not learning,' just because at the great majority of sessions I've attended, some part of the time someone was learning a line, an A-part, an ornament, the history of a tune, etc. These things are shared in the process.

It's true that "slow sessions" are specifically for learning and regular sessions are better if they don't have to stop for major teaching, but a lot of times some folks will step away to go over something and then come back to the circle.

Many session players have been VERY generous in teaching me stuff in sessions, especially in Ireland.

stv

Aidan Crossey

Jun-28-2004, 7:06am

You're right stv, of course, that *some* learning takes place in the session environment. What I was trying to point out is that a fluent session may not be able to accommodate "learners" or the "dot-dependent" easily. Many players will, as you've pointed out, take the time to share learning points with other players.

But if a session contains fairly seasoned players with large repertoires and the ability to play at a fair lick and a shared vision of the music, then those players may not be able to make space for the newcomer without radically altering the compexion of the session.

Therefore the golden rule is that any given session is as it is. The newcomer adapts to the session as he/she finds it, not the other way round.

POB

Jun-28-2004, 7:50am

Excellent posts from Aidan.

I guess the trick is to find a session where the general standard of playing isn't any more than a few notches above (or below) your own. I could be wrong, but I don't think a jazz jam or a bluegrass jam where the musicians were of a very high standard would necessarily be hugely enthusiastic if I sat in with the small handful of standards from those genres that I sort of know.

That said, anyone "hosting" a session should at least be polite and diplomatic to others.

Aidan Crossey

Jun-28-2004, 8:55am

Pádraig ...

"...That said, anyone "hosting" a session should at least be polite and diplomatic to others."

Indeed! #Although it can be difficult to articulate what the session is "about", e.g. what styles predominate, what "level" the players are at, whether the session favours accompaniment or not, etc., it is worth the effort.

I've been wrong-footed on many occasions, blithely joining a session and realising that I'm in the midst of players who are way more advanced than I am. #On other occasions I've sat in on what have been advertised as "sessions" that have turned out to be singarounds. #In such cases, I've felt uncomfortable and embarrassed and so I do sympathise with the frustrations of newcomers who find that a session which they have joined has appeared rule-bound or exclusive (whereas it may simply be being true unto itself and guarding its character jealously).

Often there are a lot of assumptions made in the session-world, a lot of talk behind backs and suppressed irritation ... #A bit more talking would sometimes help us through that!

POB

Jun-28-2004, 9:14am

... a lot of talk behind backs and suppressed irritation ... #A bit more talking would sometimes help us through that!
Very true. I think it's a lot better to politely explain the position to someone who's not lying in with the flow of the session, rather than let the annoyance fester and manifest itself an hour later in a frustrated outburst.

Doesn't always work though - I once had to (politely and diplomatically, of course!) explain to a guy who sat in with a pair of spoons that he wasn't keeping time with the music at all and it just wasn't working. Despite my best efforts at being friendly and polite, he threw down the spoons and stormed out roaring at me "What are you - a f***ing Orangeman?!!!" I hadn't realised that an aversion to bad spoon playing was a hallmark of the Ulster Scots tradition. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

potatoe

Jun-28-2004, 9:17am

whats worse, drunken a scot banging away on spoons, or a session nub banging away on bodhran?

POB

Jun-28-2004, 9:19am

Do I have to choose?

Unseen122

Jun-28-2004, 9:20am

whats worse, drunken a scot banging away on spoons, or a session nub banging away on bodhran?
Hmm tough decision but I have to say the Bodhran just because there is nothing dumber than a drummer. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

POB

Jun-28-2004, 9:26am

Aidan Crossey

Jun-28-2004, 10:07am

Ah ... the last refuge of the deflated ego ... accuse someone of being an Orangeman. How many times have we heard that one? (Well, not too many times actually, when all's said and done. But enough. It's usually trotted out when a (drunken, belligerent) punter requests a song/tune that's not in the sessioneers' repertoire!) People for whom such a remark comes easily to the lips are generally unaware that many people who play in Orange bands are fine musicians and that the fifing repertoire has a great many splendid tunes, which don't fall into the Pope-bashing category. For instance Gary Hastings, on his and Seamus Quinn's recent Slán le Loch Éirne album, plays a great set "The Bugle Hornpipe/Number 5". The latter tune in particular, a 2/4 march, has become a real favourite of mine and I like to play it with "Farewell To Whiskey"; the accent changes at the transition from polka to march, but I think the two rest very easily alongside each other. Because "Number 5" is not well-known I often get the odd question about the tune and its provenance and it gives me a real sense of impish pleasure to see the look on people's faces when I explain that it's from the County Antrim fifing tradition!

POB

Jun-28-2004, 10:20am

I've had the pleasure of backing the Belfast flute player, Harry Bradley on occasion. Once we were playing in a concert in Galway and he announced that the next set would be comprised of tunes from the fife and drum tradition. A pseudo-patriot in the audience made some ignorant, derisory comment. Harry very quickly and incisively pointed out in no uncertain terms that they guy's opinions were as ill-informed as they were unwelcome. He managed, in the space of a few sentences, to explain the origin and history of the music, and to shut the ignoramus in the audience up. I never enjoyed watching a heckler get his come-uppance as much.

Nick Triesch

Jun-28-2004, 6:25pm

Let's see, #No playing if you don't know the tune all the way. #know the tune note for note.
No learning at a session. #No sheet music. #No guitars. #Play the song only three times. #Do not impervise. #A type mandolins are prefered. #You should only play close to the bridge, #not near the fretboard. #Get a arm guard and a tone guard. #Many of you folks said some nice things but I'm sorry, #I think I'll just stick with bluegrass and some pop music. #The folks are nice, #not snotty. #You can jump in anytime you want. #There can be 10 guitars! #And there are no rules. #I for one really like the sound of a Martin D28 playing behind a Weber mandolin. # #I'm not upset, #just glad I came to this message board for a visit. #Thanks, #Nick Triesch:)

steve V. johnson

Jun-28-2004, 11:18pm

Aidan Crossey

Jun-29-2004, 2:00am

Nick ...

Glad that you're not peeved. The fact is that Irish traditional music - and Scottish, Cape Breton, etc. - is a very disciplined medium. The fact that the music relies on - sometimes large - numbers of players playing in unsion means that it's incredibly disciplined. It relies on people knowing the tunes and, yes, one of the primary rules - which is not designed to exclude the newcomer, it's just fact - is that if you don't know the tune, don't join in.

Bluegrass music is, as far as I know - and I know very little about it! - much more flexible, allowing a greater degree of riffing and improvisation, so that if the newcomer doesn't quite know the tune but has a pretty sound bluegrass vocabulary then he/she can make an excellent contribution nevertheless.

Whatever you do, enjoy it!

Martin Jonas

Jun-29-2004, 2:59am

The latter tune in particular, a 2/4 march, has become a real favourite of mine and I like to play it with "Farewell To Whiskey"; the accent changes at the transition from polka to march, but I think the two rest very easily alongside each other.
Going off on a tangent completely, do I understand you right that you play Farewell To Whiskey as a polka? Interesting. I play it as a lament and can't quite visualize (or audiolize as it were) how you would shift the beat to play it as a polka.

Martin
(Who has been known to dabble with "The Sash My Father Wore" on the mandolin, but only in private. It's a nice enough tune, but the connotations are a bit overpowering for the music to stand on its own.)

Aidan Crossey

Jun-29-2004, 4:33am

"Farewell To Whiskey" is often played as a polka in the Sliabh Luachra style. Personally, when I play it, I tend to play not quite so fast as I would other polkas that I occasionally wheel out. And I really like slow versions of it ... I may not bring it down to lament speed; slowest I would probably get is a slow march tempo. (Whatever that means ... these terms aren't all that precise!)

I have a few Scottish tunes such as "FTW" which I like to mix in with Irish tunes at sessions (The Barren Rocks Of Aden; Hector The Hero spring instantly to mind) and they're always very well received.

SiFi

Jun-29-2004, 5:43am

G'day Nick,

Not sure what the folk festivals are like where you live, but here at the National Folk Festival in Australia one of the great attractions is the Session Bar. While there's only one bar, there is heaps of room and it's not unheard of for a dozen (or more!) different sessions to be running at any one time, of all levels.

Last festival, myself and a friend who are newbies to the whole session thing (and another friend who isn't) just drifted around until we found a session that was about our level, and just sat on the edge and played along if we knew the tune; sat out if we didn't. One night we couldn't find a session at our level, so we started our own and a couple of other newbies joined in. We might have been playing the most obvious session tunes, but we didn't care :-)

The festival also runs "The Session Experience" where newbies can go along and learn some of the standard tunes at a nice slow pace (music provided). Then in the evening many of the participants go along to the session bar and start a nice, easy paced session.

Maybe if there's something similar near you you could give it a shot?

Aidan, good point about bluegrass. From what I've seen, so long as you know what key the song is in, you can take a solo; you don't necessarily need to know the whole tune (and there's nothing wrong with that!!). One of our bluegrass colleagues might be able to give a more informed view however :-)

Cheers,

Simon

Bren

Jun-29-2004, 7:50am

Aidan, on the obverse of the coin, my Carrickfergus colleague happened to play some fiddle music within earshot of his sash-wearing father, who promptly dismissed it all as "Catholic music". I sometimes slip "The Sash" into the middle of "Fields of Athenry" particularly if we've been badgered to play FOA by a belligerent Glaswegian, as often seems the case. On each occasion so far everyone has noticed except the requester but I'll admit we're skating on thin ice.

mandocat Nick seems to have had a bad experience - it does seem sometimes that the further you get from the source, be it bluegrass, Scottish, Old Timey or Irish, the more "purist" and dicatatorial the sessioneers would be. I suppose you've no need to be like that when there's an implied shared culture in the region, but it seems a shame that people wanting to play music should be made to feel unwelcome.

Martin Jonas

Jun-29-2004, 9:45am

"And I really like slow versions of it ... I may not bring it down to lament speed; slowest I would probably get is a slow march tempo. #(Whatever that means ... these terms aren't all that precise!)

I have a few Scottish tunes such as "FTW" which I like to mix in with Irish tunes at sessions (The Barren Rocks Of Aden; Hector The Hero spring instantly to mind) and they're always very well received.
Lovely tunes, both of them -- a lot of the Scottish 2/4 pipe marches translate well to the mandolin.

Incidently, there's been an mp3 of my slow (and somewhat rough -- I'm still working on it) solo version of Farewell to Whisky here (http://mandolinproject.150m.com/misc.html) for the past couple of months as part of my "Three Laments" medley. #Files are normally deleted from that site after a month or so, so it might not stay there much longer, but it's still up now.

Martin

Unseen122

Jun-29-2004, 1:07pm

...there is nothing dumber than a drummer...
Ah come on - that's unfair! I know some excellent musicians who happen to be percussionists. Of course there are also those who would more accurately be described as persecutionists...
Fine, banjo players are dumber http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif I said a drummer not a percussionist they are not as dumb http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif this is all one big joke to me...

POB

Jun-30-2004, 7:45am

Nick,

Hope you haven't given up on us! This thread kind of wandered away from your original question. I'm at least partly resonsible for that - sorry.

I think part of the problem you experienced was down to confusion over what kind of music you were looking to get into. As other posters here have mentioned, there's the come-all-ye/ballad/folk song thing, and there's the mainly instrumental "traditional" stuff, originally dance music. If I read your posts correctly, you're probably more interested in the first kind, where the session you were at was probably geared towards the second.

Regardless, the "hosts" of that session sound to me to have been pretty uptight. There's no need for that, and I'm sorry that your introductory experiences of Irish music (in any of its forms) have been negative. You say you're not upset. Fair play to you for that - plenty of other people would be. Please believe me that the vast majority of Irish musicians, from either kind of scene, are anything but "snotty", in my experience.

I'd hate to think that you'll end up missing out on some great music because you think it's all about rules. I'm no expert on the ballad scene, but if you want to get into it you could do a lot worse than check out recordings by the Clancy Brothers and Tommy Makem, and the Dubliners, for starters. These guys made great music and there are loads of guitars (and also mandolins, banjoes, tin whistles, fiddles, harmonicas and so on)!

By the way, you mentioned that you like listening to a D28. Well, I play mostly the "other kind" of Irish music - probably the kind that your session "hosts" were playing - and I often play it on my HD28. Some sessions don't want the guitar and that's okay - there are plenty that do.

Jeff_Stallard

Jun-30-2004, 8:27am

whats worse, drunken a scot banging away on spoons, or a session nub banging away on bodhran?
As a bodhran player myself, I'm curious what you mean. Are you saying "session nub" drummers are too overpowering, or they don't understand the tempo? ...or both?

potatoe

Jun-30-2004, 9:15am

both. i dont mean to say that the bodhran is an unacceptable instrument, i play one as well. its just that some wihtout any musical experience seem very often to decide that "oh its just a drum, how hard can it be?" and bang away on it with a vengenace and ruin a fine session. no offence meant to ya jeff.

Jeff_Stallard

Jun-30-2004, 12:10pm

No problem man; I didn't take any offense at that.

A lot of "trad" musicians seem to accept bodhran players with more than a little apprehension. Because of that, I usually try to tone the volume down a little and even sit out about half the songs just to give people a break. The last thing I want to do is piss off my fellow musicians. What I wasn't sure about was the reason for the apprehension. That's why I asked you what you meant.

Unseen122

Jun-30-2004, 1:53pm

I have also been know to groove on a bodhran sometimes haven't unleashed it a a sesh yet. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Bluegrasstjej

Jul-02-2004, 7:39am

I got got stuck on something I read earlier on this thread, about Irish music being very disciplined.
How is it possible to play the exact notes when there are several musicians playing and there are different versions of a certain tune? The basic theme of the tune is always the same but each version has its variations. It's not possible to know what exact version the musicians at a session will play.
How does this really work? Is it possible for me to join a session in Ireland without knowing the musicians? How do they really welcome newcomers?

POB

Jul-02-2004, 8:04am

I suppose it's a question of playing close to what the others are playing, rather than getting it note-for-note identical, down to every grace note and triplet. That would be pretty much impossible in an open, unrehearsed session (and boring too).

For me, one of the main differences between Irish music and, say, Bluegrass, is that BG tunes are often based on very definite I-IV-V chord structures whereas Irish tunes are much less so. This means that Irish tunes are often melodically less predictable. (Bluegrass experts, please feel free to correct me on this if you feel I've misrepresented the music!) As such, it means that Irish tunes don't lend themselves to such overt improvisations as you can do in BG breaks. The BG chords give a tune a more definite framework, so the improvs can wander further from the basic melody and find their way home again. In general, Irish tunes haven't the same guiding chordal structure, so improvisations and variations are closer to the melody. (I'm reluctant to use the phrase "more subtle" as that would imply a sort of superiority, which isn't true.)

For this reason, it's more difficult to dive in and play along with a tune whose melody you don't know, or which is being played in a version that's very different to the one you know.

Anyway, all this blather aside, you will find that sessions here are, by and large, very welcoming of anyone who is into the music and shows a reasonable amount of respect to the musicians around her/him. You don't have to know the musicians in advance - if that was the case we'd never meet new friends!

Bob DeVellis

Jul-02-2004, 8:06am

Bluegrasstjej - I think the idea is to listen to how the core players are playing a tune and then to put the melody notes in all the right places. Ornaments will vary, but on most instruments they'll go largely unheard in a large session. Unison playing, I believe, was intended partly as a way of producing sufficient volume to fill a large room as Irish music moved from one or a few musicians in a kitchen to officially sanctioned dance halls. The ceili tradition really precedes the pub tradition. Without unison, the sound would get muddy really quickly and dancers wouldn't be able to follow the beat. This can also happen at a session.It can really be a din if people aren't playing the same notes. Of course, the tradition of the music is that it's melodic rather than harmonic, so I suspect it was played in unison even when two or three people in a kitchen were involved.

It's not unheard of for a tune to start with everyone in unison and, switching to the B part, discover that half expected one version and half another. 'Over the Ocean' is a tune this happens on a lot. But the newcomers should defer and get in line with the regulars as soon as possible. I like sessions that encourage the occasional solo where personal expression can really be shown. A piper who used to live in these parts (he's back in Ireland now) would play very soulful airs, not suited to accompaniment by a dozen other players, all by his lonesome. He flet free to vary the timing as it suited the tune and it sounded fantastic.

potatoe

Jul-02-2004, 9:51am

i think the lack of improv in celtic music makes it more difficult. i cant recall one where someone said "take a solo". they were just happy playing the melody, which means you HAVE to know the melody.

Bluegrasstjej

Jul-02-2004, 10:21am

Certainly, but if there are five different melodies?
Which means, the basics in it is the same, but with different ornamentations here and there.
Well, I think I have the answers of my question and I shouldn't stress about it. If it just sticks to the basic melody it's ok, right? I don't always do the triplets and rolls (can't do those on the mando, don't even understand how to do them on the fiddle).

I'm planning a trip to Ireland in November, to Ennis Trad Festival, so I sorta want to know how to behave at the pub sessions!!

mad dawg

Jul-02-2004, 11:07am

I am new to the session scene, and am lucky enough to have a slow session near me that regularly meets in a nearby pub, followed by a standard session (BASS / Bay Area Slow Session, at URL http://www.slowplayers.org). This looks to me like an ideal way to become accustomed to the tunes and rules of etiquette that may be common in my area's sessions; at the very least, I expect it will help me build up the#confidence to seek out and join more advanced sessions in the area as my session skills, experience, and repertiore grow.

Bluegrasstjej: here are some links to session etiquette that I found enlightening:
http://users.argonet.co.uk/users/gatherer/sess/ss4.html
http://www.oblique-design.demon.co.uk/musicbook/session.html

POB

Jul-02-2004, 3:50pm

Bluegrasstjej,
That festival in Ennis is always excellent! You should have a whale of a time.

Potatoe,
You're right, taking a solo in the middle of a set doesn't really happen in Irish music. The concept of an improvised "break" in the middle of a tune where the group is playing doesn't really exist - the tradition just hasn't evolved that way. On the other hand, the concept of the solo musician is pretty strongly enshrined in the tradition. By "solo" in this context, I mean that the musician plays the entire tune or set of tunes from start to finish entirely on their own. This gives them great scope for variations and personalised ornamentations and so on. It doesn't happen so much at sessions.

I'll probably be shot for saying it, but the solo "break" is one aspect of bluegrass that I'd be interested to see making its way into Irish music some day. I envisage it as a kind of a compromise between the fun and power of ensemble playing and the much-revered solo playing (with the improv being stylistically rooted in the Irish tradition rather than bluegrass or jazz or whatever).