Broad questions

[Brandon Flynn]

I know this type of question is probably asked frequently. I am very unhappy with my Michael Kelly F style at the moment. I just got it set up by a luthier, and he couldn't get the intonation quite right. The tone of the instrument is pretty good, but the intonation is a big problem. I'm not sure how it may affect intonation, but the F-holes on my mando are very crooked. The luthier got the E string to have perfect intonation to the 12th fret, but due to my crooked F-holes the bridge placement was crooked. I straightened it out and found that the other strings other than E were sharp on all frets. so I moved the bridge back towards the tailpiece. I can't get it right. I got far enough back that the E string is flat at times, while the D and G strings are close but a little sharp. The A string is still quite sharp.

If I can fix this, no problem. I don't want to buy a new mando until I make the money for a custom mando in the are of $6,000. I'm thinking that I can make a mando with the same quality of tone or better that my Michael Kelly has but with proper intonation. I am about to graduate high school in the beginning of June and have 2 1/2 months during the summer where I can put at least 2hrs of work on an instrument every day, and of course many days much more work.

For some of you who build, how long did your first mandolin take to build? What was the cost? I really need help determining if it will be cost efficient, I don't want to spend more than $700 making one. I need a mando that sounds good up the neck as I plan to major in music and need my instrument to sound good. Any books and resourses you can recommend would be great. Anything you have to say would be helpful. I need to determine if it can be done in that amount of time and with the qualification that I must match my current mando's quality on my first try.

[sunburst]

First things first. The intonation on your MK can be improved. Either the bridge saddle needs to be "tuned", or it needs to be replaced with one that can. The position of the bridge is important for intonation, but the position of the F-holes is not. If you must ignore the f-holes to get good intonation, fine. If the bridge doesn't sit neatly between the points of the F-holes, no problem.

If you want to build a mandolin that's great. It can be a fun and rewarding project. If you want a better mandolin than the MK, your time is better spent earning the money to buy an intermediate quality mando than building your own, then start building one.
Of coarse, you're free to ignore the economics of the situation and start to build, but you'll need access to tools and the knowledge of how to use them. If you already have tools, that's good, if you have a friend with a shop and tools that you can use, that's good too. If you need to buy the tools you need to build a mando, well, now it's starting to get expensive.

In short, if you want a project, build a mandolin and have fun. If you want a mandolin, buy one, then if you want a project, build one.

[Brandon Flynn]

Thanks for the response. I just got a new bridge which the luthier slotted and fitted to the top of my mandolin. What is the "saddle"? What does tuning it involve? I guess I'll have to keep playing with the bridge placement, and somehow stay satisfied with my mandolin's intonation until I can build up the cash for a better one. My mandolin sounds good enough, it's just the intonation that I have an issue with.

[sunburst]

The top part of an adjustable bridge, the part that the strings rest upon, is often called the saddle.
A luthier, or anyone who knows how and has the equipment, can cut the front edge of that part of the bridge to adjust the intonation of each string.

[markishandsome]

internationalviolin.com sells several partially finished mandolin kits for around $100. Search "IV kit" on this forum to find a few dozen threads about them. They require very few tools.

[Michael Lewis]

There are two other possible reasons for intonation problems here. Check out the nut very carefully to make sure it is not chipped where it supports the strings next to the end of the fingerboard. Also check the positions of the frets, as it is remotely possible the frets are not spaced properly. There are on line fret spacing calculators to help you figure out if yours are good or not.

[Fretbear]

Short of your MK having bad frets (which is possible but unlikely as they are not hand cut) your mandolin can be tweaked into proper intonation. I hope that whatever bridge your luthier supplied was a good one, as they are not all created equal. The bridges that Steve Smith of cumberlandacoustic.com sells are amongst the best made and when properly installed will make any mandolin sound (and play in tune) about as good as it is capable of. As John said, the position of the F-holes is not relevant to the intonation.

[Brandon Flynn]

I have a cumberland acoustics radiused bridge I believe. It's probably the fret spacing. The luthier carved a new nut and slotted the bridge himself, and I know his work is pretty good because I played another mando he set up. I hope it's not the frets, I don't know how you fix them but I bet it's not as easy as altering the nut or bridge a little.

[markishandsome]

It's probably the fret spacing. The luthier carved a new nut and slotted the bridge himself, and I know his work is pretty good because I played another mando he set up.

I'd be shocked if it were the frets. While Steve's bridges are certainly top of the line, the compensation of the saddle needs to be adjusted for your particular instrument, string gauge and setup. Wood needs to be removed, it's not just a matter of positioning. If your luthier couldn't intonate your mando and couldn't tell you what was wrong with it, you might want to find a second opinion. It's not rocket science.

[rockies]

While reading on this intonation problem, I repair a lot of guitars and some mandolins for several music stores. When I have an instrument come in (inexpensive types) with intonation problems like described, I really take a close look at the nut slots. A lot of times the rushed slotting at factories has the nut slot ramped improperly and the strings are not making contact at the front edge of the nut. Even a slight contact back into the nut causes major intonation problems down the neck.
rockies

[swampy]

To speak to the other question regarding making your own mandolin:
I upgraded from a Michael Kelly to a Stewart McDonald A-style kit.
The stew mac was a bit of work, The precut dovetail needed a lot of help,
The frets still need some work, The neck angle is still ridiculously steep
and the finish is horrible.

Having said all that, I spent a lot of time graduating the top and back and making sure I put the neck on as straight as I could.

The result, an unintentionally-distressed-looking, obviously homemade mandolin that sounds WAY better than my MK. I need to re-fret it because of the horrible job I did, but minus one or two dead spots way up the neck on the g string, it sounds terrific. Hopefully others will chime in, but i think the most important parts of the puzzle are careful alignment and graduation of the top and back. that seems to have made the real difference in mine.

It took about 8 weeks working a couple of hours a night or so, and it was a blast to do. I'm looking to build another in a few months. The way I see it, I'l spend $6000 on wood, tools, and instructional material over the next few years, and by the time its all said and done, I'll have an arsenal of handmade instruments. Hopefully one out of the bunch will be a hoss.

[Brandon Flynn]

Well, thanks for the help everyone. I will have to try a fret calculator to see. I will be a little ticked if the new nut that he slotted isn't done properly. Like many people in the music business, the luthier is a nice guy and I'm sure he would be glad to look at it again and see if he can make it better. The only problem is that he lives 2 1/2 to 3 hrs away. Or, as someone said, a second opinion. It's hard to find people in Florida that can get the job done. I'm going to Chattanooga, TN in August to start college, so I may just wait till then if I can't get it right myself.

[Brandon Flynn]

I just played around with the bridge a lot. I thought that since my f-holes are so crooked, he might have originally placed the bridge crooked and tweaked the intonation based off of that position. By placing the bridge quite crooked with the end housing the G string closer to the tailpiece, I got the E and G string pretty much perfect, and the other two are both sharp, but improve down the neck a little. Oh well, it sounds good enough now, I'll just attempt to make it better every now and then.

[mandolinplucker]

You may have the bridge backward. If you do, the only way to get the intonation right is to set the bridge at a slight angle and then it still won't be exactly right. Do a search. there are pics of the right way.