Here's the new gibson victorian f-style mandolin

[gatorgabe]

In case you haven’t seen the new Gibson Victorian F-Style mandolin yet, here’s the link to their website with information on it. I saw it for the first time this morning, and it is very, very sweet! I guess it combines the the qualities of the F4 and F5, but it looks great and I bet it sounds even better. What I can’t believe is that they’re only going to make 15 of them ... at least that’s what the article says. I’m going to try and get my hands on one ... I’ve been looking to upgrade my old A5 for quite some time and this may just be the one to do it with. Also, has anyone tried the Garrison mandolins? I heard the company was just purchased by Gibson ... let me know.
Here’s the link ... enjoy!
By the way, you guys run a great site!!

http://www.gibson.com/en%2Dus....ureinst (http://www.gibson.com/en%2Dus/Lifestyle/Features/gibsonoriginalsfeatureinst/)

[MikeEdgerton]

...Also, has anyone tried the Garrison mandolins? I heard the company was just purchased by Gibson ... let me know...
Yes, they just purchased them back in July of 2007.

Garrison Thread (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=12;t=45158;hl=garrison)

[MikeEdgerton]

You know, I just don't get it. I keep reading that this is a mix between the F4 and the F5 but it looks like an F5 with the torch and wire inlay on the headstock and the pickguard clamp from an F4. I just don't see that as much of a mix. Maybe I'm way off base. Have you actually seen one of these yet? The pictures in the other thread running this morning looked a little rough. Not up to Gibson's usual high quality.

[Ken Sager]

Marketing.

Harkening back to a time before the advancements used on this mandolin (truss rod, F-holes, 15-fret neck, elevated fingerboard)?

It has three similarities to mandolins of the period: The Gibson name, the pickguard clamp, and color of the stain on the back.

Pure marketing.

[Caleb]

Beautiful.

[MikeEdgerton]

It has three similarities to mandolins of the period: The Gibson name, the pickguard clamp, and color of the stain on the back.
OK, then I'm not crazy.... well maybe I am anyway.

You'd think they would have stayed with the oval hole and actually produced something for the old time or classical market. I don't know where this thing is meant to be sold.

[wannabethile]

i saw one of these in person during SPGMA in nashville. david harvey was doing a workshop of sorts with tim may and he pulled this prototype out and played it and described it. darn it, it was sweet!! it sounded really great, looked really great, and is really great. its about time for something different from gibson, as far as im concerned. now gimme one!!

[Gutbucket]

I guess they figure the F-5 market is bigger. I played this new Gibson and loved it. The earlier picture didn't really do it justice. It isn't as rough as it looks. And it sounded like an old Gibson should. I'd love to get one, but can't swing it by a long shot.

[MikeEdgerton]

That's kind of my point. Everyone knows I'm a Gibson fan, but an F5 with a different headstock inlay and pickguard clamp just doesn't seem F4ish to me. Call it what it is, an F5.

This would have been killer with an oval hole.

[Mr. Loar]

That's kind of my point. Everyone knows I'm a Gibson fan, but an F5 with a different headstock inlay and pickguard clamp just doesn't seem F4ish to me. Call it what it is, an F5.

This would have been killer with an oval hole.
I so agree. Let's see an oval hole model for sale. How much for the one pictured?

[steve V. johnson]

One can do a lot with 'retro' designation and marketing if one only has to sell -15- of 'em, no matter how nice it is.

stv

[JEStanek]

First post in this thread (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=12;t=53322) states $15-16k.

Jamie

[John Hill]

Ahhh...the old P.T. Barnum signature model.

[F5GRun]

Very Nice...Im with mike tho. To my eye thats an F-5. I could see it being more of a "hybrid" if it did have an oval hole. Does anyone know the bracing used? Maybe X-type bracing would make it more of a "hybrid" or at least more of a departure from the "standard" tone bar braced F-5 style


As for Garrison...Well I have never played one of their mandolins, I have played a bunch of their guitars a local shop, and did not like a single one. They use that weird fiber-glass bracing unit which rubs me the wrong way. I wont get into it because im sure that could start a whole new thread. But I like the fact of a guitar or mandolin to be all wood. It will be interesting to see what gibson does with it if anything.

[MikeEdgerton]

Ahhh...the old P.T. Barnum signature model.
Ok, warn me before you do that next time. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Marc Berman]

That's kind of my point. Everyone knows I'm a Gibson fan, but an F5 with a different headstock inlay and pickguard clamp just doesn't seem F4ish to me. Call it what it is, an F5.

This would have been killer with an oval hole.
I was just on Gibson's web site and that's what they call it, F-5 Victorian. So what you are buying is a limited edition F-5 with some F4 aesthetics.

[John Hill]

Ahhh...the old P.T. Barnum signature model.
Ok, warn me before you do that next time. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
That's a big 10-4.

Actually the new mando doesn't look bad in the pics from the above link. But still...$15K? Nah.

[MikeEdgerton]

I was just on Gibson's web site and that's what they call it, F-5 Victorian. So what you are buying is a limited edition F-5 with some F4 aesthetics.
Let me quote the Gibson site:

"Today, Gibson Original is introducing one mandolin that takes advantage of the best attributes from both the F5 and the F4 mandolin—the new Limited Gibson Victorian F-style mandolin."

The only attributes here from the F4 are the headstock inlay (and that wasn't on all F4's), the color on the back, and the pickguard clamp. That's the best the F4 had to offer? What about Handel tuners? What about that tubby oval hole sound?

We have some cosmetics here. If we put the Rolls Royce hood ornament on a Yugo and say we are combining the best of both automobiles, are we really doing that? I think not.

I'm sure this is a fine F5, I wouldn't expect anything else of Gibson. I just think they've stretched it a bit.

[F5GRun]

Wow Handel Tuners would have been a nice touch..probably would be 17K tho.

[JHo]

I kind of like the look of it. However, if I were in a position to spend that kind of money ($15k+) on a single mandolin, and if I were looking for a Gibson, I think I'd sooner get myself a DMM.

[Elliot Luber]

I think it's great that Gibson's making small lots of specialty instruments. Developing other types of mandolins gives them more of an ability to innovate within the F5 concept, and the limited edition nature of a small-run is great for their reputation, etc. Its good luthery(sp?) and it's good business.

[Ken Olmstead]

I kind of like the look of it. #However, if I were in a position to spend that kind of money ($15k+) on a single mandolin, and if I were looking for a Gibson, I think I'd sooner get myself a DMM.
Amen brother!!

[JimRichter]

You know, I just don't get it. I keep reading that this is a mix between the F4 and the F5 but it looks like an F5 with the torch and wire inlay on the headstock and the pickguard clamp from an F4. I just don't see that as much of a mix. Maybe I'm way off base. Have you actually seen one of these yet? The pictures in the other thread running this morning looked a little rough. Not up to Gibson's usual high quality.
I'm with you, Mike. I scratch my head on this one too. Obviously just a marketing ploy without much "Victorian" substance.

And by the way, wasn't the Victorian period over by the 1913?

Jim

[JHo]

...And by the way, wasn't the Victorian period over by the 1913?
That's just a minor technicality. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Timbofood]

It's kind of pretty but, a run of 15? Seems a little "Greatest Show on Earth" to me too..
"Hurry, hurry, step right up"

[dhmando]

Actually, what I was going for when I designed the Victorian F-5, is a mandolin that Lloyd Loar may have come up with if he had joined the Gibson staff in, let's say 1913. I understand he was quite fond of F-4 appointments as I am. This mandolin features a double flowerpot that extends into the truss rod cover, {a first!} a red spruce top, with bound f holes, that give the mandolin a very unique sound. The mandolin also features a 1 3/16" nut width, victorian style 24 fret fingerboard extension, teens patent stamped pickguard with patent stamped side clamp {all cool period Gibson inovations}....top it off with the black top and subtle F-4 red highly figured maple neck, sides, AND a one piece back with aged varnish! Oh, and by the way, it plays and sounds GREAT and I'm not the only one saying so.

[Docmarc]

...very classic look - that I would love to have...any chance one of you will give me $15,000 for my '02 Bush?

[Chris Biorkman]

Cool, but the price is a little steep if you ask me.

[JHo]

Dave, would you put it on par in your mind with a DMM for being in that same general price range? For that matter, does this one go through the proprietary distressing process?

[Paul Hostetter]

One other aesthetic "F-4ish" detail is the end of the fingerboard. What's up with the f-holes? Are the edges painted? Bound?

http://www.gibson.com/Files/aaFeaturesImages/F5Mandolin1.jpg

This reminds me of their Blackjack banjo - same old with a bit of well-chosen smoke and mirrors to get a new look. I do welcome the look, though.

Do you think they're only making fifteen because that's all the old pickguard clamps they could find?

[MikeEdgerton]

The f holes are bound. You're right about the end of the fingerboard as well. One more F4ish item.

[MikeEdgerton]

I see gatorgabe has a new tagline.

[theBlood]

The only attributes here from the F4 are the headstock inlay (and that wasn't on all F4's), the color on the back, and the pickguard clamp. That's the best the F4 had to offer? What about Handel tuners? What about that tubby oval hole sound? ...quote




This product almost suggests that there is something undesirable about F-4's. I mean, why doesn't Gibson make something like that now, anyway? I've acquired 2 old Gibson oval holes this year (A-1 & F-4) and am amazed at the sound quality. Why wouldn't Gibson want to honor that era and the design that sold over 50 thousand instruments?

[woodwizard]

The Pics on the Gibson site look much better. I think it looks pretty cool. Would love to pick on it for awhile. Red spruce top, one piece back w/Waverly's. It's got some class. But I agree ... An Oval Hole would be soooooo Coooool!! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[John Flynn]

Quote (JimRichter @ April 28 2008, 16:22)
...And by the way, wasn't the Victorian period over by the 1913?

That's just a minor technicality. # #
Another minor technicality is that the term "Victorian Era" generally refers to an era in British history. Given that Gibsons were built in the US, the term would seem a little out of place even if the dates were correct. I guess calling it a "Wilson Administration" model would not sound as good, though!

[man dough nollij]

Were there any advantages to the older construction? I gather that F4s had short necks and lower fingerboards, and wider necks, right? I'm wondering if there are tonal or other advantages to those old specs. I'm a big fan of the oval-hole sound, and I think the F4 is one of the more attractive vintage mandos. I'm curious if it would be feasible or even desirable to make a true F4 clone. Is it a given that the longer scale is better? Just curious.

[mrmando]

...And by the way, wasn't the Victorian period over by the 1913?
That's just a minor technicality. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
1913 would be the George V period, which wouldn't mean much to most American mandolin players...

[MikeEdgerton]

Is it a given that the longer scale is better?

I think you'll find that the scale was the same, there were more frets clear of the body, thus the neck is longer. The scale remains the same.

[Bill Snyder]

If they are building them in a limited run of 15 you would think they could have made them oval holes. I agree with Mike and a few others, then it would have made since to market it as a melding of the F4/F5's.

[Albert Whiting]

Isnt the fingerboard extension the same as what DUff and Gilchrist is using?

[dhmando]

The Victorian F-5 definitely has it's own unique sound. The varnish is aged not distressed. Distressing is much more involved. The DMM is a faithful reproduction of a Loar period F-5, hence, it is priced higher than the Victorian F-5.

[Paul Hostetter]

1913 is the year Henry Ford inaugurated his assembly line.

Nah. Wilson Era has a nicer ring to it.

[Stephanie Reiser]

This mandolin features a double flowerpot that extends into the truss rod cover, {a first!}
A first for Gibson, maybe. A well-known builder on this board has built an F-4 with the lower half of a double flowerpot inlayed into the TR cover.

I don't care for that crackled finish or the bound (in this case) F-holes. And I also do not believe that it has enough in common with the 1913 F-4 to call it an F-4/F-5 hybrid.
And as far as marketing tactics or whatever, I see nothing at all with trying to sell a product.

[dhmando]

Isnt the fingerboard extension the same as what DUff and Gilchrist is using?
The fingerboard extension was a Gibson inovation pre 1910.

[Ken Sager]

It's nice that David Harvey posted his intent here. It's got to be nice to build lovely instruments and have the ability to take new ideas to completion.

I have to admit, though, that I don't get the mixed world$ here. Why not build an F4 by taking the be$t of the rich hi$tory of Gib$on's F4 ae$thetic$ and combine it with today'$ technology and build quality. I $ee it mainly a$ an opportunity to $ell $omething new to an in$ecure market driven in large part by fad and flavor-of-the-day $ale$ pitche$. Why $peculate on what Lloyd Loar would have built had he joined Gib$on 9 year$ earlier? Why not honor the beautiful F4'$ of the teen$ with a modern F4?

Cynical? Why, ye$ I am. It'$ what I do.

Love to all,
Ken

[Bill Snyder]

Mr. Harvey I am glad that you chose to post and I hope you are not run off by the remarks, but I agree that if you are going to invoke the F-4's name an oval hole is what most expect to see.

[dhmando]

I certainly appreciate all the input here, and saying we should do F-4s again is preaching to the choir!

[Ken Sager]

I like you David Harvey. You build lovely instruments and you're a nice guy. I mean that sincerely. I hope you know I mean no offense.

Best,
Ken

[dhmando]

Thanks Ken. Gibson has a rich history and we have exciting plans for the future!

[bradeinhorn]

so where'd the name come from david?

[Bryan Monarch]

I really like the look of the Instrument, not so sure about the crackled finish, but the pictures that are further away from the camera look nice :P If it sounds good, that's all that should really matter anyways right? The oval hole idea would have been pretty nice, not really sure why they ever decided to discontinue the ovals, just because of Bill's F5 probably....

[MikeEdgerton]

...just because of Bill's F5 probably....
It took place a long time before Bill's F5 was part of the equation.

[MikeEdgerton]

A first for Gibson, maybe. A well-known builder on this board has built an F-4 with the lower half of a double flowerpot inlayed into the TR cover.
You're right, I have been looking for that picture and haven't been able to find it.

[Bill Snyder]

I really like the look of the Instrument, not so sure about the crackled finish, but the pictures that are further away from the camera look nice ...
I you take a look at the pictures here (http://www.gibson.com/en-us/Divisions/Gibson%20Original/Gibson%20Mandolins/F-5Victorian/) the finish does not appear to be crackled.
That link is goofy try this one (http://www.gibson.com/en-us/Divisions/Gibson%20Original/Gibson%20Mandolins/)and click on the F-5 Victorian tab.

[reverhar]

I played 'The Victorian' this weekend at Merlefest. #It plays and sounds great. #The pictures previously posted from NAMM do not do the mandolin justice as it is very impressive. #Thanks Dave Harvey for your hospitality, you are a great guy. #

Rick E.

[chip]

Looks pretty darn nice to me. List price is $15,000?
Certainly not Victorian prices..ha
Mandolins sure are expensive...

[dmamlep]

so how many would step up and buy it if it were an oval hole. I play bluegrass, and Bill picked an F5 for that sound. same here. I am just glad Gibson isn't sitting around,but trying to make a better mandolin. And with times maybe like anyone else try to find something that will sell. and get people talking, like us.

[Stephanie Reiser]

A first for Gibson, maybe. A well-known builder on this board has built an F-4 with the lower half of a double flowerpot inlayed into the TR cover.
You're right, I have been looking for that picture and haven't been able to find it.
I hope she doesn't mind me posting this pic of her F-model mandolin with a double inlay (inlay nicer than Gibson's) on the TR cover.
THis mandolin is what has driven me insane over F-4's

[Ken Olmstead]

Now THAT is what I think of when I see those 2 characters F4!! Beautifull!!

[J.Albert]

theBlood wrote:
<< This product almost suggests that there is something undesirable about F-4's. I mean, why doesn't Gibson make something like that now, anyway? I've acquired 2 old Gibson oval holes this year (A-1 & F-4) and am amazed at the sound quality. Why wouldn't Gibson want to honor that era and the design that sold over 50 thousand instruments? >>

I'm thinking that if this production run of the "Victorian" sells out quickly, that it probably wouldn't be all that difficult to re-issue the mandolin with [essentially] the same dimensions and appointments, but this time in an oval-hole version. Honestly, how many here would be willing to spend that much for an oval-hole f-model, even if done to roughly the same standards as a Master Model? Could they sell 15 of them?

Regarding the bound f-holes, are they dimensionally the same as those on the Lawson and Goldrush, yielding a slightly more "bassy" coloring?

- John

[f5loar]

As long as you can get the real deal pre40's F4 for half the price of a new F4 why would Gibson do that? There is no shortage of pre40's Gibson F4/F2 models. You don't see Loars for half the price of the new ones. There is not a week that goes by that you do not see a few for auction on ebay. Most of the acoustic vintage dealers seem to always have one or two in stock at all times. And Gibson did do a post war round hole model. It was called the A5 made from 1957 to 1979. They didn't sell too well.

[Gail Hester]

Nice idea. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Bernie Daniel]

I was out yesterday and missed most of this Victorian discusion. #I had a couple thoughts. #

It is an very interesting, fresh idea -- as well as being quite practical. #

There is nothing a fine as an F2/F4 fingerboard to play on especially if you are used to it. #

I switch back and forth often between my F2 and F5 and overall the F2 is better (comparable set up) for playing in my opinion. So that is a plus -- for some -- not all.

The aesthetics are unique and present the F-model mandolin in a new light. #Keep up the excitment -- you will know that as it will be copied.

I wish they'd do a new long neck oval hole too.

But meanwhile and this is to Dave Harvey. #

Does this mean tha Gibson company might be willing to start selling new old-style pickguard clamps so a lot of us could finally finish restoring old F- adn A-models?

Did Gibson restart manufacture of these clamps or is that why you only made 15 copies of the Victorian! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Tom Mylet]

This "reissue" seems like a great step in the right direction and I for one hope it's successful enough for Gibson to continue moving in further in that direction. Gibson, like Martin Guitars and Harley Davidson motorcylces suffers from an interesting forms of competition: The secondary market of their old products and people making copies of their classic stuff. I too love the pickguard clamp.

Let's hope this is successful enough that they can start doing more correctly detailed reissues. I assume the mandolin section of the Original Instrument unit of whatever the mothership/comgolmerate is called, is a very small part that really doesn't make sense to the numbers guys. I'm all for them marketing their incredible legacy and hope this makes them successful to do more.

I'm sure Dave Harvey and the guys on the floor are hoping for the same so they can build the instruments we all'd like to see and play. Thanks, Dave.

Tom Mylet
'29 F-4: '02 Sam Bush, among others

[TomTyrrell]

I would have been surprised if Gibson was trying to sell a $15,000 F4 reproduction... You can buy a really nice original Gibson F4 for less money.

Maybe they decided to make a "Victorian" 'cause they don't have to pay royalties to a dead Queen.

[Jim Broyles]

You mean they might do a Freddie Mercury model?

[MikeEdgerton]

Nice idea. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
Yes Gail, and you did it before they did it so we'll call yours the first. Yours also looks like an F4. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Bernie Daniel]

Mike: Yes Gail, and you did it before they did it so we'll call yours the first. Yours also looks like an F4. #


For sure she is the first on that idea -- probably Dave did not know about it -- but maybe Gibson can still claim to be the first factory to do it! #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Gail, have you considered using flat topped black coated (like anodized aluminum) screws to hold that engraved trus rod cover? #I assume the cover itself is ebony? #Whatever it really looks attractive and it is nice to have more flowery-like flowers in the flowerpot!

[Tom C]

I like it.

[MikeEdgerton]

I think Gail actually tries to stay pretty close to the period.

[danb]

Here's a 1985 nugget (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_mando.pl?3304) peghead..



http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/100_nugget_peghead2.jpg

[MikeEdgerton]

Well then I guess there were two before Gibson http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[jim_n_virginia]

You know, I just don't get it. I keep reading that this is a mix between the F4 and the F5 but it looks like an F5 with the torch and wire inlay on the headstock and the pickguard clamp from an F4. I just don't see that as much of a mix.
It has the double torch inlay, no truss rod, no truss rod cover, F-4 color, one piece back, pickguard, F-4 scale length fret board and the F-4 fret board end (short Florida)

It also has F-5 F holes.

It think this qualifies as a hybrid.

I agree Handel reproduction tuners would have been awesome.

I think $15K is a great price for this mandolin and I only WISH I could get one! Every one of the models will be sold very quickly. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[Bill Snyder]

It DOES have a truss rod and a truss rod cover. The truss rod cover is just inlayed to blend in. F4's and F5's are the same scale length and have always had the same scale length, 13 7/8".

[MikeEdgerton]

F-4 scale length...
I think you'll find the scale length is the same on both. As for the difference between an F4 and F5 neck, it's an F5 neck.

[goldtopper]

Neat looking, BUT
No oval sound hole = No F4

[JeffD]

I would love to try one and see what it feels like to play.

[f5loar]

There is some guy that is taking stock tuner buttons and inlaying them like Handels. Maybe Gibson should "sub" out that guy to make them for Gibson and then make this model really look F4ish. When I first saw it last week I thought it was more like something someone else would do so Gibson wouldn't sue them. Then I saw the "The Gibson" at the top and the fact Dave Harvey was playing it and then I could see where they are going with this. Martin Guitars is doing this and it sells.

[BlueMountain]

Mr. Harvey, congratulations on a beautiful mandolin. I hope it sells out in minutes.

But the people in your instrument naming department need to be sent back to school. College? High school? Grade school?

Queen Victoria died on January 22, 1901! The Victorian Period came to an end.
Then came Edward VII. This is known as the Edwardian Period.
George V took the throne in 1910. 1913 is part of the GEORGIAN Period. (Alas, I guess we're in the Georgian period now, too, right?)

But there was NEVER a VICTORIAN PERIOD in the UNITED STATES, and it certainly wasn't going on in 1913!

How about the WILLIAM HOWARD TAFT mandolin? He was president until March 4, 1913. How about the WOODROW WILSON mandolin? He was president for most of 1913. How about "The Wilsonian"?

Sorry about the display of emotion, but I teach Victorian Poetry at my university. The ending date is 1900, and I don't teach any American poets in the class. So it hits me hard.

In summary: great mandolin; ignorant choice of name; send the namers back to school. (Well, let's be fair. Can my students name the year Victoria died by the end of the semester? I doubt it--despite my ministrations. So maybe we can give them a break. But they could have checked on Google.

[JEStanek]

There is some guy that is taking stock tuner buttons and inlaying them like Handels. Maybe Gibson should "sub" out that guy to make them for Gibson and then make this model really look F4ish. When I first saw it last week I thought it was more like something someone else would do so Gibson wouldn't sue them. Then I saw the "The Gibson" at the top and the fact Dave Harvey was playing it and then I could see where they are going with this. Martin Guitars is doing this and it sells.
That would be Mike Blohm and they are lovely.

Here are some of his... They are (justly) pricey per set.

[Keith Erickson]

Mr Harvey,

It looks beautiful!!!

Do you have any sound clips to share with us?

I like many others wish you all the best success with the Victorian model http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[Paul Hostetter]

Doug Unger:

http://www.lutherie.net/unger.3pt.hdstck.jpg

[MikeEdgerton]

Is there a truss rod cover on that? I can't see it.

[tkdboyd]

Victorian Influence: "The two general styles that were made between 1845 and 1915 are referred to as "Victorian" and "Turn-of-the-century". The former has many sub styles the most common being Rococo Revival, Renaissance Revival, Gothic Revival, Egyptian Revival, Aesthetic, and Eastlake."

Victorian meant more than just an Queen on a thrown. It is used to describe social norms, furniture, architecture , medicine, etc., etc. and in the US, Victorian mores most certainly influenced society. The Victorian hold on mores did not really begin to unravel until the outbreak of WWI; and didn't really change until after the Peace.

Although it would be chronologically correct to end the Victorian era in 1901 if all it was referring to was a monarchy.(Irony,with that being her year of her death, why do you not teach all of the "true" Victorian Period? You listed that your cut off is 1900! British writer Sir Arthur Conan Doyle is normally considered a Victorian writer, but he wrote after the Queen's death, did he suddenly become a Edwardian writer?) There are many other disciplines that use the term Victorian, if you are offended by it in your discipline, then ignore other people's usage. But I doubt the Empire's influence around the world during Queen Victoria's reign can be so neatly encapsulated to just fit her life and death or your definition within your field of study.

Not meant to be argumentative, just a different take on the situation...

[John Hill]

Doug Unger:

http://www.lutherie.net/unger.3pt.hdstck.jpg
Understated.

[Keith Erickson]

Mark,

Right on!!! I wanted to say this but I was afraid that I would have been publicly reprimanded for speaking my mind.

...but unfortunately it's been about 20 years since history has been properly taught in most public schools....BUT that's another story.

As for this mandolin: I am sure that when the good folks at Gibson decided to market the Victorian Era mandolin, they did their proper research in order not make themselves look bad.

I have to say this is a beautiful mandolin. It is a shame that I love the look of the F model but I prefer to play the A models instead. F's feel awkward to me.

Again I wish Gibson all the best of success http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

[foldedpath]

But there was NEVER a VICTORIAN PERIOD in the UNITED STATES, and it certainly wasn't going on in 1913!

Agreed on the latter, but in terms of the visual arts and architecture, of course there was an American Victorian period. I live in a US national historic district -- a "Victorian seaport" where we have a Victorian festival every year to celebrate the town's heyday at the end of the 1800's. The term is usually applied more to architecture these days, but there were other artistic elements of the period here in the USA like wallpaper patterns, furniture, etc. The "Victorian" style traveled a lot further than the Queen's empire.

The 1913 period would be more "Arts and Crafts" if we're talking visual styles. The F5 mandolin is an odd duck though. It's the one surviving popular instrument that does retain the ridiculously ornate style of the Victorian period. So even though it's not historically correct for the years when the design finally matured, I'd cut Gibson some slack for calling this a Victorian model. It's a look back to a different time. The scrolls and pointy bits don't have any relation to the clean lines of the Arts and Crafts movement in the teens and twenties, or the later Art Deco styles.

[BlueMountain]

I suppose that beautiful mandolin is as "Victorian" as some Gibsons are "Venetian." Onward with the tradition of misnaming. I love the Arts & Crafts style, but probably the closest Gibson came to that was the Army/Navy, which sometimes actually had that greenish brown cast popular in Arts & Crafts fumed oak.

There was some lovely furniture that came out of England during the Victorian era, such as the work of William Morris and his craftsmen and women. However, a great deal of Victorian era furniture was heavy, ungainly stuff. Actually, one could argue that the most Victorian bit of design ever associated with a Gibson was the backs of those mandolins Gibson made himself that looked like some of the wooden toilet seats and lids of the period. Ungainly, but showing a lot of Victorian influence.

I wonder if the English architects of the Victorian period referred to the American knock-offs as "Atlantic Rim" Victorians and complained about their tone?

[dhmando]

so where'd the name come from david?
From me. I personally associate black topped Gibson insturments with the Victorian era.

[Glassweb]

The DMM is a faithful reproduction of a Loar period F-5...
Sorry, but I respectfully disagree...

[Cullowheekid]

Warning.The Loar police have arrived.

[chip]

Oh brother.... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[Glassweb]

Hey, at least I said I "respectfully" disagree! What can I say... I am so much a vintage Gibson fan and in particular a Loar era fan that all these weird attempts at a "vintage" vibe just seem silly to me. I know some other Cafe members appear to be pretty gung-ho for Gibson's latest creation, but I would definitely place my dollars and bets elsewhere for a really great F style mandolin. How about an amazing Kimble or Ellis custom made to your specs for thousands less? Why not support all the amazing luthiers that are alive today... they're the future of mandolins... not the current incarnation of "lifestyle" Gibson. The legend that was Kalamazoo died many, many years ago... long live Lloyd Loar.

[Paul Hostetter]

We're in a world of trouble now...http://www.lutherie.net/no.pity.gif

[Glassweb]

We're in a world of trouble now...http://www.lutherie.net/no.pity.gif
I love it Paul... right on!

[brunello97]

Long ago life was clean
Sex was bad, called obscene
And the rich were so mean
Stately homes for the lords
Croquet lawns, village greens
Victoria was my queen

I've always like the Kinks POV on it.

No mandolin content, except on my lap now. Kind of a fun tune.

Mick

[Ted Eschliman]

Understand, I'm not chiding, nor critiquing any of the previous posters, so guys don't get your radar up--this warning is not meant for you. I do have to caution, however, these types of threads usually end up with the old Moderator lock button, and quite selfishly, I think discussion on this instrument (like it or not) is far to interesting #to stop.

With that in mind, let's maintain the restraint and civility already demonstrated here. Thanks, Gentlemen.

[dhmando]

Why not support all the amazing luthiers that are alive today...



While everyone is entitled to support their favorite anything, when someone buys a Gibson mandolin, be assured you ARE supporting a group of amazing luthiers, carrying on the traditions started by Gibson, over 100 years ago. Yes, they are living breathing luthiers, alive today.....not robots! These are American workers that take great pride in an American product! These craftsmen feed their families and pay bills with the money they earn. #RESPECTFULLY, Gibson is doing everything possible to honor its heritage and secure its future.

[Ken Olmstead]

I think many of us hope for a real deal Gibson F4 reissue. Of course I doubt many of us would pony up given the still obtainable originals and the price the nice folks at Gibson would have to charge to make it economically feasable.

But hey cool pictures, tense conversation and a history lesson...now that is what makes for a great thread!! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Mike Black]

If Gibson were to do a another signature series or vintage instrument. #I'd like to see a reproduction of the greatest jazz mando, Jethro's Big Red!

[Glassweb]

If Gibson were to do a another signature series or vintage instrument. #I'd like to see a reproduction of the greatest jazz mando, Jethro's Big Red!
Considering the era during which they were made, those A5 Florentines were often wonderful mandolins. Super-playable necks and a very punchy, clear tone on some of them. Good enough for Jethro...

[TomTyrrell]

Gee, I always thought Orville's first scrolled mandolin happened before 1900. I was also under the impression that the top was black on those. Wouldn't that make the origin of the black-face scrolled mandolin during the Victorian era?

BTW, the Gibson marketing department hasn't always shown concern with historical accuracy. They do tend to rewrite history when it is convenient.

[JEStanek]

I don't think Gibson is alone on marketing and historical facts. I guess until Gibson and Collings start cranking out oval holes, the market is all Weber, Eastman, and small shop builders for mid to high level instruments. Nothing wrong with that given the ease with which you can get a playing vintage Gibson oval hole. Everytime the new Gibson oval hole was brought up in the past Joe Vest would talk about retooling costs forms, jigs, and what not not making the oval hole feasable if memory serves. I wonder if Gibson couldn't quickly sell a small production run of an F4/F5 hybrid with the long necked, elevated finger board, tone barred, oval holed instrument?

Jamie

[MikeEdgerton]

RESPECTFULLY, Gibson is doing everything possible to honor its heritage and secure its future.
Being a Gibson owner I do appreciate that. I just wonder about the methods used to announce this product. Might it have been better if you had just announced it in a normal manner? With all respect to Gibson, the methods used by the OP are pretty transparent when one does a simple Google on the username.

The members of the cafe do listen to what you, Danny, and (in a previous life time) Joe Vest say. People respect your opinions.

[tkdboyd]

From the very first paragraph in Gib$on's article(which I do not own one, used to have a '66 Melody Maker, sweet little guitar!) about the "Victorian" :

"The year was 1913. One year before the “war to end all wars” broke out in Europe, Katharine Lee Bates was busy completing her inspired final edits to the third and final installment of “America the Beautiful.” Meanwhile, the Victorian Era in America was just about finished, though many tried desperately to hold on as the Progressive Era was in full swing."

In culture,(as well as architecture, fashion, literature, etc.,etc.) there is a dialectic movement. A push and pull mechanism that usually is penned by philosophers , scientists, sociologists,etc. discussed at the University and the local salon. These ideas take time to make there way into the mainstream, so Victorian Mores were still the norm for the average American especially 700 miles from NYC and 3500 miles from London.

From the paragraph written by Gib$on they seem to be talking about "era" a collective of ideals and social mores. Not a Queen on a throne, a specific fashion, or a style of toilet seats.

There are more connotations to words than just their denotations!

[Timbofood]

I must admire the tact amd decorum that Mr. Harvey is (and has) demonstrating. some of the statements here have been a little terse and could easily be taken as attacks, By far I see the tenor of this thread being informative and most interesting. Since we are using this forum I can only presume all have computers and know a little about how to use them, checking facts is easier now than ever before, we should do a little research about dates if they are to be bandied about willy- nilly. (My parents were teachers)

[tkdboyd]

$ usage as an S wasn't meant to be derogatory or mean spirited but showing my none loyalty to branding, and the fact that they do cost a lot of money, of course whether or not they are worth the $ opinion only.

Of course I'll take one of those new Gibsons Mr. Harvey for vigorously defending Gibson's terminology..

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[bradeinhorn]

RESPECTFULLY, Gibson is doing everything possible to honor its heritage and secure its future.
Being a Gibson owner I do appreciate that. I just wonder about the methods used to announce this product. Might it have been better if you had just announced it in a normal manner? With all respect to Gibson, the methods used by the OP are pretty transparent when one does a simple Google on the username.

The members of the cafe do listen to what you, Danny, and (in a previous life time) Joe Vest say. People respect your opinions.
seriously....

i find it very curious that a gibson employee, like the original poster here, would have JUST seen this model for the first time yesterday. also thought the little plug for garrison mandolins (also old news) was a little odd and out of place.

gatorgabe has started quite a long thread, but something tells me we won't be hearing much more from him...

[TomTyrrell]

Why spend money to advertise your products when you can just start a thread on a forum?

[San Rafael]

And nobody but Gibson markets their mandolins here, right?

There is a 1913 blacktop (redback) F2 in the classified ads right now if anybody wants to do a comparison.

[bradeinhorn]

And nobody but Gibson markets their mandolins here, right?

There is a 1913 blacktop (redback) F2 in the classified ads right now if anybody wants to do a comparison.
not like that - faking ignorance in a thread to generate discussion and not being up front about connections to the company.

that said-i think the 99.99% of what gibson has contributed here and mandolins in general is quite positive, and i feel they put up with all kinds of unnecessary bashing here. my comment was not directed at the company, but at the individual act of this thread starter.

[Ken Olmstead]

I wonder how this thread would be different if Dave had just posted pictures and features of the new instrument like Rick does with the Webers and other builders do with their instruments. Self-promoting? Yes, but who doesn't do that? (See me on youtube!) I don't think it was a purposeful attempt at being devious but it is a little distasteful in the way it has unfolded. I still don't like the instrument but I am sure some will. I would like to see it in person as the photos make the texture look just too funky.

Which, brings me to another point. If Gibson had posted photos first, they could have the adavantage of posting photos that show its best attributes rather than just a couple of snapshots.

[Ken Olmstead]

I did not do the Google. It seems pointless to me to advertise in this way when there are some many better options. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[danb]

The DMM is a faithful reproduction of a Loar period F-5...
Sorry, but I respectfully disagree...
Tonally they do very well, though Steve is right on target.. the phrase "faithful reproduction" opens up the can of worms and listing of nuances, and it's a big can!

There are quite a few details, construction methods, etc that are not right to the discerning Loar-spoiled eye on a master model or DMM.

[Will Kimble]

Hey David, the "Victorian" looks great! #Don't crackle the finish so much on the next one, OK? #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Gibson is lucky to have you on board, I hope to see you around soon.

Will Kimble
www.kimblemandolins.com

[Rich Michaud]

Well folks, I played the Victorian at Merlefest and listened to Dave Harvey play it as well as my friend Bud Martin. I fell in love with it and ordered one then and there through Jackson's Music which had the Gibson display. I liked it better than the distressed Master Model and the Master Model. Admittedly, it was the prototype, so I still have to hear the one I ordered. Once the deal goes through I will post pictures etc. here. Rich Michaud

[Gutbucket]

I'd love to have one. As far as crackle crazing, Momma said "crackle is as crackle does". They look a heck of a lot better than a Fender Relic. I liked the tone and playability of that particular Victorian more then any Gibson mandolin on the table at Merlefest. I think a real reissue F-4 would also be sweet on a limited basis. I don't believe the retooling issue is all that valid.

[Glassweb]

I think a real reissue F-4 would also be sweet... I don't believe the retooling issue is all that valid.
I agree. You gonna tell me that Gibson USA doesn't have the resources to retool for an F4? Puh-leeez! I mean, wouldn't it be great if you could walk into a dealer and find a new and authentically reproduced Loar F5, F4 and snakehead A4 and A5? THAT's the Gibson heritage... not all this "distressed" this and "victorian" that nonsense. I can hear it now... "uh, let's take an F4, an F5, an F10 with a chicken-fried top finish and a really ugly oversize pickguard and throw 'em in a pot... wave a magic wand and PRESTO - FRANKENMANDO!

"yes master... a most splendid idea... our operation is a stunning success!"

[TomTyrrell]

A shill is a shill, no matter who they are employed by.
Absolutely!

What would have been so wrong about saying "Hey guys, I just got the official photos up on the web site."

That bit about the other brand and "I heard the company was just purchased by Gibson" is simply ridiculous considering the source. What the guy doesn't even read his own web site?

[TomTyrrell]

You gonna tell me that Gibson USA doesn't have the resources to retool for an F4? Puh-leeez!
I don't think it is a question of whether they can make an F-4 but could they get the price low enough to actually sell them? I'm not likely to buy one new one for the price of two originals.

[sgarrity]

Hey Dan--

What are the details that Gibson has missed on the MM and DMM when compared to a Loar?
Or is there another thread where this has been covered?

[Glassweb]

I don't think it is a question of whether they can make an F-4 but could they get the price low enough to actually sell them? I'm not likely to buy one new one for the price of two originals.
That's fair enough... but you've got a guy above who's just ordered a $15K "Victorian Splice". Look, people have spent more than that on Gilchrist F4 copies and Hans makes fantastic F4 mandolins for a more than fair price. I have no doubt that if Gibson were to make F4s of the quality that Hans and Steve are able to achieve they'd be able to sell them at a premium. Frankly, I'm really surprised that Collings has not done an F4 or A4 snake up to this point... they'd nail 'em for sure...

[Eddie Sheehy]

I have a GARRISON Octave Mandolin - OM-20. Pretty decent instrument. Appears to have the synthetic bracing system - about half of the guitar one. I'd rate it much better than a Trinity College but not quite as good as a Weber Sage I. Cedar top, Birch back and sides. I haven't seen anything recently regarding Gibson's plans for the factory.

[sgarrity]

Collings has played with the idea but then they started their line of electric guitars and that took lots of time and man power. #And apparently they weren't convinced that there was enough of a market for ovals. #I'd buy an oval MT in a heartbeat! #Or the F4C Hans has in the classifieds. #Looks just like the real thing and would probably sound just as good to! #(I'm slightly biased) http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[bradeinhorn]

weber seems to make a lot of archtop oval hole mandos. i don't see why collings couldn't do the same. i'd like to see the big G reissue the Ajr-4 Snakeheads though. i bet those would do well. i'd personally find it hard not to justify snatching one up.:)

maybe we could convince them to a mandolincafe limited edition snake like martin did for the umgf forum?http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[MikeEdgerton]

Maybe they could make them at Garrison....

[Ken Olmstead]

Maybe they could make them at Garrison....
Mike, you sarcasm kills me! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[bradeinhorn]

have you guys heard of garrison mandolins? i hear gibson bought the company or something. they also might have something to do with those new flatirons. did i mention epiphone?

[danb]

Hey Dan--

What are the details that Gibson has missed on the MM and DMM when compared to a Loar?
Or is there another thread where this has been covered?
There is quite a list, but it's somewhat scattered around on the boards. I think the original loar picture of the day thread has a few lists of details..

Some of them..

Peghead:
- the originals aren't inlayed ebony, they're pearwood/holly veneers with a black ink topcoat. the "inlay" was really marquetry, and originally covered with black ink/shellac. This was scraped and revarnished. Hence they patina in a singular way, showing a completely different kind of wear from ebony, and there are frequently "underscraped" inlay artifacts etc that show the technique
- Tuner plates were considerably lighter than any available today, even the modern waverlies that look right are quite a bit heavier

Binding:
- The original body binding is thicker than most modern
repros
- The body points have dovetailed "point protectors" made of bone on the originals
- The frets were put on before the fingerboard was bound, hence original frets do not overhang binding, and have little "nibs" made of binding on the sides of the frets even where the binding was levelled down around the frets
- the original fretwire is much thinner than anything produced at gibson nowadays
- fingerboard shape- the extension has a certain asymmetry to it for whatever reason, and is usually quite easy to spot
- the heel cap binding is tapered matching the curve of the heel on originals

Bridges:
- The adjusting wheels are not rounded and small like the originals
- the bass foot of the bridge is thicker than the treble on originals.. Darryl's have this

Pickguards:
- the binding creates a sort of blend area with the tortiseshell ivoroid that does not show up on the modern ones.
- the edges of the guards are smooth/rounded, not sharply cut like the modern ones

Scroll:
- The scrolls on the originals vary by batch, but generally have more of a clean curve to them than the newer ones

Tailpiece:
the cover is silver plate on originals with something like nail varnish protecting it. The patina it takes on varies considerably from the modern ones

I'm sure I've missed several!

I'm not trying to criticize Gibson or the DMMs (which I think sound very good), but I think it's more appropriate to say they are influcenced by the 20's F5s than to say they are faithful reproductions. There are many many aspects of the build that can be taken "too far" to get them original, and I don't see Gibson doing it with regards to all of the original construction details that some of the geeks like me have an eye for.

I think to get a really faithful reproduction, you need to have a builder with a really burning urge to get it all right, despite economics, despite how much longer it will take, and despite all the extra lessons required to be learned on the way for little other gain than to really satisfy a Loar geek!

What I've found, is that to "go there", you would end up paying *much more* than the cost of a DMM to get everything right, if it was done in a way that rewarded the builder fairly. There are too many parts simply not available, or requiring custom runs.

I'm currently working with Nancy Paganoni to get a loar repro case "just right", and this has involved many phone conversations and trips to silk velvet sellers all over the place to find the right stuff. Still not there yet, and I honestly have no idea how I'm able to keep this fanatacism going at the pace that it is..


So basically, economics is the reason that you don't see faithful Loar reproductions in your corner store.

[Ken Olmstead]

Probably should not ask what differences exist between the originals and the new KM1000s huh?? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif That is amazing Dan that you actually know all that!!

[f5loar]

You left out the big difference: The signature on that 2nd label. If you could crack that difference you'd be on it.
CD told me getting minor changes at Gibson when he first started out was not an easy taking. But when you consider what they started with in the 1978 F5L as the begining of trying to get it better they have come miles down the road to almost being there. Some of those little details you mentioned don't affect the sound or look from 10 feet away.
Still they are not exact duplicates of the 20's Loars. And at what point does price affect ability to do it right? They probably have reached the max. on retail price of the DMM. The one big complaint you hear the most about new Gibson mandolins is the price. The higher price is what makes other luthiers stay in business so I guess it helps more than hurts. But like the difference in car prices you will find the market to buy both.

[sgarrity]

Thanks for taking the time to put that list together Dan. Great info!!

But for 99% of mando pickers out there, I still think you can call the MM and DMM "faithful reproductions." Or as my dad likes to say, "Close enough for government work! LOL There aren't many people out there that have the knowledge that you, Daryl and Tom do when it comes to vintage Gibbys. For me they got the most important part as close to right as I think they can and that's the sound. I've never played a bad one. And to me, they just look and feel "right."

Now back to this Victorian F4/5 Frankenmando........ http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Jonathan Peck]

Everytime the new Gibson oval hole was brought up in the past Joe Vest would talk about retooling costs forms, jigs, and what not not making the oval hole feasable if memory serves.
Well now, that finally makes sense of it. So it is an F-5 with some F-4 cosmetic features....is it a MM all dolled with a desirable wider fretboard and shorter fretboard extension.

Dave (eh...Mr. Harvey), I think this is a waaaay better idea than any of those artist models.

[TomTyrrell]

You left out the big difference: The signature on that 2nd label.
That's the easiest part to counterfeit.

[Glassweb]

for 99% of mando pickers out there, I still think you can call the MM and DMM "faithful reproductions."
Not true! 99% of the mando pickers out there have never spent any time playing a Loar, so they wouldn't know (or care) anyway. No way are these "faithful reproductions"... hell, they can't even get the finish right! Check out Hans Brentrup's website to see a truly faithful reproduction of the one and only "Griffith Loar A5". Now THAT's a success in my book. Or how about the F5 Jamie Weins made for Dan Beimborn... another stunning success.

[sgarrity]

I guess what I'm getting at is everything Dan listed in the above post is cosmetic and probably has little to no effect on the tone of the instrument. And like Tom mentioned, if you're standing 10 feet away you're definitely not going to notice those differences. So for me, they are good enough and I hope to own one some day. If you're one of the handful of Loar afficianados (sp??) that can spot these differences, then you probably own a Loar already and don't have much desire to own a reproduction anyway.

As for Hans' and Jaime's work....I've been a huge fan of Hans' work for a long time and have been fortunate enough to own two of them. They are exceptional instruments and his A5 copy is one of the best A-styles I've laid eyes on. It's another I'd love to add to the collection. I've only seen pics of Jaime's mandolins but it appears he goes to great lengths to get the details as close as possible. Another builder that has made some great vintage replicas is Gail Hester. Her recent pair of A5s caused some serious MAS!

Just for the record, I've never acutally had the opportunity to hold and play a Loar. Hint, hint..... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[f5loar]

You would be surprised of the number of Loar owners who also have a DMM. Here's a short list of well known pickers:
Doyle Lawson,Ricky Skaggs,John Reischman.
And true the average buyer would not know the difference in minor details. What they do notice is the 10 cents on the dollar price difference. DMM $22,500, Loar $225,00.

[Glassweb]

You would be surprised of the number of Loar owners who also have a DMM. Here's a short list of well known pickers:
Doyle Lawson,Ricky Skaggs,John Reischman.
Well shoot Tom, if Gibson is just handing out DMMs I'll take one for each of us!

[chip]

Maybe the reason they aren't doing oval holes is because the market isn't there. Heck, the average joe still asks if the mandolin is a banjo, ukulele, etc. Being that the quality mandolins command a price that most guitarists can't justify, it stands to reason that the market research doesn't show it's cost effective to tool up for an iffy product. Just a thought.

[danb]

There's more to that list.

The aesthetics are somewhat of a window into the process. Maybe that means something, maybe not. The tone on them is very good though, seems to target that midrange that a lot of loar buffs go for.

Fundamentally, I'm agreeing with Steve here.. that there are many builders who are answering the call of art and obsession in a way that Gibson is not able to, due to economic constraints.

I think they went the right way with tone over look, that's the most important thing for sure.

Again, just my opinion, but I don't think the distressing process on examples I've seen has resulted in "looks like a well played-in vintage piece", though it seems it does something good for the tone.

I see the wear patterns on the DMMs and I struggle to find a vintage example that they emulate.

[F5GR]

Well, I quess I have sat back and watched quite long enough. I'm fairly new to the mandolin world. This is the first post I've done. I've gone and checked out most of the posters youtube, myspace, websites, etc,etc since I joined the cafe. I stay in the background and try to learn. But you know, I've been around Dave Harvey a little bit and Dave is not just an employee of Gibson. He's a heck of a mandolin player in his own right and the son of a heck of a mandolin player, Dorsey Harvey. Now, for those who have set up shop here on the cafe it might sound to you that the criticism of the Victorian makes good ole business sense, especially if your in the mandolin business yourself. But, I have held that mandolin and listened to Dave play it. And I immediately loved it for all it's appointments but most of all I liked it for the love and "sweat equity" that I could tell Dave had put into it. Knowing there will only be 15 of them made, most folks on this forum will probably never see the need to own one. I quess I'm confused at the Gibson bashing (albeit for the sake of not getting censured) it is made to look in jest. I just hope Dave will continue to have visions, and make his own mark at Gibson as all others who went before him. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Ken Olmstead]

#I just hope Dave will continue to have visions, and make his own mark at Gibson as all others who went before him. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
I have every confidence that he will and believe he has done a fine job all ready. Can't be all things to all people and not everyone is going to like this piece. However, some people on this thread have stated that they really like it. I only have some low quality photos to view but I would love to see it in person. I have no doubt that it sounds good. He is also not a newbie to these kinds of discussions and has handled himself very well in my opinion. His vintage Gibson demonstration youtube vids are 100% gold and I applaud him as a musician and a craftsman.

[Bill Snyder]

Several keep talking about the crackled finish looking bad. The one shown at Gibson's site does not look bad at all.

[Bill Snyder]

And the back.

[Ken Olmstead]

Yeah, I could have swore the OP had some snaps that did not do it justice at all. I agree these photos show the same instrument in a very different light. I would think taking the pickguard off would help the asthetics for me quite a bit as well. I generally like blacktop and double "potted" instruments!

[Chris Biorkman]

Yeah, but the pictures that originally surfaced of the prototype looked pretty crackled. The new ones look much better.

[bradeinhorn]

the first one looks gorgeous. the second one looks like it had grape jelly smeared over the top of it.

[Chris Biorkman]

the first one looks gorgeous. the second one looks like it had grape jelly smeared over the top of it.
Mmmm... grape jelly. Someone a few days ago said it looked like that spray on bed liner they use for pickups. I think that's pretty accurate.

[OlderThanWillie]

And another nice thing about the Victorian is that Gibson put dots on the fingerboard at no extra charge.

[Ken Olmstead]

There is the Rhino Liner photo! Looks almost like 2 different mandos!

[Ted Eschliman]

For what it's worth, I was these one who took the pictures at the NAMM show booth in January. Lighting is never conducive to good photography; the flash on my camera never does justice in these environments either. #My experience with the instrument was very positive, though the vintage Gibson objective is not my particular cup of tea, this axe packed great tone and playability, and a compelling vintage panache.

[Rich Michaud]

I think it be helpful to add a few comments to the long list of comments to this thread. As I mentioned earlier, I bought one of these based on seeing, touching, playing and listening to the protype. #I thoroughly enjoyed talking at length with Dave Harvey and hearing him talk about and play the Victorian. #I did not purchase this lightly-and although I am not a pro player, I believe I know mandos fairly well and particularly the high end ones having previously purchased a Dude, a Nugget, 2 Montes, 2 Gils, 2 Brentrups, many Gibson F4s, snakeheads, A2Z, and a MM. The aged finish #is fine, the black against the red is a sight to behold, the one piece back is gorgeous, and most importantly, the sound is what drove me to order it with representations made by Dave Harvey that the instrument I am purchasing is equal to or better than the prototype. #Dave Harvey should be congratulated on having done a great job with this instrument. Rich

[stevem]

Sounds great Rich. I really like the look of the mandolin. The red back is just beautiful. I'd like to read a report of your impressions when it arrives, if you don't mind. Add some pictures too, as long as Ted's not behind the camera.
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[dhmando]

Thanks Rich! It was a pleasure getting to know you too.

[f5loar]

I saw Rich playing the VF5 and must say he's got it going on. Dave was sweatin' keeping up with him. I can't believe Tony Williamson didn't ask him to lead off the Mandomania this year at MerleFest. Rich knows what it takes to be the best of the best and if Rich says go for it then you can bet the farm on it being right. Rich was always ahead of the curve when it comes to finding the best new mandolin out there. There are going to be 15 very lucky Gibson pickers out there and 20 years from now Rich will say "I told you so".

[Rich Michaud]

I am happy to report that the Victorian, Serial Number 1, in all its glory, arrived this morning from Jackson's Music. As I am at work, I will have to wait to tonight to really play it. It is everthing I thought it would be based on playing the prototype at Merlefest and hearing Dave Harvey describe it for me. My thanks to the folks at Jackson's-they were a pleasure to deal with. I will post pictures over the next few days. Rich

[Keith Erickson]

Richard,

Would you mind posting some sound clips of your Victorian? #We're lóóking forward to hearing from you.

Thanks,