Distressed vs. played

[chip]

I noticed the new Weber that one of the members just bought that had been distressed. Through the years I've taken notice of other players instruments professional, amatuers, etc. and I don't see where the majority of the played mandolins have that look from real playiing. It's not that I like or dislike it it's a quesiton of how one plays their mandolin so hard that this would happen. I can see that if you've played for 10+, 20+ years on the road that this could happen but personally I take good care of my instruments and go to great lengths to not beat the *#!# out of them. Seems like their would be natural crackling of the finish after a period of years, and an occaisional ding or pick mark but not to the extent of the finish being worn off down to the raw wood. Even most mandolins with 50 years being played still have a resemblance of care. It's got to be a small percentage of players that play their instruments to the point that it would have that type of appearance and only after many many years of performance. Right? Wrong? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

[pjlama]

Right mostly. But everyone treats and plays their instruments differently. That's the problem each one of these distressed instruments is done similarly by their builders so they lack the authenticity of an older instrument. There are exceptions of course.

[testore]

the problem that I see most is that the distressing looks un natural, therefore it makes the new item look not right. It is a VERY hard thing to do to look natural and correct. Rather than "distressed" or "antiqued" these items should be called "shaded" because they don't look old. My interest and understanding of ageing a new item to look old comes from years of restoring 200-300 year old violins and making new wood look old enough to match old wood. It is extrememly difficult and I have not seen many who do it well, in violins or mandolins.

[JEStanek]

Look at photos of Mike Marshall's Monte Mandocello with a finger rest rub through the finish... Andy Statmans old A2Z, Thile's Dudes seem to have mic scuffs near the treble f holes. I take almost obsessive compulsive care of my instruments but, I'm not a pro using tools to earn a living. I don't think it's a matter of these performers not caring about their instruments. Rather, I think they use these very special tools how they need to to get their own sound.

For new instruments to look distressed is as much a decision as sunburst or not, or what kind of binding to use…IMO. They seem to me to be a personal preference. Perhaps, builders who do this drive the market for them, but people still buy them and are happy with it. If it’s a look someone wants, power to them. I think the only people who may notice are fellow players and not audience members in general. For me, its how well a performer, fellow jam member, plays (or is making a heartfelt effort) that ultimately impresses me more than the headstock name, price, finish, or country of origin do. Those things are secondary to how much fun the player is having or enjoyment/inspiration I get from their playing.

I went to a coffee house sized concert with Jay Smar (a PA singer songwriter) and his guitar was all beat up, had a big ole hole in the soundboard next to the rosette… still sounded great and authentic with his songs. He didn't buy it that way. It evolved (disolved) to this state over its life of playing with him.

Jamie

[sgarrity]

Gary's distressing is about as good as it gets IMHO

[testore]

Thanks Shaun, but I have missed MANY things by miles. I have also fooled a few people. It's always a huge challenge. It took Robert Bein about 6 seconds to ask if a Scarampella violin copy was mine. My success lasted 6 seconds, but I looked at that as a huge success.If I get an area the size of a quarter that I'm happy with then I feel like it was a success. There are sooooooo many things that just don't look right and most of the time you stumble on something that works. It is more difficult than you can imagine.

[Hans]

Some folks actually do beat their instruments to death. However, a very honest looking distressing that make the instrument look 50-80 years is difficult to do and is easily overdone. Patience and restraint are the keywords. Varnish instruments will look more beat than lacquer.
Here's a pix of JAK's distressed F5C. It has a few scratches and dings, a little wear on the scroll, arm wear around the bass side edge, the Gibson "crack", and tarnished and worn T/P. There is some simulated "dirt" on the fingerboard, in joints in the binding, pickguard is prescratched, and screws tarnished and the slots messed up. Tuners and buttons are slightly aged. Varnish is crazed in places.
All this said, I don't make many of these as most folk prefer shiny and can ding them up themselves.

[sgarrity]

I do agree that it would be very easy to over do it. But that Monroe copy that you made was excellent. It may not have been exact but it sure did look cool and definitely had that vintage vibe.
Hans' F5C looks great too. Just enough to make it look older but not enough to make it look like you took a file to it!

[Snakebeard Jackson]

My mandolin is distressing on its own. A major factor is I don't use a pick guard. I also use a hemp strap. So both my scroll and bottom onder wher I pick has been rubbign away for a fews now.
I have gig scratchs all over. Once my mandolin fell on the mike stand and there is a big old ding. I take great care of my mandolin. Playing is my 2nd job. However Since I only gig with the one same mandolin by the time my life with it is over my Weber will look beat up.

[tattiemando]

Personally I am playing my Mowry F5 and loving it but I have changed the style of my right hand. Ss I used to post my fingers and it started to shows signs of wear on the varnish where I posted my pinky. I have trained myself to stop posting my pinky and no more signs of wear there anymore.I have notice some dings on the scroll now but I feel whatever wear is on my mandolin I will live with it. I feel it all adds to the character of the musician and his axe. I really love mandolins that are well played and worn like Sam Bush's Hoss, Ronnie McCoury's Gil or Tim O'Briens Nugget

[Dan Cole]

My Weber Big Sky is distressing itself. I took the finish off the next because it seemed thick and heavy. Even before I did that the lacquer was chipping off the ridge-top edge of the scroll, and where the neck meets the peghead. I've pretty much given up on keeping it mint. I play it, have fun with it, and don't worry about scuffs, etc. I won't say I abuse it by any means.

[pjlama]

It's funny the two guys I think of as doing a very good distressing replied to the thread. I've never seen either's distressed work first hand but was thinking of them when I stated there are exceptions. I think if a builder takes great care it can be a very effective way to bring a warm feeling to an instrument.

[Glassweb]

...it can be a very effective way to bring a warm feeling to an instrument.
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif?

[pjlama]

I feel that older instruments or ones with heavy playing wear have a nice broken in feel and well done distressing can give a similar feel, that's all. Just my opinion.

[Ken Olmstead]

I am amazed at the art form that it has become. Of course it has been going on in the E Guitar world for a long time and there are some really convincing "relics" out there. It is not for me, but I appreciate the process as an art form and do understand why folks are attracted to it. The same reason I am attracted to scrolls, flame maple, gold plateing, gloss finish, flower pots and ect. I think it is real fun to own usable art! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

[Glassweb]

Of course it has been going on in the E Guitar world for a long time and there are some really convincing "relics" out there.
I agree that some of the "relectrics" are very convincing... in fact TOO convincing according to a vintage dealer friend of mine. But why distress a new mandolin? I mean... it's new! Yeah yeah... I've heard the arguments for doing this, but hardly any of these jobs look good or "convincing". Are you trying to say that the distressed Weber looks good? Please...
I can see Gibson's reasons for wanting to distress their Master Models... to look like a "real" Loar I guess. But whereas they seem to succeed tonally (amazingly on occasion) they have failed visualy. If you can't do it tastefully and convincingly then please, stay out of the kitchen...

[pjlama]

I think there's a difference between a distressed instrument and a copy/fake and I may not even be saying this right. Fender's relics look really badly done to me as I have much more experience with vintage Fenders than mandolins. I did have a DMM for a few days and I just don't know any better but it didn't blow me away. Conversely I have seen some very good Fender vintage fakes/copies. Those fakes were difficult to discern and had a wonderful vibe. I'm sure there's a few guys who can pull it off on a mando, Gary and Hans' stuff look pretty good. But if it's not a mandolin (manufacturer) that was available 80 years ago what's the point?

[Glassweb]

But if it's not a mandolin (manufacturer) that was available 80 years ago what's the point?
Exactly! And yes, I agree that Hans' and Gary's "aged" creations are probably the most successful out there...

[Mandolusional]

But if it's not a mandolin (manufacturer) that was available 80 years ago what's the point?
Exactly! And yes, I agree that Hans' and Gary's "aged" creations are probably the most successful out there...
If there's one thing we've learned from every thread about this, it's that it comes down to personal taste and opinion. Some distressed models I like, others, not so much, same with crisp new mandolins too. As far as, "what's the point," I think it depends what the buyer thinks the point is. If I want a Brentrup that looks 80 years old, I know I can get one without buying a shiny new one and wearing it down in double time so to speak. If I want a mandolin that fools people in the know into thinking I have a really old mandolin, well you're right, I should probably get one by a manufacturer who was around 80 years ago like Gibson.

I paint portraits and it's fun to try and make it look like it is centuries old even though I certainly wasn't alive back then. Art restorers (and forgers) use many special techniques and I think it's a challenge as an artist. No I'm not Titian and I never will be, nor I will not have the opportunity to see these paintings in 200 years and how they have aged. However I can try to capture a little bit of that magic for myself or someone who likewise will not be around in 200 years to see it. It's challenging and it's fun, and I think some people appreciate that in a way, like suspended disbelief.

Just another take. I see so many of these threads about new/distressed, but haven't seen any about what a newly distressed mandolin looks like after heavy play wear, anyone got one?

[markishandsome]

It's got to be a small percentage of players that play their instruments to the point that it would have that type of appearance and only after many many years of performance.

I think the percentage of people buying distressed instruments is even smaller. It's not like everybody's doing it, just a few folks with certain tastes. Live and let live.

[Mandolusional]

Live and let live.

Here here! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[chip]

The point of the thread that I was inquiring about has to do with distressing an instrument that appears such that it has been worn down to the raw wood. It's not a "live and let live" issue it's a question regarding playing an instrument so hard that it naturally looks beat vs. distressing an instrument cosmetically to appear to be so. I don't see very many instruments beat that hard. Most players take pretty good care of the instruments that I've seen. I certainly do. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[h2o-X]

I suspect that most pickers do not play enough to wear through the finish on their instruments. Or, if they do play that much, they take care to not harm the finish. But, I have seen several guitars and a few mandolins that are down to raw wood in large areas or small patches.

One of my old friends has a '56 D18 that he has gigged regularly since the early 70's. He has almost worn a hole in the top next to the pickguard. In another decade it may look like Willie's Trigger. Another guy I used to know had a 60's Guild that has finish missing all over the top. One of my friends bought a '47 SJ that had no finish left on the upper bouts next to the fretboard and had a giant patch (8-9" diameter) of missing finish on the back. That guitar has been road hard and put away wet many times.

[markishandsome]

Maybe you baby your instrument, maybe 99% of pickers do too. So what? When I see a pair of size 18 sneakers at the mall, I don't ask "Why would anyone want shoes that big? I wear a 9 and a half!" I don't happen to prefer the look of a scooped fingerboard extension, but I don't start threads asking why someone else would because I understand that people's tastes differ.

My mandolin has a bunch of big scratches under the scroll similar to the one in Hans's picture above. I didn't put them there to look good and was pretty bummed the first time it happened, but they don't bother me anymore. If I have the instrument another 10 years it will probably have a good square inch of raw wood showing in that area.

Some people are careful with their instruments, some don't. Some people want to buy dirty old looking instruments, some don't. I guess the answer to your "question" seemed so obvious to me (diffrent strokes...) and since this topic has been beat to death in so many previous threads I assumed you were trying to take a jab at someone, hence the live and let live comment. I'm sorry if I misjudged your intent.

[woodwizard]

That's a good pre-poker picture. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Ken Olmstead]

Ah yes...the fireplace poker. The ultimate "distressing" tool!! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[chip]

[QUOTE]Maybe you baby your instrument, maybe 99% of pickers do too. So what? When I see a pair of size 18 sneakers at the mall, I don't ask "Why would anyone want shoes that big? I wear a 9 and a half!" I don't happen to prefer the look of a scooped fingerboard extension, but I don't start threads asking why someone else would because I understand that people's tastes differ.

geez dude calm down...take a chill pill or something...you missed the point entirely and your assumption is wrong also. Baby this...

[rekx]

Chip...I like your aussie avatar...I have a blue merle also.

I have always kind of thought that the distressed look is intended to resemble Big Mon's Loar - now that was a distressed mandolin.

Or maybe, the artificially distressed mando is not intended to look like Big Mon's, but instead give people the impression that one has had the same "relationship" that Big Mon had with his mando...if you catch my drift...:;):

[JEStanek]

Chip,
Here is a photo from Mike Marshall's website that shows the finger rest rub through to wood on the cello and how scuffed to wood his Loar (I believe) is...
http://www.mikemarshall.net/galleries/images/photos/tm_13.jpg

There is another photo of Mike's mando

here. (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.metroactive.com/metro-santa-cruz/01.04.06/gifs/mandolin-0601.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.metroactive.com/metro-santa-cruz/01.04.06/mandolin-0601.html&h=300&w=225&sz=10&hl=en&start=96&um=1&tbnid=Jfgie7F5U7TkTM:&tbnh=116&tbnw=87&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dthile%2Bmandolin%26start%3D80%26ndsp% 3D20%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfi refox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DN)

http://www.cdroots.com/hm-statman1.jpg
Andy Statman's A2Z.

Perhaps a pre-distressed instrument relieves some anxiety over putting the inevitable marks on an instrument. Maybe the market for that kind of finishing is an aesthetic choice. I think there are plenty of players who mar up their instruments finish. Most of the time we don't see photos of that (or their fingertips!!)

Finally, lets not distress each other too much.
Jamie

edit: I think the skills to distress a new instrument to look authentically old take as much effort to lear as how to apply a proper new finish. Both are art forms and each has it's own challenges. Too much is worse than none at all.

[markishandsome]

geez dude calm down...take a chill pill or something...you missed the point entirely and your assumption is wrong also. Baby this...

Good job bringing the discussion down to a third grade level. I was and remain calm in this thread. I know it's hard to see that via text over the web, but why not give me the benefit of the doubt and have a mature conversation instead of just insulting me?

Let me try again: you started this thread (in the picture posting forum for some reason) by noting that some makers's distressed instruments look way more beat up than most pickers. If that's your point, I got it. My (and several other posters's) point was that there are in fact a small number of folks who have beaten their mandos pretty hard over the years. Some of them are pretty famous and it shouldn't be surprising that there would be a market for beat up looking mandos for people who want to be like Bill.

Live and let live.

[Mario Proulx]

Here's another person's opinion...

Maybe we need to differentiate between "distressed" and "aged".

To me, distressed is that worn look, like with the DMM. To me, it looks like a poorly treated, yet not very old mandolin. Large-ish worn-through areas and deep scratches and gouges, yet the wood doesn't really look -that- old. I don't like the look(that is just a personal observation so don't flame me...)

Yet, to me, the aged look, like Hans and Gary do(and as we see in the above photos), looks very much like a well-cared for, old mandolin. I rather this look, as it appears much more genuine, and allows the player to add his/her own distressing naturally as it will be played through the years. The distressed ones with the already worn spots can look fake-ish, and in the passage of years, if the players' own wear patterns don't match the faked ones, it'll look terrible and even more fake, I suspect.

Carry-on!

[RichieK]

I own Gary's Monroe copy..and his work on it was just great. People can't believe it when I take it to a jam or a festival. The concept was not to make a distressed mandolin, but to honor the look of Bill's mandolin as it looked before he 'made up' with Gibson. I'd be happy to answer any questions about it.
Thanks,
Richie

[Jeff Hildreth]

In the 3rd post by testore.. what is the supposed age/period relicing of the mandolin in the photo ?

[testore]

it is RitchieK's copy of Big Mons mando that I made for him. One more

[Snakebeard Jackson]

Imagine how will it take before one of these distressed mandolins gets passed on to somebody else and they, after years of playing take it in to get refurbished. I don't know if I will see that day but I will laugh if I do. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Ken Olmstead]

Imagine how will it take before one of these distressed mandolins gets passed on to somebody else and they, after years of playing take it in to get refurbished. #I don't know if I will see that day but I will laugh if I do. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Wouldn't that be hilarious!! Some kid goes in with his recently inherited mandolin to have it "restored" in honor of his passed loved one. Never thought of that but I BET it happens one day!! #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[kudzugypsy]

my gigging mando, a 1995 Gibson F5-L has taken a real beating over the last 10 years, and it shows, i didnt try to distress it, but i didnt exactly take good cosmetic care of it, i should have now that i'm thinking about selling it because my gilchrist is gonna be ready in July. it just depends on your playing situation. i'm here in the humid south, we sweat all over them, they get cloudy finishes from being put up sweaty trying to get off the stage for the next band - all the time being in a hot car traveling - a gigging instrument is far different from one that is climate controled and only taken out of the house a few times a month. plus, when you are out on the *road* stuff gets bumped, scraped, etc.
its a good sounding mandolin from this hard life though, thats the interesting part - a well played broken in sound with a good feel like a great pair of cowboy boots

[mandocaster]

Frank Wakefield distressed his Loar a bit.

As I recall he baked it, stripped the fininish repeatedly and painted it with various colors of epoxy.

Grisman did a very interestin interview with him in an old Mandolin World News where he talked about it.

[TomTyrrell]

I'm sure there's a few guys who can pull it off on a mando
That would be the reason that seeing a label with Lloyd Loar's signature on it isn't the final step in authenticating a mandolin.

Making a mandolin look 80+ years old is an art. Making a mandolin look like it has been beat to death isn't quite so difficult.

[JEStanek]

kudzugypsy, would you post a photo so we can see authentic wear, please?

Jamie

[JeffD]

Among other things, my Dad was an excellent short order cook. One time I thought I would surprize him by cleaning his old cast iron skillets. I took a soapy brillo pad to them and made them shine. I was a kid, what did I know.

[luckylarue]

I think guys like Mike Marshall & Andy Statman (and many others) are about the music and expressing themselves and aren't too concerned about roughing up their instruments in the process. Imo, there's far too much emphasis on the instrument than the music on this site. I quit worrying about my mando's cosmetic look a long time ago. Now, it's a tool to get me where I want to go musically and try to express my somewhat limited vocabulary. Not being overly concerned about scratches & dents has kind of freed me up to focus more on the music.

That said, my next mando - a Hilburn, will definitely be sporting a pick guard for damage control purposes!

[red7flag]

I remember when Chris Stanley saw some of the nicks and bumps on the top of my Stanley F5. His face lit up. He told me is was good to see that I was playing it and that he was looking forward to seeing it in a couple of years. To him, an instrument with bumps and bruises adds to the mojo and character of the instrument. With two very large, very rambuntious dogs, and a very klutzy owner, my instruments are never short of character.
Tony

[Matt Bowe]

Way past collectible, but oh, the fun we've had...

[woodwizard]

Still looks good to me. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[jk245]

Remember the first new car you bought from a dealer. You went over every spot to make sure the finish was factory perfect. You bought the most expensive wax and polished it #until you had a mirror finish. Then one day you got your first major scratch and the novelty of perfect just disappeared; now you had #a DISTRESSED MODEL!
Your new mando will likely someday become your DISTRESSED MODEL.

[Rob Powell]

Sorry to be reviving an older thread but a recent experience has me looking at a distressed Weber.

I was having my typical MAS attack which is distressing in itself and went to play some Webers/Breedloves I had missed out playing previously.

This is a small store with a nicely humidified room for the good'uns. They had a nice selection of Webers from Gallatins to a Fern.

I played 3 Yellowstones, 2 Bitterroots, a Big Sky and the Fern. One of them had a cedar top but I can't remember which and there was a custom Blackface Vintage A with an oval hole. In fact, most of them were custom in some way and at least 3 of them had Red Spruce tops.

Now they all sounded slightly different. All very nice and one of the Bitterroots caught my ear. One of the Yellowstones was distressed and I wasn't even going to play it. As mentioned earlier here, the distressing looks similar on all of their distressed models that I've seen. But since I had played them all BUT the distressed one....

So I did. My testing consists of slaughtering some Nickel Creek tunes which take you all over the neck and my poorly played rendition of part of Wayfaring Stranger.

As I said they all sounded slightly different but the distressed Yellowstone sounded remarkably different. Indescribibly different.

Which brings me to my point: It became obvious to me that, at least in this case, Weber does something very different with the distressed models that has nothing to do with making it LOOK distressed.

Buying mandolins is distressful enough: To paraphrase Forrest Gump, a new mandolin is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're going to get until you open it up.

I've never played a Gibson Master Model distressed or otherwise and probably never will due to the price. I don't test drive Lamborghinis either. I tend not to tempt myself with things I can't afford and/or could never justify.

BUT I can tell you this: Weber does something very different with the distressed models beyond the finish. Sure, it was probably a much thinner finish than the others but there's no way that could account for the difference in sound. There's some magic or voodoo going on in those distressed models.

Sorry again for bringing this back up and for the long winded post but I think a Weber distressed model might be a MAS killer as well as a b@#!o killer.

Distressing the finish is one thing but matching the sound with the distressing is another thing entirely.

[Rob Powell]

As you can see from my sig...I bought the Distressed Yellowstone...what a tone!

I'll upload some pics later today and I hope I get a chance to record a little today to show what I mean.

Just for the record, my wife liked the tone of the Eastman 814 better but this bad boy is a bluegrass hoss!

[Mandobar]

i just got a used Collings MT2v in a trade. i have to say the gentleman who played it heavily for a year and some months in a bluegrass band did me a big favor. it's got some nicks and wear, but man, that sound is hard to replace.