Considering Octaves Mandolins....

[Jeffro]

Hi Everyone!
I am new here as of this morning. Please forgive the long intro, but.... I have been lurking and mining the treasure of tabs for a couple weeks now. I first started playing over 25 years ago. Had a cheap Harmony, then a Ventura (copy of the J. Burns Gibson), then I gave it up for the guitar when I was about 14 (1977). I picked up a late 40's Gibson (A-50?) a few years ago, but it still didn't take. Finally, I bought a wonderful Ratliff RA5 from the classifieds here a couple years ago. Got side-lined due to carpel tunnel shortly after that, but am now back w/a vengance.
More to the point: I have been playing w/a guy who plays primarily Celtic and Old-Time stuff on fiddle, mando, penny whistle and pipes. I am really getting into it now, especially the Celtic stuff, and have been pondering adding an OM to the mix. I know little about them, except to say I have done enough research to know I don't want a zook or mandola. Like the idea of already knowing the board, tuning, etc.
Now, I wanna get an OM w/the shortest possible scale, which it seems is gonna be 22-23 inches. And I want something of good quality (solid woods), but want to stay in the 800-1200 dollar range. The ones I seem to be gravitating towards (w/o no actual hands-on experience) are the MidMO M70 or M80 (w/some upgrades), the Petersen Level I Octave, and the Weber Sage #1 Octave. I am also concerned about which wood to pick. I am NOT a big maple fan for anything but mandos, but won't be playing the OM like I might the Ratliff (chop, chop), so is another wood choice perhaps better, say like rosewood for back and sides? Any tips would be greatly appreciated. Also, if anyone knows where I might find some used octaves that would fit the bill, that would be great too. I have checked the classifieds here already. Thanks a bunch.

JR

In the price range that you are looking you can get a Freshwater (http://www.frettedfolkinstruments.com/) and have some input into the features. #They've generally gotten good reviews here. #I think the current wait time is 4-5 months.

No financial interest but I have one on order that is expected to ship soon.

[jmkatcher]

I played the Weber Sage 1 this weekend and was greatly impressed by it. It was easy to play, even with the long scale, and sounded very rich and loud. I was even drowning out a guy plinking away on a banjo near me. If I don't buy a custom, I will buy one of these.

IHMO, stay away from the Johnson one. I played one of those too, and it was like my kid's Chinese $15 ukelele, only encrusted with abalone. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[otterly2k]

JR--I've been doing some similar searching lately. I have to echo the sentiments about Freshwater instruments. I have a 10 year-old 'zouk (bought used last year) from Freshwater that has TERRIFIC sound. It is solidly built and the luthier is extraordinarily nice and helpful (called me from Scotland on his own dime for an instrument I didn't even buy from HIM!) If you do a search on these message boards, I think you'll see a lot of happy recommendations for Freshwater.

Also, I think I've seen a few OM's described with scale lengths as low as 20"... at the moment I don't remember which... but if you are going with a custom built instrument, it's worth asking the luthier... it seems that many are willing to work with the customer on scale length, neck width, woods, and other features.

KE

[Jim Roberts]

Ward Elliott is going to build me a 20.5" scale octave but it's going to be a bit before I take delivery. #Can't wait!!!

Cheers!

[BluegrassPhilfromFrance]

I'm actually having an octave built by Hervé Coufleau, a french luthier (his website is in the builders section)and I'm supposed to choose the scale length with him. Since it goes from 20" to 25",we will be experimenting different length with the help of a guitar neck. I'll keep you informed about the results. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[Michael Wolf]

The scale length is a question of tone and handsize or the effort you are willing to make, finding out the fingerings on a longer scale and getting used to the stretches, in my opinion.
It's not a big problem to have a 20" scale for octave-tuning but you'll not have the tone of the 23".
I play the 23" though the shorter one would have been much more comfortable for me. But I found out, that after a time some tunes, that seemed to be nearly unplayable on the long scale at first, began to work, because I can do better stretches now. Very good exercise and great sound with the longer strings, especially for celtic. One extra advantage that I see, if you are able to handle the 23"-scale, is, that this scale is an old standard (tenorbanjo, classic om-makers like Sobell....), so you'll have a wider range of instruments to choose from and better possibilities to get a backup-instrument, if needed.

Cheers
Michael

[Jonathan James]

I got a Trinity College octave online to mess around with and I was pretty impressed with the sound, workmanship, etc. ANd, it was under $500 with a hardshell case.

[Ken Sager]

For your price range I'd look seriously at a used Flatiron OM/Zouk. The Koa backed ones are the richest sounding, and they're louder and fuller than any Weber or Mid-Mo OM I've played. The Flatiron has a 23.5 in scale. I have a maple backed Flatiron that booms. I actually tuned it down to play in F. I use a capo on 2nd fret to play in standard tuning. That is legal on an OM, right? It makes it even easier to play that way, and still sounds terrific. I also picked it up for less than your price range, too.

I bought the Flatiron because I'm waiting for an Old Wave guitar shaped OM with 21.5 inch scale that Bill Bussman is building for me. I couldn't wait until July/Aug when it should be finished.

Best,
Ken

[Steph]

The other thing I would consider is how "hard" you like to play. I have a short (around 20") scale Sobell 10 stringer that I tune GDAEA - it's fine for me - I prefer thin picks and don't play with "heavy hands" - the tone is warm and subtle. However if you are at the other end of the spectrum or are competing unamplified with other instruments, you might want to go for the longer scale. In the end it will come down to preferred tuning, scale length/string guage/tension and how you see your playing situation - band/accompaniment solo/medoly. Enjoy your search.

[steve V. johnson]

I'd add Davy Stuart in New Zealand to your search. He makes several
models of 20" octave mandolin, and they appear to be splendid quality.

I too hate the Johnsons, I had one and it is insultingly made, tho some
folks here have had a pretty good time with them.

There are other 20-22" OMs around, mostly from European makers, and that
Davy Stuart (whose prices are very nice, too!).

I hope this helps,

stv

[steve V. johnson]

Woops, sorry, I left out Davy Stuart's URL

www.stuart.co.nz

I have a Phil Crump bouzouki, 25.4", but he also makes a 22+" model.
I'm crazy mad nuts about my Crump B-II.

www.pwcrumpco.com

steveV

Another cafe member - Luthier I think - makes a kit for you to build an octave. #I think he will also assemble it for you for a fee. #The kit got good reviews in a recent thread.

[wannabethile]

i played the weber sage 1 this weekend too, and i hafta say it would be well worth the money. i dont know how im gonna be able to live without it now, haha. it was an amazing instrument.

[neal]

I just put up my Freshwater today in the classifieds. Yes, shameless plug. I WANT A GIBSON A-JR!!!

[Jeffro]

Thanks to everyone for their input. I am leaning towards the Weber Sage #1 for the moment. I really like Mid-MO M80 (and the company's attitude...I talked to the owner the other day,and he said he had one I could try at the shoppe if I wanted to drive out to Columbia, MO), but the upgrades I am interested in are going to jack the price up to near the Weber anyway. I considered the other brand suggestions too, went to the web sites, but found something that was not appealing (to me)in each case, whether it was cost, appearance, or wait. Anyway, to get an idea of the scale, a pickin' buddy brought over an irish tenor banjo the other night, and I tried playin' it for a while. It's definitely gonna be an adjustment. Thanks again. I will repost when I get this dilemma resolved! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

JR

[ira]

www.kennaquhair.com
doug dieter will make any scale length you wish. check it out.

[jmcgann]

http://www.johnmcgann.com/OM.html

I have some opinions on this page...

[otterly2k]

I've been looking at the instruments of Lawrence Nyberg who is in British Columbia, Canada....and have had some correspondence with him. His instruments are worth a look...
KE

[Mandobar]

i played a trillium and a fylde over the weekend. (i have a weber sage 1 and now a sobell zouk). the sobell, although quite $$$ is the best sounding of the bunch.

[otterly2k]

Mandobar, how expensive was the Sobell? What did you think of the Trillium? (I've been considering one of these)...
and where did you go to play these? It's so hard to buy instruments without putting hands to them, but with the exception of the more commercial brands, they are very hard to find to play...
KE

[craigtoo]

Another vote for Davy Stuart...Professional instruments....Amateur prices... Great guy..

There's always Stephen Owsley Smith...If you have the time and the money...The holy Grail of Octaves... IMHO..

check out these pics..

www.celticmusic.com/steve

craig

[Mandobar]

craig,

steve owsley smith is not taking any orders at this time. #


otterly,

the sobell was used and i bought it from a friend. #the new price is over $4k with a wait of at least a year. #

the trillium and the fylde are at acoustic outfitters in stratham, nh. #the trillium was an early one (1994). #bob abrahms is a friend of the owner and lives fairly close by.

there is a stuart at 12fret.com used for under $1k!!!

[otterly2k]

thanks, I'll check out the stuart.
mandobar-- what did you think of the Trillium? I love the look of them, and have seen/heard them well-reviewed by people who ought to know.

anyone have any experience with Lawrence Nyberg's instruments? he's at www.guitarmaker.ca

KE

[jmkatcher]

The Nyberg instruments are beautiful, especially the Harlequin variants. Thanks for the pointer.

I actually have something similar to his "bazar" on order as a custom from Phil Crump. OOO guitar body with a 24" octave neck.

[otterly2k]

btw- the Stuart on 12fret.com is a bouzouki (long scale)... not a shorter scale instrument that I am looking for...

somebody should snatch it up, tho. It does seem like a mighty good deal.
KE

[Mandobar]

otterly,

i thought you were buying that trillium? did the deal fall through?

[otterly2k]

Re: the Trillium...I'm waiting to hear back from Mike. Apparently, I was 3rd in line to express interest. He said he is dealing with folks in order, so I'm waiting to hear if I will have the opportunity to buy the Trillium.

Meanwhile, I'm investigating other instruments in case it doesn't work out. I'm very interested in Lawrence Nyberg's instruments, and have had some nice correspondence with him. check out his website- beautiful instruments, both flattops and carved...MP3s of his instruments sound very good indeed.

Of course am also looking into Spira, Crump, Stuart, Darnton, Freshwater, Kennaquhair. The Sobells are just out of my league price-wise.

It is hard to compare without being able to play them. Aesthetically, I think the Trillium is my favorite, and clearly comes well recommended. But if that doesn't work out, I'm liking the idea of having an instrument made for me by one of these talented luthiers. My 40th b-day is coming up... I deserve to give myself something nice...

KE

[Mandobar]

the trillium at acoustic outfitters is still there last i looked.

www.aomusicshop.com

nice folks. i believe it is on consignment.

[otterly2k]

Thanks Mandobar,
I checked it out. It's a 10 year-old instrument, and I'm waiting for some info from them re: condition. 10 years could mean AWESOME older-instrument tone (which I really like, as compared to bright and new) and/or could mean fret wear, neck issues, etc.

Most sellers of instruments of this level will let you evaluate and return if you want. Given what they're asking for the instrument, I might do just as well to commission a new one to my specs. Then I'd have the relatioship with the luthier and something perfect and new...

but of course, I'd lose the instant gratification factor...

oy, such choices!
KE

[Mandobar]

karen,

will kimble is selling a davy stuart octave mandolin! check the classifieds!

-m

[otterly2k]

thanks, mandobar, checking it out.

[Bob DeVellis]

When I got my Trillium, the wait was less than 6 months -- not instant gratification, but lots less than most custom-ordered instruments. You might drop Bob a note to see how long the wait currently is.

[Jeffro]

OK, I am back. I haven't pulled the trigger on anything yet. Haven't actually had the chance to play an instrument. Gonna have to travel far or just order one on approval, I guess. I have not had good luck w/custom-ordered instruments in the past (guitar), so for right now, I am not considering it. I do have a question though, sort of:
Can anyone give me their thoughts on F-holes vs. round sound-holes for these instruments? I have a friend who has a Flatiron mando (1980s round-hole, flat-top) that is very loud, and has sound characteristics quite different from my RA5, F-hole (much warmer to my ear). Will the differences be similar for OMs w/different sound holes? I am looking at a Weber Sage #2 vs. Weber Askabora (sp?) OM. The Sage 2 has a 23.5 in.scale/round sound-hole and the other is 22 in./w/F-holes. Is the round-hole better for Celtic stuff, as my friend believes is true for mandos? My wife has given me the OK to spend what I need to...within reason (reason being <2000, so I am kinda chompin' at the bit! :)Thanks.

JR

[Jeffro]

Well, I got to play 2 OMs over the weekend and was unimpressed w/either. The first was a Weber Sage #2. Intolerable scale length (23.5 in.)for me, though tuning to GDAD helped. Still, to tell ya the truth, I was expecting a more..."pleasing" tone. Not bad, just nothing special. Next I played a Trinity College OM. Sure, it didn't sound as good to my ear as the Weber, but the scale was at least playable...20 3/8". Guess I am gonna have to go the custom route or forget it, and take what comes in terms of sound. From the info I have gathered here I believe I am going to talk to someone at both kennequhair (sp?), and Mid-MO. At least they are both w/in a few hours driving distance from me. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

JR

[Ken Sager]

I'm telling you, Flatiron is the way to go. If you want to spend a little more money here is what Bill Bussman can do for you... He just emailed these today. I should have it soon...

[Ken Sager]

Here's the back...

[jmkatcher]

That tortoise binding is especially nice...

[Ken Sager]

I'm thinking the wood is especially nice. Bill strung it up before varnishing and played it in a message he left on my answering machine. It sounded big and warm (for an answering machine quality recording), and Bill said it's got a big complex tone.

Savoring the wait,
Ken

[nickdanger59]

I Have Two of Nybergs instruments. The Quality is stellar. He is also a pleasure to work with and there is never a problem with follow up. I would highly recomend him.

[otterly2k]

For those following the saga...I now have Mike's Trillium in my care to try out for a week or so. At 22.5" scale, I'm going to have to decide if I really need a shorter scale, or if I'm willing to work at improving my stretch and strength.

But let me say of this instrument that it is elegant and beautifully made. The attention to detail is very clear. It has an induced arch top, which gives the tone very nice "body"... has a much less stringy sound than my Freshwater 'zouk... really blows it out of the water, tone-wise. The sustain is quite long, and the neck relatively narrow, the action is pretty light. I'm going to play a little bit with string gauges... will comment more as I get to know it better (it just arrived yesterday).

Meanwhile, Nick, I'd love to hear more about your Nybergs...you're the first person I've seen on the boards who knows/has a Nyberg...

KE

[steve V. johnson]

I Have Two of Nybergs instruments. The Quality is stellar. He is also a pleasure to work with and there is never a problem with follow up. I would highly recomend him.
[QUOTE]

Hey!! What are your Nybergs like? Carved tops?

Please tell us more?

Thanks,

steveV