Hip hop

[lgc]

Why do so many people on this board trash rap and hip hop? It seems really silly and ignorant that a music community with almost not cultural connection to hip hop and rap would feel ok about debasing that artistic perspective. I can understand not liking it, because I don't like it, but I take that as my own lack of understanding. It seems to be a recurring theme in various posts and I guess I just wonder why people get off on bashing another musical culture.

[Daniel Wheeler]

If I remember correctly which I probably don't, the bashing was of the "gangsta" rap which I find quite shallow. Or at least that's what I referenced. But that was the only aspect I would bash. I don't know what specifically you mean tho. Just ignore my rambling. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[first string]

I guess as with any group, we have our share of curmudgeons...And on the whole I tend to agree with you. That said, I don't think anyone means any harm by it. I find myself getting more than a little irascible if I'm forced to endure too much metal, post punk/noise music, or rap. It's not that they're not legitimate musical forms (music is always fundamentally a matter of taste. I just don't care for them, and tend to find them grating and offensive to my particular set of ears.

[Jim Broyles]

Well, I've been reading and posting on this forum for over two years and I have not noticed a recurrent bashing of rap and hip hop. I have seen posts in which the genre is listed as the only music the poster doesn't like, which could describe me, but recurrent bashing, no. This is, after all, a mandolin forum, and I think you can count on zero fingers the number of mandolin driven hip hop songs. This may account for the lack of enthusiasm for the genre. As for "gangsta" rap, there is no artistic nor any redeeming social quality to the genre at all.

[first string]

If I remember correctly which I probably don't, the bashing was of the "gangsta" rap which I find quite shallow. Or at least that's what I referenced. But that was the only aspect I would bash. I don't know what specifically you mean tho. Just ignore my rambling. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
There is an interesting point to be made here. A lot of rap contains sentiments that I think people find offensive on an ethical level. And certainly, I have heard a lot of lyrics in that genre that I find troubling. But at the same time I think those criticisms can be all too easily overblown. Certainly bluegrass, old time, and (real) country, contain many stories that could just as easily be seen as promoting violence, misogyny, and criminality. So I think it would help if we all try to put things in perspective, and remember that just because we don't care for something, doesn't mean it isn't a legitimate art form.

[swampy]

I have to agree with Daniel on this one. I have heard some amazing hip hop and rap music, unfortunately, none of it was on the radio. Much like bluegrass, old-time and other smaller genres, the most pervasive and well known artists aren't (in my opinion) the best representatives of the genre. Saying that 50 cent or Snoop Dog represents hip-hop and rap is much like saying Britney Spears or Marilyn Manson speak for all of rock and pop music.

I have my own opinions regarding who carries the torch for bluegrass, but I'll keep those to myself, because I know how strong opinions on this board can be in this regard. Let's just say that I know lot of people that say they love bluegrass, and when they start to name their favorite bands, I cringe a little. Not because I don't respect the groups, but more because I feel they are too far removed to represent the genre.

I like country music, but you sure wouldn't find me listening to country radio. No Willie, No Hank, No Gillian Welch, No Townes Van Zant, No thank you!

Sorry to deviate from your point, but I think its all related.

[Steve L]

Why do so many people on this board trash rap and hip hop? #It seems really silly and ignorant that a music community with almost not cultural connection to hip hop and rap would feel ok about debasing that artistic perspective. #I can understand not liking it, because I don't like it, but I take that as my own lack of understanding. #It seems to be a recurring theme in various posts and I guess I just wonder why people get off on bashing another musical culture.
What do you suppose rap and hip hop musicians say about us?

[Snakebeard Jackson]

I teach high school and the kids who by and large listen to hip hop, call mandolin music hillbilly music. "What are you listening too? Are you a redneck or something?" They say

[steadypluckinaway]

Before this thread gets to lockdown, I'd like to offer that perhaps the "us and them" is a little unfair. Maybe it's just the fact that I am a young and fairly open-minded person, but I think that music can be called wonderful no matter what anyone thinks of it, as long as it satisfies someone. I have heard lots of rap (grew up in the early 90's) that has put a smile on my face. Likewise, lots of other types of music. If we brand a type of music "bad" just because we don't like or don't agree with the lyrics or cannot associate with the demographic, that is bordering on fear-based ignorance. Culturally, musicians of African descent in this country have been severely disillusioned and stripped of their identity over the last couple hundred years and if it weren't for acceptance of blues and jazz, you'd have a terribly bland musical landscape. Hip-hop and rap are a legitimate form of expression whether you like the lyrics or not. My parents listened to folks like "Herman's Hermits" and "Linda Ronstadt". I'd rather be chained to a chair with Busta Rhymes. Oh and I love mandolin music too.

[Chris Biorkman]

Well, I've never heard of anyone trashing hip hop on this board, but as long as you are bringing it up... I don't think it's very difficult to understand why songs about drug dealing, promiscuity, the size of your rims, and shooting people might not be the favorite of anyone with half a brain in their head. Any yes, I know that not all hip hop is based on that subject matter, but I have heard quite a bit of it (used to listen to it some in college) and I have heard enough on the radio to know that all of those things are very popular themes. If hop hop and rap artists want the respect of other musical genres, they need to get their craft out of the gutter.

[Keith Erickson]

I'll tell you what bothers me about the hip hop scene...

Regardless of your opinions on the subject, I think it's absolutely appalling that the violence and killings have taken so many young lives because of the "music". #What a tragedy!!! #Let's kill someone over East coast vs. west coast.

Okay...so you want to make a song that glorifies killing? #Be my guest..... #Nobody says you have to act out because a song tells you to do so.

Now the shame of it is that this type of mentality is now infiltrating the norteña scene down in Mexico. #Drug dealers and drug gangs are now killing musicians. #However if you listen to the lyrics of some of those songs, many of those lyrics of these songs spell out specific crimes that have taken place. #Someone could take this as someone talking too much and they need to be "shutup".

...but for years, bands like Los Tucanas de Tijuana and Los Trigres del Norte sung about the exploits of the drug dealers and the masses loved to hear about them.

My hope for the future is that the mandolin world steers clear of this violence.

[Jim Broyles]

Well from an apparently old and narrow-minded person, I would not want to be exiled to Siberia with only two albums, being Herman's Hermits' and Linda Ronstadt's Greatest Hits, but if the choice were among those and Busta Rhymes, I'll take Herman and Linda.

[Michael H Geimer]

I've read comment here and elsewhere to the effect of "that ain't no part of nuthin". Whatever, that's clearly just someone's opinion. Hip Hop has a lot going for it, but it tends to associate itself with some shady characters.


As for "gangsta" rap, there is no artistic nor any redeeming social quality to the genre at all.


I have to agree with that. I lived across the street from a genuine crack-house. The dealer of that house spent his money on recording equipment. His obituary described him as a struggling Hip Hop artist, caught up in random gang violence. Random as a sunrise. They guy's widow continued to deal for years afterwards (I recently heard they have finally been evicted).

This music ain't some Kumbaya camp-out folks. Say what you want about Bluegrass murder ballads, but there is a stark difference in the reality (and no, I don't sing murder ballads, but my wife loves 'em ... so I am an accomplice of sorts).

I have trouble enjoying any entertainment that glamorizes drugs, violence, death. Quentin Tarantino movies are no different to me than any gansta rap.

Eeeeeech! Now I'm all creeped out thinking about Life in Hell. I'm gonna go work in the garden and soak up some sunshine.

[Daniel Wheeler]

If I remember correctly which I probably don't, the bashing was of the "gangsta" rap which I find quite shallow. Or at least that's what I referenced. But that was the only aspect I would bash. I don't know what specifically you mean tho. Just ignore my rambling. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
There is an interesting point to be made here. A lot of rap contains sentiments that I think people find offensive on an ethical level. And certainly, I have heard a lot of lyrics in that genre that I find troubling. But at the same time I think those criticisms can be all too easily overblown. Certainly bluegrass, old time, and (real) country, contain many stories that could just as easily be seen as promoting violence, misogyny, and criminality. So I think it would help if we all try to put things in perspective, and remember that just because we don't care for something, doesn't mean it isn't a legitimate art form.
I guess I wasn't clear. I am not talking about the gangsta rap lyrics in general. I am referring to my lack of wanting to hear the n word and f bombs a hundred times and then talking about their hos and how hood they are and pimpin and such etc etc.

[steve V. johnson]

When I started actually working at recording music, with a job in a studio, I was amazed at all the different kinds of music that came in. And becuase I grew up in a tiny town in the Illinois cornfields, even tho I thought I was open-minded, the things that folks wrote, sang and played about really opened my eyes (and ears).

Some of the most fun and best learning I've ever experienced came from working with people with whom I -thought- I had
nothing in common. I've worked with folks from chamber music to Andean folk, from hip-hop to bluegrass, and it's been
humbling all along, a great gift and privelege.

You can never know when someone will come along with a completely different world view and skill set who can inspire you and
set new standards for your own art and how you do it.

Folks who bash musics that are unfamiliar to them are merely expressing their ignorance, and in many cases, those expressions come from some sort of fear. The illusion of "us & them" is a powerful thing, but an illusion nonetheless.

Folks make music for all the same reasons, really, and 'under the skin' a whole lot of the -intent- of the music is the
same, and the content comes from folks' lives.

Conversely, in every genre of music there are folks who do it simply from ego, or from some cynical notion of 'doing business'...
and those are the folks who reduce music to work and the least common denominators of form and content. Some folks will
always fall for that stuff, but I think most of the folks here on the Cafe know much better, and can tell when an artist, a player,
is genuine.

There's too much good stuff out there to have fun with, and to share. Bashing anybody's music is a true waste of time and effort.

My $.02.

stv

[chip]

I think the problem with HipHop, Rap, or whatever you want to call it is:

A: 99% of the people involved don't play a music instrument, nor sing...so what is it?

B: Most of it is just plain repeticious.

C: Sampling seems to be the norm.

D: Sounds like 3rd grade Jack and Jill went up the hill #type of rhymes with a back beat.

E: Very few of the songs have any longevity down the road.

Having said that I do acknowledge that it is an art form but where it should be categorized is up for discussion. I would opt for poetry/literary aspect more than a music forum. Just my .02 http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

[bienkow1]

I happen to enjoy hip hop a lot.. I think alot of it is intelligent, poetic music. However, the point has been made on this thread a few times, the rap you hear on the radio to me is garbage. But personally, I think most music on the radio is garbage, regardless of genre. If I was only exposed to country that is on the radio, I would have an extremely negative opinion of it...but most of us have dug deeper and found many artists/bands within the genre that are great. I just think that if your on a forum devoted to an instrument primarily used in BG, classical, old time, celtic, etc., you're not going to find alot of folks that have dove into the hip hop genre seeking out respectable artists.

[Kevin Briggs]

I also have not noticed people trashing rap and/or hip-hop on here, outside of saying it's not a person's favorite type of music.

I teach at an ethnically diverse inner-city public school where rap and hip-hop are the dominant forms of popular music. I have have grown in leaps and bounds over my six years here, in regards to my view on cultures different than my own. I began my job very idealistic, but very ignorant as to what is going on in the lives of the students in the schol in which I work.

First, the poor, ethnically diverse population of kids are just that... kids. They have experiences I could not have imagined when I was their age. There are a multitude of factors affecting our kids in the cities, many of which are impossible for kids outside of the cities to understand. Obviously, the same can be said about the city kids not understanding the suburbs and what not.

Hip-hop andRap are forms of music that have progressed form the struggles of these people. If you've ever seen Freedom Writers, or "Menace to Society," or "Boyz in the Hood," you can understand why the music is deranged, from an oustiders perspective. I agree that it's really violent and is ofetn ethically and morally reprehensible, but it originated from those kinds of lives. Unfortunately, it is heavily marketed today and less genuine, but it started as real as it gets.

[SGraham]

[Quote]"Why do so many people on this board trash rap and hip hop? It seems really silly and ignorant..."

I think the OP is indulging in a bit of trolling here. Notice he hasn't responded? Just kind of dropped a judgmental blanket statement and sat back and watched everyone run around.

Sigh.

Steve

[MikeEdgerton]

I think the OP is indulging in a bit of trolling here. Notice he hasn't responded? Just kind of dropped a judgmental blanket statement and sat back and watched everyone run around.
Already noted.

[sgarrity]

Speaking of hip hop.......have you seen the Vitamin Water commercial where 50 Cent is standing in as the conductor of a symphony? They start off with something classical and then wind up playing on of his songs, "In Da Club." That's funny stuff....
50 Cent Commercial (http://youtube.com/watch?v=xL66GbBbPvc)

[steadypluckinaway]

I'd also like to say that most African music and some Indian music sounds foreign to our ears as Westerners. Whether you play an instrument or manipulate a turntable it's all music. The violence and unhealthy immoral lyrical content are not in dispute; some of the songs are offensive and promote terrible things. You can't put it all in the same box. If we did that, rock and roll would be in trouble, as there is some genuine junk out there. Now that we've brought it up, is there any mando-hip-hop out there?

Side note-has anyone seen the movie "Idlewild"? I've met Andre from Outkast and he's a very good guitarist. I think we'll see few mando rappers but it is an interesting thought. Thank goodness we can all have our own opinions as I'm sure there are about 12 of us who don't detest this sort of music. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[hoffmannia2k7]

hmm music about nothing but drinking, violence, and womanizing...

bluegrass, country, or hip hop take your pick

[Chris Biorkman]

Speaking of hip hop.......have you seen the Vitamin Water commercial where 50 Cent is standing in as the conductor of a symphony? #They start off with something classical and then wind up playing on of his songs, "In Da Club." #That's funny stuff....
50 Cent Commercial (http://youtube.com/watch?v=xL66GbBbPvc)
LOL!

[Ted Eschliman]

I think the OP is indulging in a bit of trolling here. Notice he hasn't responded? Just kind of dropped a judgmental blanket statement and sat back and watched everyone run around.
Already noted.
What Mike said. This sure gets old.

[mandroid]

I'd chime in that this is a market segment that the music industrial machine is cultivating now.

Write some lyrics that speak to current events , set it to a meter that makes you want to move around a bit, and see what happens .

thats the best we can do , sniping at other peoples work doesn't advance the community much..

[lgc]

"As for "gangsta" rap, there is no artistic nor any redeeming social quality to the genre at all.

I don't think it's very difficult to understand why songs about drug dealing, promiscuity, the size of your rims, and shooting people might not be the favorite of anyone with half a brain in their head.

If hop hop and rap artists want the respect of other musical genres, they need to get their craft out of the gutter.

Sounds like 3rd grade Jack and Jill went up the hill type of rhymes with a back beat."

These are my point exactly. I haven't responded because I posted in the morning and now I have my lunch break. Bluegrass used blacktop in its early days-direct approval of racism. Old Time drops the N bomb quite a bit-Earl Johnson and the first Opry star Uncle Dave. I've heard Sam bush reference drugs at almost every concert I've seen. The list of awful things in Jazz and Blues is endless and no less disturbing. Most of us just like how it sounds better. The themes aren't that different from the general body of BG/OT/country and hip hop. Gangsta rap is difficult to process from an outside perspective but it reflects the reality of many people' lives. Wouldn't it be weird if Snoop Dog put out music like Peter Paul and Mary.

If people really don't think Honky Tonk music has had less of an effect on sever alcoholism in white working class communities as rap has had on violence in urban communities then I think there is a disconnect.

On an artistic note. The Beatles were great. However it was their producer that made them the biggest pop group ever. Many of Hip hops top artists are amazing at sound manipulation in the studio. Music is the manipulation of sound, not just the manipulation of an instrument.

[first string]

If I remember correctly which I probably don't, the bashing was of the "gangsta" rap which I find quite shallow. Or at least that's what I referenced. But that was the only aspect I would bash. I don't know what specifically you mean tho. Just ignore my rambling. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
There is an interesting point to be made here. A lot of rap contains sentiments that I think people find offensive on an ethical level. And certainly, I have heard a lot of lyrics in that genre that I find troubling. But at the same time I think those criticisms can be all too easily overblown. Certainly bluegrass, old time, and (real) country, contain many stories that could just as easily be seen as promoting violence, misogyny, and criminality. So I think it would help if we all try to put things in perspective, and remember that just because we don't care for something, doesn't mean it isn't a legitimate art form.
I guess I wasn't clear. I am not talking about the gangsta rap lyrics in general. I am referring to my lack of wanting to hear the n word and f bombs a hundred times and then talking about their hos and how hood they are and pimpin and such etc etc.
I don't think I misunderstood you--though I could be wrong. In fact I largely agree with you. And it's definitely not what I would choose to listen to either. But I do try to look at things from other perspectives. I'm not terribly offended by the f bomb, but I do take issue with the word ho. As for the N word...Well of course it is highly offensive. But I also understand that it is pretty common for any group that has been oppressed or discriminated against to appropriate the terminology of their oppressor. It's a sort of linguistic way of defusing all the negatives that come from bigotry. I could name you a dozen similar examples. I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying that there are reasons why it happens.

All in all, my feeling is just that people should cut hip hop the same slack that they would for any other musical genres. Art can be offensive and still be art. Our ability to make it, and/or choose to listen to it or not, is a big part of what is great about our society.

Anyway Daniel, I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I was disputing or challenging you...I was just sort of spring boarding off of what you wrote.

[Jim Broyles]

To quote you exactly:
"If people really don't think Honky Tonk music has had less of an effect on sever alcoholism in white working class communities as rap has had on violence in urban communities then I think there is a disconnect. "


You are right. There has been less of an effect in the instance you site, and if any think there is more of an effect of alcoholism in white working class communities from honky tonk music, I think there is a disconnect. This entire line of reasoning is pointless because unless you have data to back up an assertion such as the one you intended to make, the argument is specious.

[Daniel Wheeler]

I live in houston. I honestly can't think of the last time I heard of an old time vs. Bluegrass gang war. And I'm a college student so believe me I'm not out of touch.

[first string]

To quote you exactly:
"If people really don't think Honky Tonk music has had less of an effect on sever alcoholism in white working class communities as rap has had on violence in urban communities then I think there is a disconnect. "


You are right. There has been less of an effect in the instance you site, and if any think there is more of an effect of alcoholism in white working class communities from honky tonk music, I think there is a disconnect. This entire line of reasoning is pointless because unless you have data to back up an assertion such as the one you intended to make, the argument is specious.
My feeling is that in both cases the behavior came before the music...Maybe the music is somewhat responsible for glorifying the behavior, but I am highly skeptical that many people were driven to anything by a song.

[fishdawg40]

I also have not noticed people trashing rap and/or hip-hop on here, outside of saying it's not a person's favorite type of music.

I teach at an ethnically diverse inner-city public school where rap and hip-hop are the dominant forms of popular music. I have have grown in leaps and bounds over my six years here, in regards to my view on cultures different than my own. I began my job very idealistic, but very ignorant as to what is going on in the lives of the students in the schol in which I work.

First, the poor, ethnically diverse population of kids are just that... kids. They have experiences I could not have imagined when I was their age. There are a multitude of factors affecting our kids in the cities, many of which are impossible for kids outside of the cities to understand. Obviously, the same can be said about the city kids not understanding the suburbs and what not.

Hip-hop andRap are forms of music that have progressed form the struggles of these people. If you've ever seen Freedom Writers, or "Menace to Society," or "Boyz in the Hood," you can understand why the music is deranged, from an oustiders perspective. I agree that it's really violent and is ofetn ethically and morally reprehensible, but it originated from those kinds of lives. Unfortunately, it is heavily marketed today and less genuine, but it started as real as it gets.
Well said.

[Daniel Wheeler]

If I remember correctly which I probably don't, the bashing was of the "gangsta" rap which I find quite shallow. Or at least that's what I referenced. But that was the only aspect I would bash. I don't know what specifically you mean tho. Just ignore my rambling. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
There is an interesting point to be made here. A lot of rap contains sentiments that I think people find offensive on an ethical level. And certainly, I have heard a lot of lyrics in that genre that I find troubling. But at the same time I think those criticisms can be all too easily overblown. Certainly bluegrass, old time, and (real) country, contain many stories that could just as easily be seen as promoting violence, misogyny, and criminality. So I think it would help if we all try to put things in perspective, and remember that just because we don't care for something, doesn't mean it isn't a legitimate art form.
I guess I wasn't clear. I am not talking about the gangsta rap lyrics in general. I am referring to my lack of wanting to hear the n word and f bombs a hundred times and then talking about their hos and how hood they are and pimpin and such etc etc.
I don't think I misunderstood you--though I could be wrong. In fact I largely agree with you. And it's definitely not what I would choose to listen to either. But I do try to look at things from other perspectives. I'm not terribly offended by the f bomb, but I do take issue with the word ho. As for the N word...Well of course it is highly offensive. But I also understand that it is pretty common for any group that has been oppressed or discriminated against to appropriate the terminology of their oppressor. It's a sort of linguistic way of defusing all the negatives that come from bigotry. I could name you a dozen similar examples. I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying that there are reasons why it happens.

All in all, my feeling is just that people should cut hip hop the same slack that they would for any other musical genres. Art can be offensive and still be art. Our ability to make it, and/or choose to listen to it or not, is a big part of what is great about our society.

Anyway Daniel, I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I was disputing or challenging you...I was just sort of spring boarding off of what you wrote.
Ha no I don't take offense to anything on a message board. I like some rap. The mainsteam stuff not so much but one of my best friends exposed me to some of the better stuff and I really found it quite deep. I just really don't like most of the mainstream anything. There are exceptions, but not many.

Ya anyway no believe me I take no offense to any message board comments or pretty much anything for that matter. Nice and laid back. That's the way I like it.

[Kevin Briggs]

I live in houston. I honestly can't think of the last time I heard of an old time vs. Bluegrass gang war. And I'm a college student so believe me I'm not out of touch.
It's a true statement. There's no doubt.

I think it's tough to make a comparison based on that line of thinking, though. If we want to face reality, we have to admit that gang fights and a whole bunch of things are supported and represented in Hip-Hop. That's the lives of those people though, for whatever reason. It's glorified from a marketing angle, and it sells a lot of merchandise, but the turht is that there are millions of people living lives that they would classify as "tough," and they deserve to express themselves in a way that helps them cope.

Gangbangers and drug dealers and what not are a very small percentage of people represented by Hip-Hop music. They just get the most attention, because everyone loves drama.

[mandocrucian]

Might as well go full-blown Coffee Talk with Linda Richman

"So talk among yourselves......I'll give you a topic:
Hip-hop gansta rap or it's caucasian doppelgangeror (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=white+power+music&btnG=Google+Search)? Which is more offensive? Discuss. "

http://hankandwillie.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/snl190.jpg

[TomTyrrell]

1. Bluegrass never used blacktop. The minstrel shows were history before bluegrass came along.

2. There is no African music that sounds anything at all like hip-hop or rap.

3. My personal dislike of any kind of music is not a shortcoming on my part. It is a personal preference. All this "you don't understand the music" stuff just doesn't work.

4. Go check out what B.B. King said about rap. Is he a racist?

[Daniel Wheeler]

I live in houston. I honestly can't think of the last time I heard of an old time vs. Bluegrass gang war. And I'm a college student so believe me I'm not out of touch.
It's a true statement. There's no doubt.

I think it's tough to make a comparison based on that line of thinking, though. If we want to face reality, we have to admit that gang fights and a whole bunch of things are supported and represented in Hip-Hop. That's the lives of those people though, for whatever reason. It's glorified from a marketing angle, and it sells a lot of merchandise, but the turht is that there are millions of people living lives that they would classify as "tough," and they deserve to express themselves in a way that helps them cope.

Gangbangers and drug dealers and what not are a very small percentage of people represented by Hip-Hop music. They just get the most attention, because everyone loves drama.
I was being mildy dramatic. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[BlueMountain]

Apart from the fact that I don't recall any trashing of rap or hip hop on this site before you started this thread . . .

1. Most of the people on this site devote many hours to learning to play musical instruments, and we believe in supporting people who play musical instruments, whether live or recorded (particularly mandolins, which are pretty much ignored by rappers), so we tend to feel threatened (and rightly so) by a form of "music" that includes no live playing of instruments. Think of all the musicians who are out of work because of rap and hip hop, particularly in the African-American community.

2. We tend to prefer acoustic music, and we treasure instrumental virtuousity. We tend to like singing, whether it's good singing or bad singing. We tend to feel nostalgic about country folks, hillbillies, the Great Depression, bluegrass festivals in pastures, musicians crowded around microphones, humble people who don't boast about their abilities and can't afford jewelry. We may not be farmers or miners, but songs about them move us. We tend to be terrified of "the contemporary urban black experience," even though we may love old blues and jazz records. So we are not likely to take naturally to rap and hip hop.

3. We tend to think our music is important, but we secretly know that hardly anyone listens to it, so why should we devote our hours to a sort of music that most people listen to? We're trying to preserve a seriously "marginalized" minority musical form, rather than making various stars richer.

4. The greatest of all rap songs is "Subterranean Homesick Blues" (and I like Tim O'Brien's version as much as Dylan's).

[kestrel]

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sleepy.gif

[MikeEdgerton]

I just spent almost 40 minutes looking through threads for rap or hip hop bashing. I can honestly say it must not be real prevalent as it's almost impossible to find. With that said, unless someone can provide 10 or 15 examples in the past threads we can simply call this what it appears to be.

[Mike Bunting]

About 15 years ago my eldest daughter turned me on to The Disposable Heros of Hiphopcracy, a hiphop crew led by Michael Franti. Good socially conscious stuff such as "TV Is the Opium of the Masses". Dizzy Gillespie, who I heard with John Faddis doing hiphop stuff, said that rap was no different than the bop he was working on 60 years ago. I'm not taliking about the stuff on the radio, anything on mainstream radio is lies and ####. By the way, I'm a hardcore Monroe style bluegrasser.
BTW, I figure that the kids in East L.A. wear their hats backward, just to make the white kids in the suburbs up here in Edmonton look stupid.

[Daniel Wheeler]

I can remember 1.
But I do have a rather bad memory.

I call it what it appears to be.

[Kevin Briggs]

I just spent almost 40 minutes looking through threads for rap or hip hop bashing. I can honestly say it must not be real prevalent as it's almost impossible to find. With that said, unless someone can provide 10 or 15 examples in the past threads we can simply call this what it appears to be.
As Steve Zaben likes to say, "I'm so done with...."

[West]

Some people like some things. Other people like other things. And sometimes people like some of the same things.

[Chris Biorkman]

I just spent almost 40 minutes looking through threads for rap or hip hop bashing. I can honestly say it must not be real prevalent as it's almost impossible to find. With that said, unless someone can provide 10 or 15 examples in the past threads we can simply call this what it appears to be.
For realz, G. Trollz be straight trippin' up in dis' motha. Holla!

Also, hippity hop ain't no part o' nuthin'.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[JeffD]

1 - It seems really silly and ignorant that a music community with almost not cultural connection to hip hop and rap would feel ok about debasing that artistic perspective.

2 - I can understand not liking it, because I don't like it, but I take that as my own lack of understanding. #

3 - It seems to be a recurring theme in various posts and I guess I just wonder why people get off on bashing another musical culture.
I'll take your points one at a time.

Point 1 - I don't know that I don't have a cultural connection to hip hop and rap. I have much more of a cultural connection to rap and hip hop than I do to Indian music for example (there is a link to a cool video of some Indian mandolin, woo hoo.)

I hope that American culture contains all the strands that make it up, that I don't have to be blue to enjoy and understand the blues, and I don't have to be a gansta or a gang member to understand rap.

I don't have to speak Yiddish to enjoy and understand Klezmer. I love Celtic music, love it, really deep inside, and my ancestry is Polish and Russian.

I maintain that I have valid opinions about rap and hip hop because I have enough of cultural connection within in which to decide at least if I like it or not.

2 - I feel no obligation to like it, to try and like it, or to try and understand it more than I do. I don't think we need abandon our discerning just because we could understand something even more.

More importantly, I do not detect anything in rap or hip hop that indicates, even faintly, that I would enjoy it more if I understood it more. I think anyone over, I don't know pick a number, anyone over 25 has the right to decide what he or she is going to spend his or her limited time trying to understand. I cannot understand everything, so I concentrate on those things with the greatest pay back. And there are many things I want to understand, mixolydian modes, harmonies in a minor key, how to make love stay in my life, ... I have to tell ya hip hop and rap are way down the list of things I want to understand.

3 - I will have to take your word on this, I haven't seen it. I would just be carefull to distinguish between expressing an honest preference for or against a particular genre of music, and bashing another musical culture. They are not the same.

Here is a reason not to like it:

http://killfile.newsvine.com/_news....-is-bad (http://killfile.newsvine.com/_news/2008/02/18/1308768-71-of-blacks-agree-raps-societal-impact-is-bad)

[Keith Erickson]

They guy's widow continued to deal for years afterwards (I recently heard they have finally been evicted).
You know Michael,

I was thinking as I was reading your post that this guy was probably killed over territory. Territory that was just renting http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

Boy talking about wasting money as well as a life. So sad on so many different levels.

[bienkow1]

This thread is pointless. Everybody should be pickin' http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[CES]

Before the thread checks out, check out Hiphoppapotamous on You Tube (can search for Flight of the Conchords or simply google "Business Time" and then follow the additional videos to the right...sorry, not able to get a link up at present)...funny, funny stuff...

[lgc]

Here are two I found in 10 minustes.

I turn on the radio nowadays and hear these girl bands, fake country music stars, hip hop, and the worst so called "music" of the century "RAP" and I kringe

In referance to Rap
Please dont bring that simple minded, hateful, woman hating, urban white-kid wanting to be a gansta genra into this. Its IS what is wrong with music today.

[MikeEdgerton]

Two in ten minutes with no links to the threads. I don't see that as a trend. Please take this opportunity to read the posting guidelines. This really does appear to be trolling.

Posting guidelines (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST&f=23&t=13100)

[JEStanek]

In March 2006, Mandorose (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=12;t=33111;hl=funk+and+mand o) started a thread from a youtube clip of footage from a P'Funk concert where a mando solo was featured. Folks in that thread were pretty positive (it was a wild cool clip since removed, IMO). In other threads were people talk about music they like or are inspired by, occasionally someone will post about not liking rap (in varying strength of terms) then some folks reply about liking some rap. I often post saying Bluegrass isn't my favorite, I'm not bashing just expressing an opinion.

There are performers who have contributed to and detracted from the progress of culture and social understanding in all genres. Sometimes music is a mechanism to shed light on the ugliness of society too. Sometimes music is what it is and, it should just be left alone.

When someone who posts controversial and usually irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, with the intention of baiting other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion, that's trolling. Replying with a strong emotional response feeds the troll.

Jamie

[lgc]

OK,
Yall should lock it I guess. I will say that I would have found more but the search mechanism is not that efficient. I haven't seen other subject that had the same level or insensitivity. I just think there is the potential of alienating people from the mandolin which is not the intention of the forum. I think some things I've read in the past year have represented acoustic music fans poorly.

[Steve Ostrander]

Anybody heard The Gourds version of Gin and Juice? I like the music, but I could never sing it in public. And I've heard all those words before...

[Jonathan Peck]

Maybe a feature like the one pictured would be useful