Help dating l&h style b

[Jonathan Peck]

I could use some help dating this mandolin. The label reads "Made and guaranteed by Lyon & Healy worlds largest music house Chicago, USA No. 1149 Style B"

[mrmando]

That's a later one, probably early to mid-1920s.

Take off the tailpiece cover and see whether the tailpiece base has a patent date. Pre-1918 (I think) it should say "Pat. Pending" or words to that effect. After 1918 it'll say "Pat. 1918."

Beyond that, there isn't much information in the way of hard dates for these.

[Jonathan Peck]

The tailpiece reads PAT 4-15-19 and has a clamping mechanism.

[Jonathan Peck]

Alright, I think I've narrowed it down as close as I'm going to get. Based on the Patent date on the tailpiece and the label being before the change to the Washburn label, I think that this one was made somewhere between 1919-1923.

Thanks Mr Mando

[twaaang]

Jonathan, there was a fairly extensive thread on this 3-4 years ago when I asked the same question for my Style B. #Some of the respondents had things researched pretty thoroughly, with the limitation that production records all got lost in a fire. #There was much discussion about the patent-pending date stamped faintly in the pickguard; this is the first I've heard of a patent date on the tailpiece, which I'll have to check out tonight.

Very sweet instrument, mine is, getting a fair amount of Celtic session time these days, and I hope you enjoy yours as much. (Noticing your avatar, I'll add that my two points are symmetrically placed.) #-- #Paul

[mrmando]

Sorry, I was off by a year on the tailpiece patent date. I have a long-scale Style C and my luthier has a short-scale Style C. We were comparing them side by side and noticed that this is one way to help get a ballpark figure on a date.

Anyone know what year they started putting the little fold-out peg into the treble side of the Style A?

[MikeEdgerton]

Anyone know what year they started putting the little fold-out peg into the treble side of the Style A?

This Style B off frets.com (http://www.frets.com) just says it was made in the 20's. I've always loved that feature on these.

http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Museum/Mandolin/LyonHealy/LHB/LHBViews/lhb09.jpg

[Mike Buesseler]

What's that thing for, anyway, Mike? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[Jonathan Peck]

It's a leg rest, similar in function to a lap point on an 'F' style mandolin. If you are inclined to rest that little doohicky on your left leg and hold the mandolin away from your body with the neck at a 45 degree angle, it works very nicely.

[Michael Wolf]

Jonathan,

what kind of music do you play on the L&H? What do you like about it's sound? I'm curious about others experiences with these Mandolins because I like them and I've been offered one to buy. But I haven't played it yet.

Thanks

[Jonmiller]

I love the sound of Dave Appolon's on the early recordings ( I hope I'm correct that is what he played prior to Gibson Ferns). I can't recall seeing one for sale, I know they are not all that rare, is it just people don't give them up? They are certainly beautiful!!!!!

[Jonathan Peck]

what kind of music do you play on the L&H? What do you like about it's sound?
I bought the mandolin to play classical. It came with light gauge strings on it and I don't know if it can handle heavier strings, but it is very solidly made. I removed the PB strings and put on a set of Calace Dogal. The mandolin is amazingly clear and is not percussive like my 'F', but it is snappy and responds to the pick just like any other mandolin except it's all clear tone w/o that percussive thud. The mandolin is bright, but also has good bass response. I think that it would be good for jazz as well.

I would say the one thing that you should be aware of is that the neck is narrow, about 1" at the nut. Also the fretboard has a very slight radius.

[Mace]

I had an early A restored that developed another significant crack that caused paranoia and to this day I regret parting with it. I also had a very nice B I passed along. They have a beauty and a sweetness of tone that is haunting. I guess someday I will have another. Maybe this time I will have the common sense to hold on to it.

[twaaang]

Michael Wolf, though you sent a PM I'm happy to reply here.

My L&H has a relatively dry, woody tone. It's set up with D'Addario FT74s which don't give me any structural problem, in fact they overcome the tendency for string buzz that plagued me when I first tried Thomastik "stark" strings with their lesser tension. I have the same FT strings on my Rigel CT110, and my session friends tell me they can hear the L&H better. Early on I thought the G-string course was too boomy but I must have adapted because it's not an issue any more -- but the Thomastiks were actually worse on that score.

I can't speak to too many other mandolins in my own playing experience. One occasional session buddy has a custom-made Foley which to my ear is sweeter-sounding and has more sustain, but I wouldn't trade instruments (I would give a lot to have his triplet technique, though). I haven't shared space with a Gibson A recently enough to have anything helpful to say.

It's not immune to the usual session woes -- if there are too many fiddles around you still can find yourself playing by sense of feel; and you learn which bodhran players not to sit next to. Similarly my buddy on uillean pipes tries to sit just to my right, so he can hear me along with the fiddles (I suspect he can hear me better than I can).

Occasionally it can be temperamental, especially with seasonal changes. That cute little lap post can be the source of some rattling, which usually resolves with just a tweak once you've figured it out. The tailpiece cover slides on and off, and the snugness of the fit can be variable; usually some creative stuffing with a bit of chamois cloth does the trick unobtrusively.

In the thread I mentioned earlier, one of the greater contributors had an address in the Netherlands, perhaps he's close enough to give you some further help.

I hope this helps, and I'm glad to respond to anything else as well. -- Paul

[Michael Wolf]

Thanks very much for your detailed report Paul. I mailed you first, because my question wasn't the issue of this thread. But it's surely better to post it here. Thanks also to the others who answered me.
Fortunately it looks like I'll have the chance to play this Mando tomorrow. That's a nice opportunity, let's see.

[twaaang]

Good, you're in for a treat! I'll be curious to know your reaction, any details on how it was set up, and how it compares to your Gibson for this kind of playing. Enjoy!

Re-reading my own message from yesterday: I hope it didn't sound like the tailpiece cover slides on and off unpredictably while you're playing . . . instead I just meant that the tailpiece consists of separate moving parts, which as always have potential for extra noise. -- Paul

[Jonathan Peck]

My L&H has a relatively dry, woody tone. It's set up with D'Addario FT74s which don't give me any structural problem
I have ordered some D'addario J-62 strings, but since the FT-74 strings are almost identical in gauge to the J-74's, do you think it would be OK to try them on my style B? I currently have Calace RW92 strings on and I'd like to get them off before I go in for a set-up on Monday.

[twaaang]

Jonathan, I wish I were that much of an expert.

My take on it is that the string tension is more the point than the gauge. From the JustStrings website there is some data for the J62s and FT74s showing the string tension in lbs (J62: 17.8, 15.8, 18.6 and 16.7) versus (FT74: 23.2, 20.5, 27.3, 25.2) -- so the FTs have significantly greated tension than the J62s and I'd be very careful. You may have better luck than I coming up with similar data for the Calaces, JustStrings didn't list them and Bernunzios had them without the tension data. (By the way I don't know if JustStrings' tension data is supposed to be for single strings or for pairs, and I'd be wary of other sources which may report in kilograms instead of pounds . . . )

I think the best I can do for you and your beautiful asymmetrical L&H is recommend you air the question as a new thread in the Cafe. Actual luthiers should have better wisdom to share. I'll watch with interest. -- Paul

[Michael Wolf]

Ok, my reaction on the Lyon & Healy was positiv. In other words, it had a addictive effect on me after a few minutes of playing. I took it home. I'll have to get used to the short scale, but I have to say that it is a advantage when I play the Choro tunes. The action is next to perfect, it plays very easy. The neck is totally straight. This Mando should be made between 1921-24. The only issue is that two frets higher up the neck have to be leveled, because they stand out a bit and cause some rattle. The sound is very clear and "reverby", I like this. But it also has a very good bass response, much more than expected and quite comparable to the Gibsons. And it's very loud. I often read that the shorter scale leads to lesser volume on these Mandos. This seems not to be the case, at least with this example.
I couldn't bring my own Gibson A4, but the owner had a bunch of fine Mandos, so I could compare them all. I played it against a Gibson A3 Whiteface, Ajr Snakehead, Gibson F2, Gibson F5G and my own 1988 Flatiron A5, that I had with me to trade it in. I think these were the best testing-conditions I could hope for. The L&H could hold its own against all these Mandos. In fact it seemed to be the loudest Mando in the room and the sweetest sounding one, too.
Since I lusted after a Sneakhead several times, I was especially surprised that I preferred the L&H over this Snake by far. And this example was a really good sounding one, the best that I've played to date.
The old Gibsons don't have that clearness and liveliness in tone, but they definitively have their own quality. The f-hole Mandos, which you can't compare directly anyway, are very, very dry when you come from the L&H. To dry for me, at least in this comparison.
As a side-effect I noticed that I like the Paddlehead Gibsons somehow better than the Snakeheads. I came to this conclusion a few times now, when I had the chance to play and compare Mandos, so it seems to be true. To my ear the Paddleheads tend to be sweeter, more mellow and finer in tone.
I would define the tone of the L&H as very refined. Bright, but not harsh, yet balanced with good volume and dynamic range. It's lively and responsive and you can sound very romantic, because of its sweetness. For me it also works very well for Irish tunes and Oldtime. And of course Choro.
I can understand that the sweetness and the overtones of this Mando may be to much for other people. For me its a wonderful find.

[Michael Wolf]

This is my new Lyon&Healy. I'll make some better photos and possibly soundfiles the next days and put them in the other section of the message board.

Oh, and I have a question for the L&H owners: To you know of any cases in which the L&H will fit? There was no case with this L&H anymore.

[twaaang]

Congratulations, Michael, that's a beauty!

Mine came with an original case that I never use because it has no extra space -- as part of the bargain I got a rectangular tweed case which works very well. I don't know the brand name, it's whatever Rigel was using at the time. -- Paul

[Michael Wolf]

Thanks Paul.

I was wondering about how to attach a strap to this Mando, since it has no button at the tailpiece. Now I discovered two little hooks on the underside of the tailpiece. Do you thinks these are made for holding a strap?

Interestingly my Style B has the headstock of the Style C.
Do the other L&H owners here also have the shorter 13" scale? This may be a difference when talking about strings.
It would also be interesting to hear, if someone has ever played two L&Hs with the different scales.

[JEStanek]

Michael,

Here are some threads (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=Search&CODE=02&SID=4805ff7910e9e8ff) on L& H instruments from the Vintage section. #This thread has lots of (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=27;t=48108;hl=lyon)L&H info in it (many great photos too).
Edit: The different scales are touched upon (I didn't re-read th thread all the way through though).

Jamie

[Michael Wolf]

Ah, nice. Thanks Jamie. Now I have something to read.

[Dale Ludewig]

And here I thought all that was needed to "date" the mandolin was what restaurant to suggest.

[twaaang]

Michael, I attached a strap THROUGH the tailpiece. #There is enough of a channel there that you can drop a needle and thread through it, and then use the thread to pull through something more substantial like a bootlace.

On the other end I attach to the narrow part of the pickguard, just above the screw, with a loop of bootlace as well.

I used black bootlace (like what you can get for hiking boots) on either end, attached to a black LongHollow smoothie mandolin strap, all of which works well and unobtrusively with the black pickguard. #-- #Paul

[Steve Weeks]

I just found this thread. Over 25 years ago, my dad found a Lyon and Healy "B" at an auction in a box with some other instruments. He was interested in the other instruments and gave me the mandolin. It's a very playable instrument and looks much like Michael's above. A couple years ago, I took it to Washburn which is now located in my home town (Mundelein, IL) and they admired it but didn't tell me when they thought it was made. The serial number is "41", so I expect it is an older instrument. I'll have to look under the tailpiece as mrmando suggests. There's something on the pickguard too.
Steve

[Steve Weeks]

The pickguard says "PAT. APL'D FOR" (image). There is nothing inside the tailpiece cover. The tailpiece has a clamp or damper of some sort. The strap button on the heel (is that right?) is probably not original, but since it's there and it's handy...
Steve

[Steve Weeks]

Tailpiece Style "B".
Steve

[Steve Weeks]

Inside of tailpiece cover.
Steve

[BlueMountain]

Steve, mine (#94 A) has a Pat.AppliedFor stamp just above the lowest screw on the tailpiece, and probably yours does, too.

[Steve Weeks]

Steve, mine (#94 A) has a Pat.AppliedFor stamp just above the lowest screw on the tailpiece, and probably yours does, too.
I went back to see and, yes, it's there. Somehow or other mine got a strap button on that center screw. I see that it's not original. It's handy, though, and probably can be replaced if it's ever necessary. I've go to take a real close look at the pickguard and see if I've got that "filled-in" stamp (Don't think so...)
Steve

[man dough nollij]

I just spotted this A style on Gryphonstrings.com. I've never seen one of these in person, but they look beautiful. It appears to have a little bit of a cylinder back?



http://www.gryphonstrings.com/instpix/29876/2987615s.jpg

[Steve Weeks]

I just spotted this A style on Gryphonstrings.com. I've never seen one of these in person, but they look beautiful. It appears to have a little bit of a cylinder back?
The back is arched (carved that way, I think), but not to my best knowledge cylindrical. 'Course, I've only seen my own specimen ("B" #41) and all the images here.
Steve