Electronic tuner

[littlebuddie]

Hello,
After using tuning fork and pitch pipe for many years, I bought a Korg CA-30. Being new to these electronic tuners, I have a general question regarding tuning the open E string with it. It begins by indicating E then it jumps around a bit and indicates A and B flat or even something else. This happens on two mandolins and a banjo mandolin whether string is picked independently or in pair but not when I blow E on my pitch pipe. Is this to be expected or do I have a defective tuner? Is there something harmonic going on? Other than this discrepancy, it seems to work fine. Any response is greatly appreciated.
Thanks!

[David O'Brien]

I am wondering if it might have something to do with intonation and/or what Dave Cohen speaks of as "dead" spots along the tonal spectrum. Now I am not suggesting that you have "bad" instruments, but, I have a mandolin, a good one, that the tuner reacts to in the same way and it is something inherent in the carving or voicing of the instrument I am led to believe and so a solution was to fix the bridge at the proper place on the top, tighten up all the loose screws on the tuning machines and generally get the mandolin in as good a shape as I could and then retest with the tuner, it is an interesting dilema that you have that I bet many others have experienced or still experience with certain instruments. I do doubt that it is the tuner though.

[littlebuddie]

Hmmm, That's an interesting thought dobnc . Although mine are not shabby instruments, I have set them all up myself. Perhaps I am the culprit here. I'll check out that possibility. Did you mean that you had the same experience until you did a fresh set up? Thanks for your suggestion.
littlebuddie http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[EdSherry]

How are you using the tuner? If you're plugging a pickup into the 1/4" jack on tuner, you face a different set of problems than if you're relying on the microphone built into the tuner. Basically, the microphone is susceptible to room noise, etc. Many people use a clip-on piezo "tuner pickup" that clamps onto the instrument and then plugs into the 1/4" jack, like this Peterson from Elderly (NFI):

http://elderly.com/accessories/items/PTP1.htm

[allenhopkins]

A lot of tuners will skip around and show a "partial" reading (A string will read "D," etc.). Remember, your string vibrates not only as a whole, which gives you the basic pitch, but also in halves, thirds etc., and the tuner chip, not quite as discriminatory as the ear (or perhaps just more sensitive), will sometimes read the overtones rather than the basic pitch. Usually goes away if you strike the string again, and I've found that using a suction-cup or alligator-clip plug-in transducer, attached to the instrument, gives fewer "false" readings than using the built in mic in the tuner. You have to lay out another $15 or so for the attachment, but it has the other benefit of reducing the tendency to pick up background noise, other instruments, etc.

[MikeEdgerton]

Make sure the batteries are fresh. When they start to fail most tuners will get erratic.

[Walter Newton]

I think you're probably right about it picking up overtones rather than there being anything wrong with the tuner. In addition to trying a pickup as mentioned you can also experiment with how you pluck the string - bare finger vs. pick, louder vs. softer, closer to the center of the string vs. closer to the bridge, continuous picking vs. letting the note ring out, etc.

[mickey.cole]

my intelli does the same thing but on the G string

[mandomick]

my intelli does the same thing but on the G string
Both of my intellis will occasionally read the G string as E. Mostly like Mike said, when the batteries start to go the tuners get squirrely. By the time I figure this out and change batteries, it's like getting a new tuner! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[littlebuddie]

Hello again and thank you all for your responses.
EdSherry , I am trying the unit with the built in microphone in a very quit environment. I thought about buying a plug-in contact microphone for the unit for the reason that you and allenhopkins suggest but I thought I'd ask you knowledgeable folks here before I throw good money after bad. Mike, I put in new batteries but it didn't change anything. Walter, I've picked the string every which-way and no change. These are all great responses and I appreciate all the input. I may end up taking the unit back to the music store to try another one or let them experiment with it. Of course, I'll take my instrument and compare it with the results from one of theirs. I'll report back on what I find out. mickey and mandomick, your's does the same thing on the G string? Well' I guess you're living with the problem better than I am!
Regards,
littlebuddie

[Tim Bowen]

Tuners with built-in mics are wonky by nature. Let me rephrase that - tuners are wonky by nature.

In-line KORG tuners are really good. In fact, I think that when it comes to accuracy of intonation, KORG in-lines are a bit superior to what many working players in the trenches consider to be the standard of the industry, which is the BOSS TU-2.

Lots of my students come in with KORG tuners, including the CA-30. With a mic, I find that the instrument needs to be placed very close to the tuner, and even so, the note reading decay tends to fall off very quickly.

Teaching students how to use their tuners is part of my agenda, and I don't expect the general population to pop for, say, a Peterson. That said, once I've showed them the general ins and outs of using their electronic tuner, and have explained that tuning is sort of an art unto itself - I ask if they wouldn't mind if I switch to my Intellitouch clip-on, such that I can expedite the tuning process and move forward with our musical studies.

As to different instruments, overtones, and nuances. I teach guitar, mandolin, and banjo, and deal with a huge assortment of instruments and tuners. They all have their quirks. Sometimes I'll go back and forth between a 12th fret harmonic and an open string just to get a stable read from the tuner. With an Intellitouch, I often re-position the unit on the instrument's headstock to get a good read.

As a working musician, my tuners of choice these days include the aforementioned Intellitouch (mostly for teaching though), the BOSS TU-2, and the Peterson StroboStomp. Yes, the Peterson is a superior device, but it's not without its share of hinky behavior as well. Tuners are like capos. As to getting quick with them, you have to learn your way around their preferences and subsequently make some adjustments as based on the quirks.

[littlebuddie]

Thanks Tim for relaying your knowledge and experience on this subject, I need to learn a lot about these things. I took the CA-30 back to the music store and tried the unit on Eastman and Epiphone mandolins. It still didn't work right. I got my money back because they were out of stock on the CA-30. I ordered one on the internet last night and a contact mic to go with it. I am going to guess that I will have better luck with the new one. I just wanted to thank you all for your suggestions and input. As always, it is much appreciated!
littlebuddie

[mandomedic]

It's been my experience that if you play any low string with a harmonic at the 12th fret, your tuner will work much better. Especially low G on a mandolin or E on the guitar or bass. Try it! kenc
www.kencradio.com

[Ivan Kelsall]

I find a similar thing but on the 'G' string.Unless i play the G string quite loudly,the Intelli tuner indicates 'D',that's the ONLY error,all the other strings are indicated correctly.
When i'm at home,i use an Intelli IPM-100 tuner plugged into my Fender Guitar tuner.This allows me to clip onto my bridge & i get NO tuning errors at all,
Saska

[littlebuddie]

Thanks mandomedic and saska , I'll keep those ideas in mind when I use my new tuner!
littlebuddie

[littlebuddie]

I got my replacement Korg CA-30 and I am very pleased with how it works. No problem with this unit. No jumping around on any of the string readings and it pegs my A tuning fork at -zero+ . I also am happy with the Korg CM-100 contact microphone, sure works fine in a noisy environment. Without it, the tuner picks up my canaries singing across the room and unfortunately they don't have a volume control. Thanks again everyone for your input!
Regards,
littlebuddie

[Mr. Loar]

Even this expensive Peterson tuner does that. You have to get real close to it sometimes.

[Hal Jeanes]

Try muting the other strings and see if your problem persists. Sometimes tuners pick up harmonics from the strings you are not tuning.

[mandopete]

Another thing to bear in mind and especially if you attach the transducer to the bridge is that you might also pick up unwanted harmonics from the other side (not the dark side). That's why I use them little rubber grommets to dampen the strings.

[SternART]

Yep, I've found on some tuners playing the open notes with less volume helps.

[Tim Bowen]

The instructions with some tuners actually say to pluck strings with your finger to reduce overtones. Definitely make a difference with a clip-on Intellitouch.
Not to be contrary for the sake of it, but even within a controlled environment where time is not a factor, when is this actually feasible with a dual course/unison string instrument such as the mandolin? Even at home, I can't consistently pluck one string per course on a mando with a thumb or finger and get an accurate read. I can't even pluck one string specifically within a course without a plectrum, and I don't think this is anything unusual. Add a tightly paced live set, soft blue stage lighting, and - do you see where I'm going with this?

I do think that it's important to understand the quirks of different tuners, but I don't know a single professional working musician of any instrument choice that has time to sweet talk tuners into doing their job, in the various ways that I consistently read of online. Not trying to be rude, just pragmatic.

[Mr. Loar]

I love my Conn Strobo Tuner. The little condenser microphone picks up the mandolin notes really good.

[Ken Sager]

I love the Seiko STX-1 tuner. It clips on AND has a built in mic. It's easy to calibrate, generates an audible pitch to tune to, and the clip will fit almost anything compared to the Intellitouch. It also is more accurate than the Intelli or Intellitouch.

Mandolins are harder to tune by their nature - being more percussive and with faster decay than many instruments. A mando-banjo is harder still, as are banjos in general...

Love to all,
Ken

[John L]

The instructions with some tuners actually say to pluck strings with your finger to reduce overtones. Definitely make a difference with a clip-on Intellitouch.
Not to be contrary for the sake of it, but even within a controlled environment where time is not a factor, when is this actually feasible with a dual course/unison string instrument such as the mandolin? Even at home, I can't consistently pluck one string per course on a mando with a thumb or finger and get an accurate read. I can't even pluck one string specifically within a course without a plectrum, and I don't think this is anything unusual. Add a tightly paced live set, soft blue stage lighting, and - do you see where I'm going with this?

I do think that it's important to understand the quirks of different tuners, but I don't know a single professional working musician of any instrument choice that has time to sweet talk tuners into doing their job, in the various ways that I consistently read of online. Not trying to be rude, just pragmatic.
I find picking one string is easier with a finger than with a pick. Just pluck up with your index finger for the treble side of the pair, and down with your thumb on the bass side of the pair. I hardly have to think about it anymore and the tuner performs well (if the batteries are ok!).

(Not to be contrary)