mandolino

[margora]

I am considering ordering a mandolino. I'm interested in the relative merits of different makers (eg. Larsen), US or Europe, wherever.

[Jim Garber]

Interesting question: would one go to a lute maker or a mandolin makeror someone like Daniel Larsen who does both. I suppose the main difference is the gut or nylon strings vs. the metal ones and how they are attached on the body of the instrument.

Jim

[jeffshuniak]

I just bought one in the US, Im pretty happy with the idea of the builder, and future repairman if needed, lives in the same country. I would recommend him, but I have only had the mandolin for a few days. It looks and sounds really nice, the best I have ever had, but that isnt saying too much.

I bought a mandolin from italy about a year ago, it didnt take too long to come, but it did take about a week just to clear customs ( I checked the tracking #) once it hit the states it really moved though.

[Eugene]

From his use of the term "mandolino" in English, I suspect Robert is contemplating a reproduction of a ca. 1700-1750 soprano lute, Jeff. Am I right, Robert?

I have commissioned one from an experienced lute builder...however, mine will be the first mandolino he has built. I don't expect it for several months yet. If you'd like details, Robert, please send me an e-mail.

I have always been a great fan of the looks of Barber's & Harris's work (too bad I can't afford it); they've recently added pictures of mandolini to their catalog (http://www.lutesandguitars.co.uk/htm/cat09.htm). I have used Daniel Larson for repair, but I have never played an instrument he has built and thus can't vouch. There are several others whose work I visually admire...but I have not handled and can't vouch for sound or playability.

[margora]

Yes, Eugene, a soprano lute -- although I thought (this is based on memory of the Tyler-Sparks book) that there was a difference between what Tyler-Sparks
call a "mandolino" and a soprano lute. But perhaps my memory is faulty.
I have not played a Larsen mandolino, but I have tried out one of his 8-course lutes, and two different styles of vihuela (he exhibits regularly at the Boston Early Music Festival, which I go to). His workmanship is excellent but, as I don't really play these instruments, I am not the best judge. His prices seem very reasonable.

[margora]

Addendum to Eugene: what I meant to say is: I want to order a mandolino in the Tyler-Sparks sense of the word AND if I understand them correctly (which I may not) a mandolino is not the same thing as a soprano lute. I welcome clarification. Or to put the matter visually, what I want looks like what Daniel Larsen builds.

[Eugene]

You are absolutely correct, Robert. #In "soprano lute," I was simply simplifying for those who aren't familiar with the nomenclature of such things. #I probably should have said "a lute-like thing in the soprano range." #To see a good number of extant period mandolini, click here (http://servsim.cite-musique.fr/museedelamusique/recherche.asp?MinToView=0&source=OEUVRE&oeuvre_motcles=pandurina&oeuvre_facteur=&oeuvre_inventaire=&oeuvre_lieu=&oeuvre_datedebut=&oeuvre_datefin=&Rechercher=Rechercher). #Excepting 8 (which looks to be a mandolino genovese/genoese), search items 6-18 are mandolini.

[etbarbaric]

Hi Robert,

I only have time for a quick post as my day job (night job!) is encroaching on my music again!!

I would strongly recommend finding a luthier who will closely follow a historic instrument rather than taking too many liberties with design. We are only now coming to understand the unique properties of the mandolino (and finger-style play) and original models are key to this understanding (IMHO). Choosing an instrument will have alot to do with what music you want to play... 4, 5, 6, courses, etc.

As with many vague old writings, I might advise "neither to large, nor too small" :-)... In seriousness, though I love my copy of the tiny Cutler-Challen Strad, it can be a challenge to hold and play for some. Also, though some builders make larger instruments (like the German Baroque Mandolin developed for the modern German plectrum technique) some have little precedence in the historic record. Mandolinos do *not* have to be huge to produce a good sound.

Many original mandolinos are also built in an almost impossibly light fashion... something to look for as this is almost certainly a key factor for their intended sound.

I can personally recommend Ivo Magherini (http://www.floxflorum.com/). I have a five-course instrument of his (purchased second-hand) and he clearly understands the instrument. Paul O'dette also plays a six-course Magherini mandolino.

You might also check out Matteis Wagner (http://www.lutes-strings.de/). I've not seen his instruments in person but the photos look quite nice and he builds a few different models.

I'm sure Alex and Richard will have some recommendations too.

You should expect to pay $1,500-$3,000 USD for a good mandolino. This is not cheap, but its worth it if you want to have a long life with the instrument.

Eric

[Jim Garber]

I can personally recommend Ivo Magherini (http://www.floxflorum.com/). #I have a five-course instrument of his (purchased second-hand) and he clearly understands the instrument. #Paul O'dette also plays a six-course Magherini mandolino.
That is a strange site. I find nothing but a picture of a lute and some copy but no way to contact the maker.

BTW is one difference between mandolino and soprano lute the cant of the tuning pegs?

Jim

[etbarbaric]

Hmm... Ivo's site seems to be generating a CGI error now... I remember seeing a "Contacts" tab when it was working earlier this evening. Perhaps it collapsed under the load of all of the eager would-be mandolino buyers! :-)

As for "soprano lutes", its a term that I might use generically (to describe something tuned an octave above a lute of a certain pitch) but I think it lacks a true organological definition (excepting, perhaps Mr. Tyler's) and association with a particular set of attributes (such as a particular peg-box design). There are a number of surviving instruments described variously as mandore, mandour, pandurina, etc. and at least some of these may have occasionally been tuned to the intervals of the upper (four or five) courses of the lute. The Scottish Skine manuscript (mandour, ca. 1625, I think) has a bunch of tunes in French tabliture. Most are for the French mandore tuning... but some tunes are described as for "the old tuning of the Lvte (sic.)"

Anyway... the mandolino is obscure enough without wandering down that particular path...

Eric

[Alex Timmerman]

Hi Margora and others,

The Soprano lute ("kleine Octavelaute" ) and the Mandolino are two different instruments and were tuned differently. The names were ´in use´ at the time and quite accurate for both instruments. And so - again in contrast with what we are lead to believe (CD booklets, Mandolin orchestra Websites, etc. etc) - have not much in common with eachother (they were only both plucked with the right hand fingers) and are not directly related with eachother.

If you like to play the whole Mandolino repertoire it is best to order a Mandolino with six double (gut/nylon) strings.

I think it would be best to find a luthier who is specialized in making lutes. So that the approuch towards Mandolino making comes from the knowledge of how to deal with light-weight gut strung lute-like plucked instruments, rather than from the thinking of modern guitar- or metal strung mandolin making.

Sebastian Nuñez in Utrecht, The Netherlands has copied for me the Ambrosio Maraffi Mandolino that is to be found in the Haags Gemeentemuseum of The Hague(Netherlands). (http://home.hetnet.nl/~sebas-vero/Lutes.html) That particular instrument (his first Mandolino) is exact its original except for the ivory that is replaced by bone. You can see it by scrolling down a bit on his web page here. It is a wonderful instrument, that I enjoy very much every time I play it!


Best,

Alex


For Mr. Ivo Magherini´s full website
click here. (http://www.floxflorum.com/contacts.php)

[etbarbaric]

Hi Alex,

Ivo's site is indeed working again this morning... However, your link to Sebastian Nunez is not working for me! :-)

Ah... computers... who needs 'em?

Eric

[Jim Garber]

Sebastian Nuñez in Utrecht, The Netherlands has copied for me the Ambrosio Maraffi Mandolino that is to be found in the Haags Gemeentemuseum of The Hague(Netherlands). (http://home.hetnet.nl/~sebas-vero/Lutes.html) That particular instrument (his first Mandolino) is exact its original except for the ivory that is replaced by bone. You can see it by scrolling down a bit on his web page here. It is a wonderful instrument, that I enjoy very much every time I play it!
Alex, I assume that it is the one labelled Armandolino(Milan XVIII-th century). It is a beautiful instrument.

What is the material that he used for the fingerboard and the peghead finial?

My other question with these instruments and lutes in general is how you deal with the tied on gut frets? I have enough problems working out intonation with bridge placement on a fretted instrument.

I did get Ivo's site to navigate. Is what he calls a pandurina what we call a mandolino or are there differences?

I looks like Maraffo is the old mandolino maker to copy. Matthias Wagner (http://www.lutes-strings.de/manmar.html) has copied another by this maker.

Jim

[etbarbaric]

Hi Jim,

Gut frets are actually a blessing, though sometimes they seem like a curse. They are typical to early gut-strung (fixed-bridge) instruments including lutes, guitars, mandolinos, etc. The nice thing about gut frets is that you can adjust them (up or down) to match different tunings (different tempered scales, various meantone tunings, etc.) Musical life was once considerably more complex (and interesting) than the fixed-pitch tuning (everything at A-440) and the equal-tempered scale that many of us take for granted.

Gut frets do require maintenance as they eventually wear out and sometimes become loose and slip. Gut changes character with changes in humidity and this affects gut frets as well as gut strings. Tying a good tight fret is a valuable skill for a lutenist or early mandolin player.

Eric

[btrott]

I agree with Eric that you want to consider what size instrument works best for you. I play a Challen reproduction Stradavaius, and while it is small, it has a lot of sound, and cuts through in ensemble playing fairly well. Once you figure out how to hold it, the small size is not too problematic.

Good luck with the search.

Barry

[Alex Timmerman]

Hello Jim and others,

Yes, in the book you can find it on page 12 described and on 13 pictured. At page 106 you will find a full picture of it´s back.

But it is not labelled as an "Armandolino"; the name Armandolino is one of three names that these early instruments of the mandolin family were given at the time by several composers. Therefore and because that name gives a good distinction between this type and other mandolins in the mandolin family.
Today I just call this type ´Mandolino´. I do this because I want to be more ´in line´ with the fine research by James Tyler and Paul Sparks, and because I found enough possibilities to name the other types of the mandolin family by their original names. #

The material that he used for the fingerboard and the peghead finial is tortoise-shell on gold together with painted reddish mastic.

Eric gave very good and detailed info about the tied on gut frets that I completely agree with. When it needs to be done quickly and if he has time to do I leave the work of placing new frets to Sebastian Nuñez. He is much better in that than I am.

I choose for the Maraffi to be copied because of several reasons: first simply because I liked it´s design very much. Secondly, (for me) it is a more than exellent example of a six double strung Mandolino with a design inwhich both the Roman ´aristocratic´- #and the more ´common´ Milanese model of this mandolin type are combined.
Thirdly I can play the whole Mandolino (and early mandolin) repertoire on it.

Since I understand that his Web-site is not working for everybody I will post some photos of the Mandolino Sebastian made for me in 1995. Since than he made quite a few more.
One well-known German mandolinist who plays a Nuñez Mandolino (after Maraffi) is Daniel Ahlert from the Duo Ahlert & Schwab. Before he made up his mind to commission Sebastiaan Nuñez Daniel first tried my Mandolino. His one was made in 2003.


Indeed the German luthier Matthias Wagner has copied another mandolino ´labelled´ Maraffi. This is an earlier instrument strung with five double strings. I have seen and examined this instrument in the Germanisches Nationalmuseum Nürnberg. It is a good example also. #


Another excellent maker of early mandolins is the Italian luthier Federico Gabrielli. Like Sebastian Nuñez, he is an excellent restorer from who I have seen great work. I also have seen his early mandolin replicas and like them very much. #

They are played by most of the Italian mandolinists of today like: Duilio Galfetti and Wolfgang Paul of ´Il Giardino Armonico´, with whom they recorded Vivaldi's ´Concerti per liuto e mandolino´ (CD Teldec) playing 6-course Mandolino made after a nice Antonio Monzino example of 1792 .
And also Dorina Frati, yet another interesting Italian mandolinist. She plays a 6-course Gabrielli Mandolino (CD-Giuseppe Gaetano Boni's compositions, divertimenti per camera (CD Tactus).

For those who follow(ed) the topic of ´Historical mandolins and Cultural Preferences´ it is perhaps of interest that Marco Capucci plays a Cremonese mandolin in the Ensemble Baschenis (CD Ducale) and that the Cremonese mandolin used by Duilio Galfetti on the CD recording in the mandolin music by van Beethoven, Hummel and Hoffmann (CD-Arts) was also made by Federico Gabrielli.


His fine work you can see here at his Web site. (http://www.mandolino.it/Six%20course%20Baroque%20mandolin.htm)


Greetings,

Alex

Photo: Mandolino (6x2) (after Ambrogio Maraffi) made by Sebastian Nuñez in 1995.

[Alex Timmerman]

Hi Jim again,

Ivo Magherini means of course a Mandolino. There were no (Italian) "Pandurina´s" made in 18th century.
He should better not call the instrument that way, since it is a term Preatorius (±1612) mentioned for the Mandore (the ´Mandurinichen´) as alternative latin name: "some people name it Pandurina".


And a Mandore is not a Mandolino... .


Best,

Alex.

PS. mr. Magherini is not the only luthier who is mixing the names up...

[Jim Garber]

It is rather confusing, isn't it? Perhaps if I had another daughter i would name her Pandurina -- a lovely sound to it. On the other hand, if it were a boy i would name him Mandolino. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Jim

[Alex Timmerman]

Haha, and what about ´Mandola´ or ´Viola´...



Alex http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[bratsche]

´Mandola´ or ´Viola´? I like those! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Glad you cleared up the thing about the Armandolino. I was wondering if an 18th century charango, in Italian, would have been called an Armadillino. ;-)

bratsche

[Alex Timmerman]

Hello Bratsche,

Don´t think it was that simple to switch over to Mandolino; with "Armandolino" (second in line of how it was called in it´s time) the confusion in the nomenclature of the old- ànd modern instruments in the Mandolin family could have easily been solved.

However, I gave that name up for the sake of uniformity.

Now I like it very much that the only real mandolin - that is, the very first instrument to be named that way - has given back it´s original name.


Greetings,

Alex

[margora]

Thanks to everyone for their helpful comments!

[Jim Garber]

Robert:
Just wondering what you are considering after this discussion.

Jim

[margora]

Jim, I am still accumulating information. I have heard good things about Nunez and Wagner from other sources. But it will be a while before I make a decision.

[billkilpatrick]

you might consider the less expensive - but by no means cheap - alternative of buying a small scale oud and tuning it like a mandolino.

or...

order a pear shaped charango to be made for you with old-fashioned tuning pegs for about the same amount of money - $100+ with postage.

you're just loaded with options...

[Alex Timmerman]

Hello Margora,


Seriously, stick to fine Mandolino makers like for instance the ones we discussed: Sebastian Nuñez (Holland), Matthias Wagner (Germany), Wolfgang Früh (France) and/or Federico Gabrielli (Italy) etc.

Or, if you have faith in the ability of a local luthier, appoint him to make your Mandolino after a fine original. Only than your playing technique will develop as it should and you can appreciate the pleasure of the Mandolino music best.


Cheers,

Alex.

[Alex Timmerman]

Hello Margora and other interested,

I just heard from Sebastian Nuñez that he now also make a less decorated version after the Maraffi Mandolino. Here is an image of it´s front

[Alex Timmerman]

and it´s back.


Best,

Alex

[etbarbaric]

I agree with Alex' advice to stick with someone who knows how to build a mandolino. Because of their small size, relatively high tension, and tight tollerances, proper building and setup are essential for a successful, playable instrument that is capable of producing good tone. Larger instruments such as lutes and guitars are much more forgiving in this respect. This ability requires a luthier who *understands* mandolinos (or at least lutes) and knows how to pull sound out of very meager resources.

I have heard too many people recount how they tried to learn to play the mandolino but gave it up after frustrations with not being able to produce a good sound. Yes, good technique is a vital component of this but having a decent instrument can make the critical difference between success and failure.

Eric

ps - Thanks Alex, for the beautiful photos... Mr. Nunez certainly does a fine job.

[Jim Garber]

Gorgeous instrument by Nunez. I am always attracted by the subtler ornamentations. BTW what are the woods on the bowl?

Jim

[margora]

Alex: How much?

[Eugene]

Yes, how much for the scaled down decor (which, other than the semi-bland finial, I tend to prefer)?

[etbarbaric]

Mr. Nunez' Website lists his "Milanese mandolino" (sic.) as starting from 2840 Euros (see his pricelist (http://home.hetnet.nl/~sebas-vero/pricelutes.html)) I'm sure the price changes with varying degrees of ornament.

Eric

[margora]

This is indeed the price on his website. But I think this pricelist predates the instrument shown above.

[etbarbaric]

Alex shared with me in private e-mail that the price of the simpler instrument that he posted here was 3000 Euro. (I was going to let Alex answer... but since I had the information... hopefully he won't mind)

The instrument pictured on the Website (Alex's personal instrument, I believe) is the fancier version and I imagine it would cost more than 2840 Euro to have that model built. Presumably Mr. Nunez might still build one for 2840 Euro but it would probably be simpler still than the one posted here yesterday by Alex. In any case, I've found that pricing is usually something that gets worked out at the time of placing an order.

Eric

[margora]

Thanks!

[Alex Timmerman]

Hello all,

Yes Eric, the 2840 Euro was what Sebastian charged for the Mandolino which is shown earlier at this topic here. That was without case and back in 1995. #

The less decorated version - which is still gorgeous if you ask me - is about 3000 Euro now and with case, I believe. I´ll check this once more when I talk to him this weekend and let you all know.

Best,

Alex

[billkilpatrick]

alex -

re: strings, could i ask you what the metric distance is between the bridge and the bone nut of your newly aquired, absolutely stunning...highly coveted...instrument?

you make me wish - not for the first time - that i was really really rich.

- green eyed bill

[Alex Timmerman]

Hi Bill,

The mensure or swinging stringlength (distance between the bridge and the bone nut) for both the Maraffi copies is 315mm.


Greetings,

Alex

[billkilpatrick]

many thanks. may i ask where you bought your strings? mimmo of aquila here in italy says that the 37 cm. distance on my charango is too long for a 1st course g"g" in nylgut. he also says that it would be better if i brought the instrument up to him. i'm not adverse to the idea of a day or two in venice but it ain't going to happen soon and i'm really curious to see if my charango sounds like a mandolino.

ciao - bill

[Alex Timmerman]

Hello Bill,

I get my strings, both nylon and gut, #through Sebastian Nuñez.

Perhaps there is another way to avoid the vulnerable top-string question.

I have tried to put down my thoughts on tuning your Charango in to a "Mando-rango" at your Charango Topic. Click here for a fast link. (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=6;t=12536;st=25)


Best,

Alex

[Jim Garber]

Robert:
I was going thru old postings and wondered if you ever commissioned anyone to build you a mandolino?

Jim

[Eugene]

Coincidentally to the resurrection of this topic, I just heard mine is finished and should be arriving in about a week. I will be mostly out of state and away from computers for the coming 3.5 weeks, but will try to do a little weekend posting of images and info as I can.

[Jim Garber]

Eugene:
I can't recall who the maker of yours is. Please... more details.
Jim

[Eugene]

Mine was built by Luciano Faria (http://www.lucianofaria.com/) and is patterned after the Smorsone (1736) in the Berlin museum. #The original is backed in alternating ribs of ebony and ivory. #Mine is backed in old-stock "imperial" rosewood (a form of Dalbergia nigra that hasn't been seen in 80 yrs) and maple. #I haven't seen images of any of it in any stage of construction; I have no idea what to expect. #Luciano says it is very beautiful (he may be biased) and more ornate than I'd ordered. #Bonus! #He's mailing ca. 30 images of the work in progress along with the piece.