Pickup for f-4

[Stephanie Reiser]

The F-4 will be used for folk-type music and will be plugged in. It is still under construction waiting for the back to arrive, and so I can install a mic/pickup directly inside the body that isn't passive if that is the way to go. Amplifying acoustic guitars is easier since I can stick my whole arm in there, and I usually go with the Fishman Matrix that has the pre-amp included. But the mandolin choices seem passive and something attached to the bridge that needs a seperate pre-amp.
Any thoughts or ideas?

[Klaus Wutscher]

If I was the customer I would go for the internal mounted Schertler pickup. It´s what Peter Mix uses for his carbon mandolins. It does not require a preamp, but the player may want to invest in an outboard parametric EQ to get the best out of the pickup.

Internal mini mikes (crown et. al.) are another option but I found them to be quite a hassle since they usually need to be combined with a piezo to get decent volumes, and that requires a "blendable" preamp- I´m not fond of this setup but big touring acts get good results that way.

One thing you need to figfure out with the Schertler is the exact placement of the pickup. It makes a HUGE difference!

[Paul Kotapish]

I am not a big fan of pickups for mandolins and feel pretty strongly that a mic on a stand delivers better sound in most situations unless you are playing with a loud rock band or in big stadium venues. That said, some folks get pretty good results using bridge or soundboard transducers.

There is no magic bullet pickup that works for everyone's touch and desired tone. In my experience, soundboard pickup such as the Schertler generally are a little smoother and warmer than bridge-style pickups such as the Baggs or Fishman. In general, the more delicate and consistent your touch, the better results you will have with a piezo-type pickup. Chris Thile, for example, plays with a very controlled and relatively light touch, and he gets pretty good results from the Schertler. Folks with a heavier, more aggessive attack or who play with a dramatic dynamic range are probably going to experience a fair amount of piezo "quack," that fugly rubber-band sound so common in plugged-in acoustic instruments.

Working with a combination of mic and pickup will deliver more options, but as Klaus mentioned, this will require a stereo jack and cable plus a blender of some sort. I've had good luck with both the Rane AP-13 and the more portable and battery-capable Fishman Pocket Blender. It's more hassle, but it gives you more control.

Regardless of whether you use a single source or a blended option, you will want some sort of preamp to smooth out the EQ and give you some control over the output signal.

Anything that you have to plug in will probably provide more options and features, but it will also give you some potential problem with ground-loop noise and hum. Although more savvy venues will have addressed this problem with their on-stage power supply, this issue is almost always an issue at festivals, and I found that a battery-powered preamp sidestepped this problem more effectively.

In all cases you will need to figure out a way to compensate for dynamic changes in a different way than you would working a microphone. A stomp-box compressor or preamp with a volume switch or a volume pedal are all options that folks use.

Good luck.

[mandroid]

If there is an extended 'florida' It would make sense to consider
a sound hole internal microphone, and take advantage of the underside of the fingerboard extension being over the soundhole to mount it.

Stereo jack will allow the power to run the capacitor to come thru XLR to TRS cable.

Schertler's CdynM, Contact dynamic Microphone/transducer. will do well
in turning the vibrating sound box into a good signal.

[Gail Hester]

Stephanie, I would think the reason to build a pickup into a mandolin would be for those situations where the stage volume was too loud for a microphone, otherwise a good microphone is superior sound wise. With that in mind I guess I would install a good piezo like a feather or something and then use one of these when you can.

[flatback8]

I don't know how to add links on here - but this thread ("Pickup and mic tests with audio, K&k, baggs radius, fishman, etc.") is pretty comprehensive.

I could only ever afford a Fishman bridge (thru a belt clip pre-amp) and I have to go through lots of different house PAs and guitar amps; sometimes it sounds really sweet, and other times I wish I was somewhere else it sounds so bad!

I can't use a mic because I'm the lead-singer too, and - believe me - it's hell trying to give a dynamic vocal performance and be strapped to a belly-button high microphone!

[Klaus Wutscher]

I could only ever afford a Fishman bridge (thru a belt clip pre-amp) and I have to go through lots of different house PAs and guitar amps; #sometimes it sounds really sweet, and other times I wish I was somewhere else it sounds so bad!
The problem with the Fishman bridge is that imo, it is a sonically inferior bridge. The difference between a fishman bridge and a good gibson style replica is clearly audible and you get to hear this ALL the time, not only when you plug in.

Regarding the use of microphones, nobody argues that even a so-so mike will sound better than almost any pickup; however, if you are a pro or have a "pro attitude" (that is, you play for money), the old scout motto "be prepared" applies. You need to show up with a setup that works,and using a mike sometimes doesn´t. I was playing a festival once where the sound guy was unable (and hardly trying)to get our all-mike setup to work. It was a desaster and I would have safed myself from a lot of hassle if I would have been able to plug in. I learned my lesson.

[the_guitar_guru]

I have had great luck with my Kevin Mathers built F4-3 Point which has an internal Crown Mini Mic and internal McIntire (spelling?) SBT. It uses a Baggs buffer jack to get the 2 signals out and an external Baggs MixPro to blend the 2 sources and there is a lot of room for tonal adjustments. It started out with a Fishman bridge but as Klaus said; it was sonically inferior as a bridge and its electrified tone wasn't good either. It works great in both live and studio settings.

[woodwizard]

The Shertler DynM is the best one I've ever used not counting just a mic. But now that I've gotten use to it I think I even like it better. You can move around without having to be statue in front of a mic. Unless you're useing one mic like a KSM44 or equevilent. In this case I like that mic the best.

[Perry]

I don't think you can go wrong with an internally mounted Schertler. Very clean and "stealthy" install.

As mentioned above the Schertler sounds good straight into the board. Then down the road if you get a really good pre-amp* and real parametric EQ you can get it to sound really really good.

* personally I don't think the Baggs Para and the Fishman EQ's
have the right "range" of EQ for mandos.