Pickup and mic tests with audio

[Mark Robertson-Tessi]

I recorded a cut of me playing a tune with four tracks in order to compare some different pickups and mics that I have. #The motivation is outlined in a previous thread from a few days ago:
http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin....t=50897 (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=8;t=50897) #

I recorded the mando using:
1) a K&K Silver Bullet condensor mic
2) a Shure SM-57
3) an LRBaggs Radius Pickup
4) a Fishman M100 bridge pickup. #

All four options were recorded at once, meaning that the performance on each track is identical. #The details and soundfiles are on this page:

http://www.pickpluckmusic.com/mrt/pickup.html

Over all, I like the K&K better than the SM57 (they were placed quite near to each other, as to minimize placement effects), and I like the Radius better than the fishman. #Both pickups would benefit from EQ. #The Radius needs some more presence, and the fishman sounds quite plinky and thin. #The clincher for me is the lack of "rubber band" sound in the Radius, which makes the fishman always difficult to listen to.

Also included by request, are two cuts of the pickups recorded plugged straight into the board. #I think there is quite a thinning of the sound, particularly on the Baggs. #However, it is interesting how much the radius changes with the preamp. #I want to explore the preamp influence at some point. #

I had a cut on the previous thread of a live clip using the radius. #I think my nearby vocal mic and other ambient mics helped to give the pickup some more space. #I also had moved the Radius between then and now.

I plan on doing more tests over the next few weeks, by messing with the placement of the Radius, trying different preamps, and varying the amount of putty used to hold it on. #Let me know if you have any requests for things to try, and I'll make an attempt.

Cheers
Mark RT

[Don Grieser]

Mark, many thanks for taking the time to do this. Love your playing too. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

[Heymate]

What a pleasure!! You are very kind to take the time to do this. I remember back in the mid 70's I lived in London (I'm a Brit) and I ordered a Fender Violin and a Fender Mandolin. The mandolin never materialised, the violin did and I spent a long time trying to eq that brute. I then purchased the one and only (then) pickup for a violin ...a Barcus Berry. I still use that to this day (on a regular violin) Oh btw I used to have an electric Harmony mandolin also with a guitar pickup built in! Sorry about the ramblings...this is a great site and thanks again matey!!!!

[Michael Wolf]

Thanks very much for the test, really interesting. And your playing is very nice too. To my ear the SM57 and the K+K sounds best. The Radius seems to be a bit dull sounding. To be honest, I expected a much better result from the new Baggs. But on the other hand this is a similar impression that I have from my Schertler. This could be a characteristic of soundboard PUs.

[bobbyD]

This is fantastic! Thanks for doing this. It's a great comparison and very helpful. I was leaning more towards the Radius...but now the K&K has caught my ear. How do you attach yours to the mando?
Also, what's the best set up? What I mean is, should I order one with the 1/4" output, or the XLR? Forgive me, but I don't know anything about sound systems. All I know is that when I played guitar at church, I would go from 1/4" to a direct box. What's the best way to do this with the Silver bullet?

[Trip]

Nicely executed comparison...and I enjoyed your style very much...
This just goes to show what we already knew...a good mic always reproduces better than a pickup on a mando...that being said.....the reason that I want a pickup is the concept of not worrying about feedback, or being tied to "A" spot on stage.....I thought all of the recordings sounded good, some better than others in this raw state........but for a live show, with the right EQ and processing the pickups can sound fantastic as well...
I think the pickups have gotten a bad rap by people thinking you can just plug it in and magically have a perfect mando tone....and give up before properly processing the signal

[Mark Robertson-Tessi]

Thanks for all the feedback. #I've definitely found this process interesting, and I'm glad you all think so too. #

Clearly the mics sound better than the pickups. #One has to imagine that that will always be the case. #It's a tall order for a pickup to capture an acoustic sound, since some of a mando's sound happens in the air out front of the instrument. #

However, there are advanages to a pickup, most notably the greatly increased sound levels available to the player. #If I were fortunate enough to always play in concerts where people where quiet, I'd probably not use one. #But when the room gets noisy and volumes get loud, the pickup becomes indispensable. #Of course, by blending with some mic signal, one can acheive a compromise, and generally that's what I run: #I max out the mic first, and then make up the volume difference with the pickup.

So given the necessity of a pickup in some circumstances, I wanted to compare the Radius to the Fishman. #In this first testing step, I didn't make efforts to optimize the sounds of the pickup by trying different preamps or EQ settings, but rather wanted to just see what the pickups were doing, other things being equal. #

So Ive never been truly happy with the sound of the fishman, because there was some unnatural attack to the sound, and the frequencies seemed harsh. #I always would turn the two highest controls on the ProEQ preamp down by 10dB to lessen the plinky rubberband sound, and increase the bass some.

In comparing the pickups against each other, the Radius is definitely a meatier sound, but it also lacks the treble of the fishman. #Still, I tend to prefer a mellower tone, so this is a much better starting point to apply EQ.

Finally, whats missing is the amplification stage. #Once you put these pickups through several hundred watts and add in room ambiance and the like, the pickups can often sound much better than what comes across on the direct recording. #Last night I played a show using just the radius, and I was able to dial in a sound that I never was able to acheive with the fishamn, so I was happy. #I still prefer the mic/pickup blend, but the radius on its own was much more pleasant than using just the fishman.

bobbyd:
The K&K has a little velcro tab on the mic gooseneck. #There is a velcro strip about 1 inch long which I affixed to the side of the mando, on the treble side, and the mic attaches to this. #Then you can twist the gooseneck around to place the mic head where you want.

The XLR option is what I have. #I think it's most useful, since it acts like a direct box. #Just run a mic cable from the XLR out to the mixer, and it works great. #With the 1/4 inch option, I'm guessing you'd need an additional direct box. #

Still, remember that the K&K is a mic, so you will be more prone to feedback than with the pickups, if that's an issue.

Cheers
MRT

[billy parker]

Hey mark, thanks for taking the time to do all the comparisons. #I am going to buy a Baggs to have available when the Silver Bullet is not able to be used. #Also killer playing as always; it would be a pleasure to pick with you sometime. #See you around

[Nolan]

Wow... nice playing!

[steve V. johnson]

Yes, very fine playing indeed!

I started at the top of the list, and before getting to the "nopre" section my pick for a full and natural sound was the SM57, with the K&K+Radius combination a close second.

The attenuated highs of the pickups, and particularly of the Radius alone were quite a surprise. I assume that the Fishman ProEQ II had highs rolled off (as you mention in this latter post, " I always would turn the two highest controls on the ProEQ preamp down by 10dB...") for all the three of the pickup tests, is that correct?

And that "nopre" sections were recroded flat, that is, with no extra EQ at the Mackie mixer? Or was there additional EQ at the mixer on either or both sets of tests? Was there any EQ applied to the microphone tests?

In any case, the "nopre" samples were consistent with sounds that I've come to expect from pickups.

Just for reference, the manual for the Fishman ProEQ II shows these frequencies for each of the controls:

"Bass Control Range +/- 11 db at 60 Hz
+/- 3 db at 350 Hz

"Middle Control Range +/- 8 db at 1.25 kHz
+/- 3 db bandwidth: 1.5kHz

"Treble Control Range +/- 11 db at 10kHz
+/- 3 db at 2.4kHz

"Brilliance Control Range +/- 9 db at 9kHz
+/- 3 db bandwidth: 7kHz"

So, yeah, those Treble and Brilliance controls are pretty high up there.

And you have a very clear understanding of your instrument, how you play and how to get a great sound from this equipment! Thanks very much for the tests, well done!

stv

[mandopete]

Ditto the comments on the playing - very nice indeed!

Are you seeking a microphone for a live sound application only? #It's always been my experience that condenser mic's were just too sensitive for most live sound situations I've been in (bluegrass). #I have been using SM-57's for instruments such as guitar, banjo and mandolin with good success.

We had been using the classic individual mic set up (1 for voice, 1 for the instrument) type set up for the past several years, but now we're switching to a single mic (Shure KSM44) and two "wing" #mics. #I'm torn between using the SM-57's for the wings or potentially seeking something better, like the Oktava's used by John Reischman or perhaps two Peavey 480's that I already have.

Anyways, thanks for doing this, good stuff!

[Mark Robertson-Tessi]

The attenuated highs of the pickups, and particularly of the Radius alone were quite a surprise. #I assume that the Fishman ProEQ II had highs rolled off (as you mention in this latter post, " I always would turn the two highest controls on the ProEQ preamp down by 10dB...") for all the three of the pickup tests, is that correct?

And that "nopre" sections were recroded flat, that is, with no extra EQ at the Mackie mixer? #Or was there additional EQ at the mixer on either or both sets of tests? # Was there any EQ applied to the microphone tests?
stv,
Everything was done flat, actually, on both the preamp and the mixer. I even tried both Fishman Preamps on the radius, just in case one was malfunctioning. No difference. I have to admit that the difference between nopre and pre for the Radius is pretty drastic. The preamp seems do dampen out the highs (again, everything was flat) even though the no-pre radius track shows that they are there. Makes me wonder if it's really the best match. I will be borrowing one of the baggs DI/preamps from a friend to do some tests with it, and I also have the new Baggs acoustic amp on the way, which has two built-in preamps/DI. Once I have those in hand, I'll do some more tests and report.

The microphones were also flat on the mixer. The only processing was changing levels in the computer to try and make things the same volume (no compression or EQ, though.)

mandopete,
I agree about the condensers. On its own, the K&K can't really provide enough feedback-free volume in an environment with background noise. I've yet to try it in a concert situation, so that remains to be seen. Certainly the PA setup has a lot to do with feedback thresholds, so any result is specific to the given situation. I do have some quiet environment concerts coming up in the coming weeks, so i'll try and report on how the equipment fared. Also, I'll be trying the K&K on different instruments to see how versatile it is (I play guitar and zouk in one band).

Cheers
MRT

[steve V. johnson]

Wow, most interesting! Flat all the way... cool. I would have been surprised if there had been any other processing, since you were so meticulous about it all. So, sorry, but I had to ask.

"I have to admit that the difference between nopre and pre for the Radius is pretty drastic. The preamp seems do dampen out the highs..."

Yeah, that's pretty amazing, but the resultant sound is pretty nice, and quite usable, IMO. ... Compared to the SM-57 track...

Thanks very much for the good and informative testing and documentation!! Well done!

stv

[Elliot Luber]

Interesting study. I agree with the findings.

[mando.player]

The Radius without the preamp sounds pretty good. Sure the tone could be tweaked a bit, but personally I think it's better than the Radius with Fishman ProEQ II. The Fishman sounds like it's scooping out a pretty broad freq spectrum. That may not be the case, but it definitely sounds muffled. I'll be curious to hear the Radius coupled with the Baggs PADI.

Regardless, if I were in the market for a pickup I would have a hard time justifying the cost of a Schertler over the Radius.

[c3hammer]

I just came across this one. Pretty great picking!

It would be interesting to see how the DPA 4061 mini mic that Ricky Skaggs and Adam Steffy use live compares to the others tested here. Also the Countryman Isomax II that some have suggested here on the Cafe.

Oh so many combo's to play with and so little money and time http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Cheers,
Pete

[Mark Robertson-Tessi]

It would be interesting to see how the DPA 4061 mini mic that Ricky Skaggs and Adam Steffy use live compares to the others tested here. #Also the Countryman Isomax II that some have suggested here on the Cafe.
Hey, if someone sends me one, I'll be happy to test them out! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Cheers
MRT

[steve V. johnson]

MMMMmmmmmmmmmmm..... DPAs........ Mmmmmmmm!!!!

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif


stv

[Jonas A]

I've gigged crowded pubs using mics but with no success. Direct boxes are rare. My option is to plug into small guitarcombos like Fender Blues Jr. Would that be possible with Radius or Fishman being passive p-u's or would I need a pre-amp? Any othger suggestions? With small, crammed pub-stages you don't have the option for fiddeling with boxes etc. It's just: plug and play.

[johnwalser]

Mark,
Based on the outstanding work that you have so freely shared with us, what sounds good to my ear and my playing preferences, I ordered a LR Baggs Radius pickup and a LR Baggs Para Acoustic DI pre-amp. I hope this allows me to amplify my acoustic sound and get people to stop asking me to "play louder". Also, if you have some free time, visit me here in the High Sierra mountains and teach me to play the mandolin.
John

[fishdawg40]

Great stuff here.

I just started playing out and realized the need for a pick up or mic (something that I've been hesitant about). It seems like I'm gonna go with the LR Baggs pickup. Should I go with their preamp as well? Is there anything less expensive that would work good? Can I take the pickup on and off pretty easily?

Also, can someone explain the use of Mic and pickup at the same time? I think that's what the OP was saying he did on occasion. Thanks everyone...

[mdlorenz]

Def need to get a pre. It helps shape your tone & one like the Baggs Para DI is a parametric so you if you have specific tones that seem to be feeding back you can notch them.

The mic is just to boost volume & get a bit more natural tone. Usually it will be something dynamic (57/58) so it doesn't run much risk of feeding back.I find it to be a pretty good setup for live sound. You have the pickup to cut through when you need it, & with the mic you still have the ability to have some dynamics (stepping closer & further away to get a little louder if you need) & it also helps round out the tone.

[fishdawg40]

Def need to get a pre. It helps shape your tone & one like the Baggs Para DI is a parametric so you if you have specific tones that seem to be feeding back you can notch them.

The mic is just to boost volume & get a bit more natural tone. Usually it will be something dynamic (57/58) so it doesn't run much risk of feeding back.I find it to be a pretty good setup for live sound. You have the pickup to cut through when you need it, & with the mic you still have the ability to have some dynamics (stepping closer & further away to get a little louder if you need) & it also helps round out the tone.
Thanks for that. Is there any other preamp that will work? Is the Baggs Para DI preamp worth its money?

[mdlorenz]

I've only tried the baggs. There are tons of others, soem in the $100-$200 range all the way up to a Pendulum rackmount in the range of $1500-$2000.

That being said, every preamp will work. Some are more specifically geared towards mando... not that the baggs is, in fact it's probably more guitar geared, but it provides controls that make it pretty useful.

[fishdawg40]

I've only tried the baggs. There are tons of others, soem in the $100-$200 range all the way up to a Pendulum rackmount in the range of $1500-$2000.
Thanks. It seems like the $100-$200 is right on for the preamps. I'm assuming the preamp isn't hard to program. I really don;t have the proclivity for that type of stuff, but I'm sure if I monkey with it I'll get the right sound (or close to it).

Now, is the pickup easy to take on and off?

Sorry to hijack this thread but it seems like as good a spot as any to talk about this (and not start another thread about preamps/pickups).

[mdlorenz]

piece of cake to put on & take off. Comes with 2 things of putty that you just press the pickup into the top with. Couldn't be easier.

[fishdawg40]

piece of cake to put on & take off. Comes with 2 things of putty that you just press the pickup into the top with. Couldn't be easier.
Great Mdlorenz! That's what I wanted to hear. You're help is greatly appreciated.

Joe

[Brandon Flynn]

This thread is old, and I just found it, but I wanted to add to the thank yous for taking the time to do this. Very helpful to me, as I know nothing about the difference between pickups and mics. I think I'll have to get a mic, I want the sound to be very good. Thanks a lot!

[Lori]

Hey, thanks for this info!! I just purchased a '96 Flatiron Performer F and had been debating on removing the Fishman from my Mkelly to put on the new baby. Too bad I can't insert a sound here.. ERRRR> Wrong answer! I am going to leave the Fishman where it is or sell it and go with the Baggs Radius. So funny that I was going to start a new topic on this very issue tonight, but thought I'd check the boards just in case.

When plugging in to a system with other instruments on different channels I have learned it always helps to have a good relationship with the sound guy, too. I am married to my sound guy. It really helps:D