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crawdad
Feb-04-2004, 1:58am
Spiritual Journey of Building

This is not a question, per se, but any comments or insight would be great to hear. The board is kinda slow lately, so I thought this was a good time to just toss some thoughts in the ring.

What I wish to talk about is how building interacts with the builder--in this case, myself! In the process, maybe we can identify some things that make one a better craftsman and perhaps we can examine how the act of building makes one a better person.

Last November, I decided that I wanted to build a mandolin--not from a kit, but from scratch. I knew it would be difficult and I went into the project armed with the knowledge that my first would not be perfect. I didn't expect perfection. Instead, I was looking to advance my knowledge and skill. I was also trying to work with my impatient nature and develop more patience and willingness to take all the time needed to do the job right. If I had to rely on kits, I could never gain the confidence to call myself a true luthier.

I bought the old Siminoff book. It had plans and instructions. I bought wood and began the basic processes of making a mold, cutting some wood close to specs, and assembling a bunch of tools that would facilitate some degree of success.

Well, the first thing I learned was that making a carved top mandolin is no weekend project. There are many skills to be learned and each one affects the other in terms of logistics and overall integration between the various components. One mistake can render a whole aspect of the building process useless. I have built three rims and the third is approaching what I call decent, but there is still room to go. My first neck was soon relegated to practice use, My second is better. I want my third to be perfect, but I can only hope it will approach that. Yet, my knowledge of how to make it right grows with each day.

Carving plates is even more of an adventure. You might imagine my first reaction after cutting a piece of hard maple for the back and beginning to try to gouge and chisel it into some kind of shape! My first gouge cut barely scratched the surface--it was like using sandpaper on steel, it seemed. My first reaction was an emotional downturn. I knew it was going to be more time consuming than I thought. I had to reach down deep and muster up a heaping helping of patience. On top of that, the kind weather was shifting to winter and my only workspace was my unheated garage. I could have quit until spring, but somehow I was determined to see this process through. I carved. And carved some more. I made depth templates. I made a thickness guage. I carved and sanded until my fingers were frozen. I would warm up inside and go back out to do more. Somehow, my patience was growing as I adjusted to the idea of the long road I would walk toward the end.

Strangely enough, my mood and mental attitude improved with every days work. I could feel my skills growing stronger, even though I knew I had miles to go. I began to think things through and I wouldn't even attempt a new procedure until I was mentally certain of how to proceed. Every time I learned a new skill or gained a bit of knowledge, it was a small personal win. I suppose this is how the "addiction" to building comes about! I should also mention that I asked a ton of questions here on the board and the responses were always helpful. Just those answers made me appreciate and respect my fellow human beings more and more. Another plus.

Adversity became my friend. There were times when I was moving along and I would make a stupid mistake. It was disheartening but I learned from those mistakes. I developed a willingness to begin anew. After a while, it wasn't so hard to toss something that wasn't right. I chalked it up to experience and considered each failure as a positive lesson. Each time, the next time I started over, I was able to achieve a better result.

One of my weaknesses has always been to go only eight of the nine yards, but after a while, I began to develop the attitude of "whatever it takes and however long it takes". I guess growing up in this everything instantaneously society wears away at ones ability to have patience with anything. Building has begun to restore some of that to my soul and I am so glad. It is the difference between being adequate and being exceptional. Not that I yet consider myself exceptional as a luthier, but, compared to where I started, I have come a long ways. That is gratifying in itself.

I was working on binding a headstock this week and I discovered as I was scraping the binding to fit that my rout was not deep enough. I was going into the black on the while/black/white binding. Before, I would have left it but not now. Today, I pulled all the old binding off and started over! Ah, patience rising. And, what's more, it feels good! The goal has shifted from "get it done' to "do it right" and there is a big difference.

So much more to add. Next time....

Luthier
Feb-04-2004, 5:26am
Ah my good friend, now you have truly opened a golden can of worms. #It really is a very great feeling to use your hands, your mind, and your heart, (maybe a clamp here and there) and turn a downed tree into something that creates music. #There is great satisfaction in creating an instrument, putting on the first string, tuning it up to pitch, and striking it for the first time. The ills of the world seem to stop for a little while and a feeling of pride is the only thing there. You have it.
It is my goal to take people to the gate of "luthier addiction" and lead them in. #It is a very cool place. #(it can get expensive though). #Learn from the mistakes. #Make them twice if you have to. #(Make them a third time and we really need to talk.) #A good builder, in my eyes, does put their entire being into every instrument they build,whether it is the first one or the last one. #
(nice thread crawdad, I like it)

Don

Guitdolin
Feb-04-2004, 10:43am
Jesus grew up working with wood....something to that, I imagine. Probably would have built mandolins if Bluegrass had been invented then.

BTW, when He decided to gather some helpers, who did he go to first? Fishermen. I'm sure they'd have been flyfishermen if they'd have known about the sport too! As Norman Blake said in "A River Runs Through It", probably dry fly fishermen. They'd have tied their own flies and built their own rods too. There's just something about crafting your own stuff....

John Bertotti
Feb-04-2004, 11:02am
You really are touching on the spiritual. It is the same for any endeavor. The focus and the honing of skill, it is a meditative process. I hear similar realizations from my martial arts students who, out of the blue, touch that higher level. You will really be amazed when it starts to impact everything you do, not just your building, and you realize it. John http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

Chris Baird
Feb-04-2004, 11:37am
Great post Crawdad. Very well articulated. Certainly the improvements one makes in ones character are the real gifts of building; the mandolins are just the cherry on the cake. Patience, a super heightened stated of awarness to sublties, perseverence, and determination are just a few of the things you must learn to succeed in building. The real blessing comes when you learn to transfer these lessons from building to friendships and family life. When one concentrates on building something beautiful only good can come from it whether that be a mandolin or a marriage, friendship, etc..

crawdad
Feb-04-2004, 3:46pm
Wow! I didn't know if I'd get a response, but the replies are all fantastic and insightful. You have all made me think and reflect even more.

On one end lies the goal of perfection. On the other side stands a builder. Certainly, skills can be gained over time but there seems to be more to it than that. When I started building, the first thing that I ran into was my own character. There were a lot of things I had to confront--my tendency to rush, my impatience, my fear and lack of confidence, and flaws in my ability to observe--in the present moment--what was going on in front of my face. (Bad thing, especially using power toos!)

I'd love to tell you that I have gained mastery over all my flaws, but that would be a lie. I have become better at dealing with them. Slowly, I whittle away at them like a plate or new neck. In the process, it is me that is getting changed.

As many of you mentioned, those changes begin to affect and impact your life in all areas--not just building. I am beginning to think that making mandolins would be excellent therapy for anyone interested in improving their inner nature.

Its given me a new and deep appreciation for those of you who have "scaled the walls" and have arrrived at the place where you are, at least, as close to perfection as God allows. What wonderful people you must all be. Thanks for the help and encouragement.

John Zimm
Feb-04-2004, 5:26pm
On one end lies the goal of perfection. On the other side stands a builder. Certainly, skills can be gained over time but there seems to be more to it than that. When I started building, the first thing that I ran into was my own character. There were a lot of things I had to confront--my tendency to rush, my impatience, my fear and lack of confidence, and flaws in my ability to observe--in the present moment--what was going on in front of my face. (Bad thing, especially using power toos!)

I am thankful to hear that there are others sharing these kinds of problems. Recently I have all but abandoned my attempt to make an octave mandola, mainly because I am so impatient that I don't like spending entire evenings working on something and not seeing much progress.

One thing I have learned is that my original purpose for making a mandola was flawed. I wanted to make an instrument for less money than it would take to buy one. This started off my project with the mission of completing it and not thinking of what kind of craftsmanship I pout into the instrument. I also have found, like you Crawdad, that it takes knowledge of many different skills in order to build an instrument. Who would have thought that I would spend so much time reading a book called The Handplane Book?

So, I am still plugging away, and I am thankful for your thoughts Crawdad. It is good to know there are others having the same kinds of experiences.

-John.

mcmando
Feb-04-2004, 5:44pm
The original post kind of reminds me of some things from a book that I read years ago-- Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance by Robert Pirsig-- things about "quality" and "gumption". But then again, the protagonist in the story was in the process of recovering from shock therapy administered in an effort to resolve psychosis... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Luthery as therapy! What a concept! $150 per hour would help luthiers make ends meet, huh?

crawdad
Feb-04-2004, 5:48pm
[QUOTE= ] #Who would have thought that I would spend so much time reading a book called The Handplane Book? #

So, I am still plugging away, and I am thankful for your thoughts Crawdad. #It is good to know there are others having the same kinds of experiences.

-John.

I couldn't help but smile at that one! I got Leonard Lee's Sharpening book and was amazed with all the things I didn't know. #That led to better chisels, Japanese waterstones, honing supplies, etc. If I added up all the tools I have purchased, I could easily buy a $1000+ mandolin. If I added up all the hours of labor to that, probably a $5000 mando.

Ah, but here's the rub: the knowledge and skills I have attained in this little journey are worth more to me than any instrument at any price. Its been like a college course and investing in yourself is worth more than any other thing you can do. The day will come when I can turn out instruments that I can be very proud of. I can't even put a price on that. #Might even sell some instruments down the road to help make ends meet in my old age.

Plus, the experience will make you either grow personally or give up. Take joy in those bits of progress, no matter how small. Building a mandolin is chock full of tiny details that matter once the pieces comes together. Every step makes you that much better. The first one takes so long because we have to learn so much at each turn. It gets easier after a while because the next time you approach a task, you come armed with knowledge that you didn't have the first time. Forge on, John!
[

sunburst
Feb-04-2004, 6:06pm
Just a couple of comments.
I don't want to fault anyone for using the words "perfect" and "perfection", but I would like to remind my fellow perfectionists that perfection does not exist. As an admitted perfectionist I know that if I strive for perfection I'll never get there and I'll be constantly frustrated. If instead I strive for excellence, I have an attainable goal and always room to improve.
I often hear someone spoken of as a perfectionist as though it were an admirable characteristic, when in fact it often is not. If I did not intentionally temper my perfectionist tendencies, I would spend more and more time on a task trying to reach perfection and probably give up because I could not get there.
The word perfectionist is often missused, and unless you are a perfectionist,you probably don't know what it is like.
So, this has been part of my spiritual journey in building. To find the perfectionist in myself and learn to live with him and keep him under control.

EasyEd
Feb-04-2004, 8:28pm
Hey All,

Crawdad - great post!! I too suffer from as you wrote "There were a lot of things I had to confront--my tendency to rush, my impatience, my fear and lack of confidence, and flaws in my ability to observe--in the present moment--what was going on in front of my face."

I've never buit a mando probably never will but you have touched on very fundamental truths that I believe are common in all our lives - if one is lucky enough to realize it.

I started to learn these things the first time I tried (an did) replace the brakes on a 66 Mustang I once had (NEVER shoulda sold that car!). Took the brakes apart on all four wheels an so had no model for how they go back together. A two hour job took the better part of two days but I learned volumes about myself.

Next a 48 case tractor with a sickle bar mower that kept breakin a pittman arm (a 2in by 2in 4ft long piece of oak shaped to fit the mower). I bought two arms before realizin I could make them myself... The sweet feel of success.

Next an early 60s rototiller (my father-in-laws) with I swear the most stubborn startin 5hp motor ever. Yet when I win an a 30ft by 120ft garden is tilled... An keepin a 20 year old ridin mower goin...

These things teach patience and how to live in the moment and build confidence... Yet it is still a struggle. I currently have $900 US in golf club components waitin for me to put them together. The issue is the components are plenty good enough - but am I. I don't want to screw up. However I will do it.

It doesn't - in the end - matter whether you are building mandolins, golf clubs, changin brakes or carvin Pittman arms the confidence and competence derived from doing (succeeding or not) is a fundamental that I believe crosses everyones life and our society is - for the most part - I believe cheating many people from an important part of truly living. Many things that we call progress (eliminating human labor) - aren't.

Just my $0.02CAN - an maybe I will try makin a mando sometime.

Take Care! -Ed-

crawdad
Feb-05-2004, 12:31am
mcmando--I've read Pirsig's book four times since it came out and its always refreshing and enlightening. It applies to building in many ways. When he compares surface beauty and underlying form, it reminds me how people will look at a finished instrument in different ways. A player might respond most to the finish or the inlay or the sound, where a builder might focus more on the structure and how well it is executed. Yet both are related and important. In the book, the narrator did have a breakdown trying to define "Quality" which brings me to...

Sunburst- Your points about perfection are excellent ones. I alluded to the same thing by saying "as close as God allows." I think we can get close, but even on CNC machines that have minute tolerances, each instrument will be slightly different. Striving for consistency and overall excellence IS different than aiming for perfection, and I know just what you mean about keeping the perfectionist in you under control! There has to come a time when you say, "That is right and its as good as I can do." Maybe the next time it will be even better, but you can't ruin the experience by always feeling like you have failed to reach an impossible goal.

I think it was the Amish that used to put a mark or intentional flaw in their finished craftsmanship. Why? They said, "Because only God is perfect."

Finally...

EasyEd--You are so right. Learning to do anything for yourself increases how much you can be at cause over your environment. Long before mandolin building, I owned a bunch of VW's and I had that book, "How To Keep Your Volkswagen Running Forever." I did brakes, valves, timing, changed fenders and all kinds of other stuff. As long as I had a VW, I felt like I could keep myself on the road. With the advent of computerized cars, that era is sadly passing.

When I spent time doing repairs at a music store, I was shocked by some of the guitar "problems" people would bring to me. Simple things that anybody could fix if they took ten minutes to look. People would bring me guitars to be restrung because they didn't know how, so I would insist on teaching them how its done right then and there. Its all too common an attitude--this "I'll just take it to an expert" mentality. Some people don't want to get involved with their possessions and maybe they should more often. One should at least know how keep the tools of ones trade up to snuff. DIY is a very positive thing.

Michael Lewis
Feb-05-2004, 12:35am
Crawdad, great facility with putting the learning process/experience into words. Most people going through what you have just been through don't realize just what is going on within themselves, but you seem to have a perspective and insight not only of the process of making the instrument but also what is happening within yourself. Good on ya! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

crawdad
Feb-05-2004, 1:03am
Crawdad, great facility with putting the learning process/experience into words. #Most people going through what you have just been through don't realize just what is going on within themselves, but you seem to have a perspective and insight not only of the process of making the instrument but also what is happening within yourself. #Good on ya! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Michael--thats just the kind of thought processes one begins to have in their 50's as everything slows down enough so you can see what is going on! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif #But thank you.

By the way folks, if you have never checked out Michael's work, do so--he's world class and a true inspiration.

John Zimm
Feb-05-2004, 9:28am
By the way folks, if you have never checked out Michael's work, do so--he's world class and a true inspiration.

I admit, I have spent a fair amount of time admiring pictures of Mr. Lewis' work on his website. If those instruments sound half as beautiful as they look they must be some of the best available.


Plus, the experience will make you either grow personally or give up. Take joy in those bits of progress, no matter how small. Building a mandolin is chock full of tiny details that matter once the pieces comes together. Every step makes you that much better. The first one takes so long because we have to learn so much at each turn. It gets easier after a while because the next time you approach a task, you come armed with knowledge that you didn't have the first time. Forge on, John!
Will do. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif One thing I have to learn, that I have actually learned to accept when practicing the guitar or mandolin, is that when I reach those frustrating times when it seems like nothing is going right, I am usually learning something very important for me. I remember spending hours trying to perfect the tremolo on the guitar, giving up countless times, but perservering and finally getting it down. Hopefully the same things happens with building.

On that note, I think I am going to do a little planing tonight. Gotta get that mandola back to the point where I can be happy with it. Thanks again for bringing up the topic Crawdad. You rock.

-John.

Brier
Feb-05-2004, 7:33pm
crawdad,

Well put! You shape the Mandolin and the Mandolin shapes you.

GaryM
Feb-05-2004, 9:39pm
It's very good to see all the insightful posts on this thread. Thanks for this one Crawdad.
From the first time I read your post I wanted to jump in and say something, ANYTHING!
Problem was I somehow didn't feel worthy to jump in. I'm even hesitant to admit I've started building. However, what little I have done so far has been extremely rewarding. I'm moving at a snails pace. Enjoying the time spent puttering...doing one preparation or another. The whole process growing before my family and me has (even at this early stage) been wonderful. My father who is 84 decided to pass his carving tools to me now that he doesn't use them anymore. He pointed out his "Main carving knife" to me. That one is set out on my bench now for whatever use I can find for it. It worked great for "etching" the plans onto the Plexiglas. Most everything has been put together with scraps so far. Just taking my time buying what little I need as the need arises. Still haven't thought of a name for the headstock. Possibly "Clunker".
When I first mentioned building my kids rolled their eyes. Now they think I just might be able to pull it off! Now THAT’S a spiritual journey.
Thanks again Crawdad.

Brookside
Feb-05-2004, 10:51pm
I began at just the same time with just the same intent as you did, crawdad; to build from scratch. Never built a thing in my life. I'll share with you a turning point I had in December.

I was about two weeks into my first mandolin. I had started with the body and things were going well. I made a very stupid error on the neck. (so stupid I'm not even going to say what it was) I was sitting in a pile of sawdust, clutching my ruined neck and looking around my basement at all the crap I had bought to work on my new hobby. I had pretty much decided to quit, simpley because I wasn't having any fun. I spent a good fifteen minutes just sitting there thinking. I didn't want to go upstairs and tell my girlfriend (a member of the eye-rollers club) that I stink at it and I'm finished. I was grasping for one last reason to continue. As I was looking around at my pig sty of a basement it occurred to me. When they rolled in my new bandsaw, I set it up where they dropped it. I had only a lawn chair to sit in. I had wood scattered about and leaning against the walls. The lighting was terrible. I was 4 feet away from a pile of dirty laundry. In my eagerness to begin, I had never set up MY SHOP! I had never created that magical place I had dreamed of where I could escape from the world and find peace and serenity while creating something amazing from almost nothing. No wonder I wasn't having any fun in this god-forsaken, filthy basment. And no wonder I was screwing up my work. My goal had been just to finish it so I could get the hell out of there.

I spent the rest of that weekend setting up my shop. I would not continue with my mandolin until this basement was a place where I would want to spend time. That magical place exists now. I'm certain that my work has improved as a result. Not just because I'm more organized, but because I'm happy to be there. In short, spending time in my shop became my reason for building.

I'll be finished with my first F5 soon. Stay tuned for pictures of a Stuart Hall #001.

crawdad
Feb-05-2004, 11:58pm
All these replies and stories are fantastic! I hope the stories keep coming and maybe this will be a thread for all those first time builders. My guess is that even the best builders in the world have tales of the neck they cut wrong or the plate they split. The thing is, its not a race. Making a mandolin, or anything for that matter, should be about enjoying the process as it unfolds. If we trash a top or a a rim, its just the Universe trying to tell us that we need to try some thing different. The wood doesn't care--it will do whatever skilled hands ask of it. Sometimes the failures are the most valuable experiences. They hurt, but its that hurt that helps us learn and become able to move forward.

If I didn't enjoy the process, I couldn't do this. Its sometimes slow and tedious work, but I find joy in seeing how a grain pattern emerges or how a form takes shape. I like problem solving--looking at where I am and figuring out what exactly needs to be done. I like seeing rough wood get shaped and sanded smooth. Then, when the finish goes on, thats an incredible payoff. Eventually, my F5 will be complete. I will start another soon after, just because the first one gave me so much new knowledge that I'm positive the second will be better.

I agree with getting the shop in order too, and that includes getting all the tools organized and well sharpened. Having good light is important. All the rest is bringing a good attitude into that shop. I have developed a habit of asking myself what will happen if I attempt to do something--before I go ahead. I've saved some work that way!

All this talk has me itching to get back to the shop! I've got a fingerboard to glue...

Yonkle
Feb-11-2004, 12:49am
Yes, this is a very good topic. Some of the stuff I have read cracks me up, I thought maybe I was just a bit anal-mando, but I guess I am Ok. The gentleman who wrote about his basement, when he wrote about his girlfriend being an "eyeroller" I knew and could see the eye roll in my mind because I have gotten it several times from my wife. I am only on my 3rd Mandolin, I told myself a year and a 1/2 ago "I just want to build 1 mandolin and do it right", so I talked my wife into the money for the tools, wood, binding, tuners, inlay, ect. and started with a Stewmac A5, I was real proud it actually played when it was done. That is one of the things I like about building a mandolin, when I am spending hours and hours on one little piece of button binding or one little groove to make the Inlay sit right, sometime thoughts go through my head like "why am I trying to get this so perfect?" "WHat if it does'nt play?" "all this is for nothing.....maybe! Maybe not! That to me is the "Spiritual part of it, having faith in your work, knowing you could screw up major at anytime and have to start over, or think you have it all perfect only to find later you don't. So the not knowing and the mystery of the final product makes me think a lot as I am working. After my A5 was done and I learned a few tunes, then I got the building bug again and then "I just want a perfect F5!" So it happened again, but again the F5 came out much better than the A5, looks, sounds and plays much better, but now that I have played a bit and played a few different models, I know where my F5 is lacking, and what I did wrong and how I could do better. So I am NOW on my F5 #3 and when I told my wife I just want one more and this one will be right......I got the infamous "EyeRoll" again, but in all honesty she knows I love it and it keeps me out of trouble so she is OK with this hobbie/art.
Thanks for all the readings keep them coming! Yonkle http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

crawdad
Feb-11-2004, 2:24am
I think you have to become "anal" or maybe obsessed is a better word--I don't know. There is no way you learn it all by making one mandolin. As soon as the first is done, you know you can do better. Thing is--this is a very intricate and detailed piece of woodworking no matter what kind of mandolin you are making. As you progress, standards begin to rise and skills begin to grow. You make a mistake and you think, "Next time, I will know how to avoid that one!"

It adds up to an addictive process, with the goal being making one that is really "right". Then, probably making more, maybe even better than "right".

I know what that sinking and helpless feeling is when you screw up. I've been there three times, but I have continued on and each failure has taught me volumes. Like anything in life, you grow by doing.

Fortunately, I have a loving and understanding wife. One day, I came home and told her I was going to put a shop together and perfect my craftsmanship in woodworking. She looked horrified, thinking I would be giving up all we rely on to survive. I assured her that I wouldn't abandon the family in the process. Next thing I knew, the shop had a bunch of new tools and a pile of cool wood.Its been great and I have found a peace of mind I have missed for years. Working with wood comforts me--even when I make a mess of things. I am determined, anal, compulsive and obsessed--and thats all good. Just like learning to play an instrument, you learn to build one lick at a time and practice is your best friend. Eventually, you develop that faith that you can be this person who can get it right. For me, its all very worthwhile.

John Zimm
Feb-11-2004, 9:00am
It is funny that this is a current topic right now, because I have recently run out of patience with my project. I have been forced to go back and reevaluate the reasons I wanted to make an instrument in the first place. I wanted a mandola for less than what I would have to pay for a new one, but with the hours I have invested and the little I have to show for it, that reason has run out of currency for me. In fact, I am at a crossroads in the process and I have to decide whether I want to invest in a few things to make my life easier if I want to continue building, or maybe I just want to scrap the whole thing and just concentrate on playing the mandolin. I probably would have canned the whole thing the other day if it weren't for some encouragment I got from Luthier, aka Don.

Anyway, the pieces of the mandola still sit in the back room and hopefully will one day be finished into a playable instrument, but for the time being I think I need to reconsider a few things. The replies to this topic sure have been great to read. Thanks again Crawdad.

-John.

sunburst
Feb-11-2004, 6:27pm
I told my wife I just want one more and this one will be right......
Yonkle,
Every time I build a mandolin I think: "next time I'll get it right".
I'm pretty sure I'll always feel that way unless I keep building 'til I'm too old to improve. Even then I'll probably think I can do better, or else I wouldn't keep trying.

Michael Lewis
Feb-12-2004, 2:14am
Making instruments, especially F style, is not for everyone. Some of us have a talent for it and some of us don't, just like playing music. The journey is demanding, frustrating at times, and also rewarding. The reflection that has taken place in this thread is an indication of future success. As difficult as it is to get going it gets both easier and more difficult as one progresses. The reason it gets more difficult is that you learn that you can do better and better, and that takes more concentration and effort.

Enjoy the trip. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Luthier
Feb-12-2004, 4:46am
Hence, another reason I get ticked off that "shop" has been taken out of many schools. #A beam of light came down on me in 7th grade when I planed my first piece of wood. #My spiritual experience happened early and many roads took me away from it but I was finally able to venture back onto the path. #It is a shame many kids today are not even given the chance to be introduced to such things because of the "mindset" that all must be able to be led down the path of "academia" and if they pick up a hobby like woodworking in their spare time, all well and good. #I think it is wrong. Try and find a college that teaches "Industrial Arts". #They are no longer there. #It takes knowledge, time, money, tools and a desire to build. #Whether it is a copy of a Queen Anne Highboy or a Loyd Loar. #If you have the desire to build, don't lose it but place it on the back burner. I had a whole woodshop available to me in college which made things much easier. #I can not imagine pursuing the craft without the tools needed whether they are power or hand tools. #This has been an excellent thread, crawdad, and you have hit a nerve in all of us and like I said a long while back..."opened a golden can of worms"

Don

John Zimm
Feb-12-2004, 10:35am
It is a shame many kids today are not even given the chance to be introduced to such things because of the "mindset" that all must be able to be led down the path of "academia" and if they pick up a hobby like woodworking in their spare time, all well and good.
I couldn't agree with you more. #I am certain that the beautiful instruments the builders at this forum are making will far outlast the little theories, books, and associated bric a brac coming out of academia. #I work in an academic environment, and I feel qualified to say that the problem was described well in Dostoyevsky's Notes from the Underground. #There is the man of nature who does things and accomplishes tasks, and there is the intellectual who is led to inertia because he needs to possess full knowledge and understanding of something in order to begin anything. #I think we all know it is impossible to obtain full knowledge of building before actually trying to build an instrument.

I am a paid historian, but I believe woodworking is just as important, useful, expressive, and needed for a person's development as any historical work. #In some ways, it is more important. #

-John.

Chris Baird
Feb-12-2004, 12:09pm
"There is the man of nature who does things and accomplishes tasks, and there is the intellectual who is led to inertia because he needs to possess full knowledge and understanding of something in order to begin anything. I think we all know it is impossible to obtain full knowledge of building before actually trying to build an instrument."

That is a good point. I am just now learning to sort of let go, or at least lighten up on my desire to know how mandolins work. I swear I spend at least as much time tapping and flexing and otherwise testing as I do actually building. Think I need to just build.

Dru Lee Parsec
Feb-12-2004, 12:22pm
It is a shame many kids today are not even given the chance to be introduced to such things because of the "mindset" that all must be able to be led down the path of "academia"

You know what, I'm a software engineer who just learned that my company will be outsourcing our jobs to India in the next year or two. So even though I did all the "right" things (went to college, got my degrees, worked my way up the ladder, etc.) I now have to figure out what I'm going to do in a job market where all the tech jobs are disapearing.

However, I also started doing woodworking about 10 years ago and started building instruments a few years ago. I actually studied guitar building with John Long and Bob Mattingly over 20 years ago and just never had the time, tools, or location to do it. No matter how stressed out my day has been when I walk into my shop I'm pretty calm. I would love to build my instrument business to a point where I could survive on that income. It would be such a change to make my living doing something that actually makes me happy! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I guess the irony is that my high paying hi-tech job is leaving the country and my hand tool skills and love of music and instrument building may be the very thing that saves me financially. If I didn't spend the past 8 or 10 years honeing those woodworking skills I wouldn't have a backup plan as I do now. That alone seems like a darn good reason to "cross teach" both academic skills as well as "shop" skills.

Here's another interesting bit of information: I'm a member of the San Diego Fine Woodworking Association. Taylor guitars, one of the largest guitar factories in the world, is in El Cajon just east of San Diego. A representative from Taylor came to our meeting to ask if anyone knew of of kids graduating from high school or college that had "basic shop skills". The lack of shop classes in schools has made it really difficult to find workers for their factory that have any idea how to use tools. Imagine that, a company that has good jobs available (entry level and up ) and they can't find people with the basic skills to fill them. And yes, if I could pay my mortagage with what they pay then I'd take one of those jobs myself. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif The factory is only 4 miles from my house. I could ride a bike to work, build their guitars, ride my bike home, and build my own instruments. Not a bad life really.

crawdad
Feb-12-2004, 12:31pm
I too think its a crime that woodshop has been yanked from the public schools. The modern thinking seems to be that sports alone are the way to personal growth or something. Also, that same thinking figures that mass manufacturing has taken the place of fine craftsmanship--like who needs a one man shop when we can build a factory to do the "same" thing in bulk quatities. Only its not the same at all, is it? Woodworking ought to be right there along with all the other fine arts because thats what it is. It is a disciplne that improves one's character and one's approach to life.
My son never had shop in school. The other day he was home from college and he saw me working on an electric mandolin. With real hungry enthusiasm he said, "Dad, I really want to learn how to do that." I know its gonna change his life. My great grandfather and grandfather were both master cabinetmakers, so maybe through me, my son will keep that tradition alive in some form. It seems such a shame that he has never had the experience of building anything in a shop. Not everybody can be a quarterback--there are other paths in the world.

Buckley--You hit the nail on the head. There is no way to learn building without getting your hands on. All the knowledge one might read means little until it is applied. It's only then that the real learning begins. On another note, let that project rest for a bit until it calls you back. I just finished a guitar neck that I started almost five years ago! I lost interest in it and it sat patiently. It turned out great, by the way--beautiful flamed maple--I had no idea how fine this wood was.

Michael Lewis--You touched on something, saying it gets easier and harder as you develop. I see that totally. As building standards rise, the levels get finer--which means more work. I have the sneaking suspicion that its an infinite process with no end. Kind of a good metaphor for life in general...

sunburst
Feb-12-2004, 12:59pm
I grew up in the country, rode the school bus, and saw the "older" kids taking home their projects from shop class. I couldn't wait for shop class! I knew I would love those projects!
Well, it wasn't to be. I was too "smart". College bound. Biology and chemistry were important, not wood shop.
I eventually got a degree in biology, but I graduated in the midst of a recession and jobs were not to be found, so I guess the quirks of the economic system have a lot to do with me becoming a "professional" lutheir.
It feels more like a calling than a choice. It is no way to get rich, but hand made instruments still have a market, and instrument repair is a job that is not likely to be outsourced off shore.

Crowder
Feb-12-2004, 9:43pm
The original post kind of reminds me of some things from a book that I read years ago-- Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance by Robert Pirsig-- things about "quality" and "gumption". #But then again, the protagonist in the story was in the process of recovering from shock therapy administered in an effort to resolve psychosis... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Pirsig wrote two books. In sum, these took him something like 30 years to complete. Then, he killed himself. Beware the pursuit of perfection.

crawdad
Feb-12-2004, 10:43pm
Crowder--your point is well taken, but I'd just like to clear up the fact that Robert Pirsig did not kill himself. He is alive and working on various projects.

Luthier
Feb-13-2004, 7:02am
You people are really giving me the drive now to open my own Woodworking/Luthier school. #....soon....got a ways to go before I retire though. #Perhaps before I leave they will come around and see the advantage of Industrial Arts. #Heck it embodied math, reading, and other skills.
It wasn't broken but someone thought they would try and fix it. #This is why I love doing the Workshops at Front Royal. #It is the closest I can come to right now to a Luthier school of my own.

Don

bullrun6
Feb-13-2004, 11:12am
I noticed this thread when it first began but didn't start reading it till this morning...wow, this really captures much of what I've been going through lately. I have built three flat top mandolins, all of which have turned out well (thanks to getting a good start at Don's workshop). I finally felt ready to start an F5 from scratch, I couldn't wait to get it done. Well that has turned out to be the problem, I am so anxious to see the finished product that I catch myself rushing which has proved to be the cause of several mistakes. I didn't really realize just how impatient I was until I started working on this project. What a difference that realization has made, not just in my building but in the way I see myself and my family.

All of this self evaluation has been very helpful and has made me straighten out my priorities. In fact just yesterday I decided to turn down a full scholarship to work on my masters degree because I decided that it would interfere too much with my family time and my mandolin building! The whole time I was thinking about it I felt guilty and that maybe I was being lazy but now that the decision is made I know that it was the right one. This has inspired me to head off to the cold garage and straighten out the mess, now if I could just get that shop set up I could really start getting things done...oops, there I go again......

Patrick

John Zimm
Feb-13-2004, 11:37am
Patrick,

I'm glad to hear that I am not the only one here who has turned his back on grad school. I was all set to get my advanced book learnin' at UT-Knoxville, but a satisfying family life is much more rewarding than historical scholarship, in my book anyway.

Don-if ever you decide to open your own luthier school, keep us posted. I could use many classes. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Woodshop seems to be a very interdisciplinary course. I imagine some don't see the need for it because it combines intillectual effort with practical application. I think, and this is only my cynical opinion, that there are a whole lot of people who profit from keeping thoughts and actions separated. How else can people decieve kids that they need to go to college in order to have a future.

-John.

crawdad
Feb-13-2004, 1:42pm
Its funny--I keep telling my wife that building an F5 is like taking college courses in woodworking, manufacturing techniques and self discipline! And its true. I'm still learning and that keeps it exciting.

I think a person can learn anything with desire, purpose and access to good information. A good teacher can help too. I always saw college as a means of broadening my horizons. It never was leading me to a career, so, after 3 1/2 years, I became a full time musician and never looked back. Whether college is needed is an argument I don't want to get into, because it depends on the person and what his/her purposes and desires are.

For me, the shop is definitely a place where I find peace and my center. Its nice to hear others who've discovered the same thing.

Bluemando
Feb-16-2004, 9:58am
Thats it, this post was the last bit of encouragement that I needed. After reading crawdad's post I decided to build rather than purchase my next mando, and sent stew-mac almost $1000 to get started. I have always loved working with wood and have always had to supress my impatience while doing so. I can already feel the impatience welling up inside as I wait for the mailman to deliver my goods.
I hope I am up to the task, I will soon find out.
Thank you, Crawdad, for sharing your story. It's a true inspiration.

John Zimm
Feb-16-2004, 10:12am
Best of luck to you Bluemando. I have heard it said at this board that if you do it right you can end up with a fine instrument from the Stewmac kits. Just c'mon back here often if ever you need encouragment. I hope the project goes well.

I have to say thanks to Don, aka Luthier, for helping me recently. He has been preparing some wood for me since I lack the tools and the expertise, and has really helped keep my project going. We all need a helping hand from time to time, and Don has been more than helpful. Having taken time to rethink the project, I am now viewing this first mandola as a means to learn woodworking better and to develop skills that will make my # 2 mandola even better. Hopefully my number 1 mandola doesn't turn out like number 2 (sorry, a little toilet humor there).

-John.

crawdad
Feb-16-2004, 5:21pm
Bluemando--Cool! Glad to be an inspiration of sorts. Right now, I'm gonna tell you something before you get started. Around 90% of mandolin building is in small and detailed work. Don't think in terms of getting it all together quick. Break down each separate task as a separate event and envision exactly how you want each element to look. Take plenty of time--don't rush. In the end you will be very glad. Its many very small, detailed operations that all take time to do right. As each part of the process gets done, the mando is getting closer to finished, even when its sitting around in pieces. I guess I'm saying this: you almost want to forget about the big picture and concentrate on the little things because thats where you will spend most of your time. Of course, check the big picture too--fit and finish and all that.

I went to Elderly Instruments today and spent a couple of hours just LOOKING at A's and F's from different builders, The craftsmanship of all the instruments was impeccable. Such results are the product of great patience and attention to detail. These guys had to slow way down and get meticulous to do perfect bindings, inlays and finishing. Ah, but any of us would be proud to say we made one of these instruments. I think that comes about from developing the right attitude--attention to detail and taking all the time in the world if need be to do it right the first time.

Hey Buckley--Don is da man! I like everything you said too.

Flowerpot
Feb-16-2004, 8:34pm
I can't hold back any longer, now that the ice is broken here. I am one of those who is "not worthy" to call myself a builder, yet, especially here in the company of so many luthiers I admire. But now that my first F5 is nearly ready for stringing up in the white, which means I'm getting somewhere, and reading these posts has helped me figure out why I feel compelled to build.

I started building an F5 back in '93 or so, partially to have a decent instrument but also to work and converse with my father in law, who was retired and building dobros. He build some nice ones, and the one my wife plays has a sound like no other I've heard. My wife and I would help out with certain tasks if he was falling behind a promised delivery date; a lacquer finish here, a fingerboard inlay there. I enjoyed starting the mandolin and was able to learn some good techniques in his workshop, but I lost interest after obtaining a nice custom built mandolin. After all, I wanted to spend my time making music instead of making sawdust, and the mandolin pieces went on the shelf. Then things got hectic as I was laid off and went on a job hunt, and the partially carved top and back and one piece of bent side wood went in a box to wait for a better time. Then during the job hunt, the day after I received an excellent job offer far away -- my father in law died. To say it was a terrible blow would be understatement. We packed up most of his tools and they went with us, along with the box of mandolin parts, 2000 miles away. For a long while it was too hard to think about opening the boxes.

After moving, I still wasn't driven to do much with the mandolin I was "building." It wasn't until my wife and I had our first children -- twin boy and girl -- that I started thinking much about the workshop. When they reached about a year old and would get excited when I'd get out my mandolin to play and sing for them, I started to get the building bug. I began to get the workshop in order, small and crowded but workable, and started unboxing the tools. It took a while, as I only had - and still have - a half hour or hour at the end of the day when the babies are asleep, bottles are washed, and I could get away. As I began setting up the tools, I came upon box after box of things from my father in law; unused inlays with his name in script, hand-drawn templates for fret spacing, wood, bone, pearl, Dremel accessories and the like. It was very emotional to see all those things again, and to remember the plans he had made for the next dobros he wanted to build, but never got the chance to. It was about then that I started feeling a drive to build something that I could pass on. Something that my kids can tell their kids "your Grandpa made this mandolin." And be able to feel the connection from one generation to the next. Now it's like a magnet, and any spare couple of minutes I'm out there working on the next piece. But it's so peaceful out there, and it's easy to feel like my father in law is right there watching -- and commenting -- "you're breaking the carninal rule; you shouldn't be sanding without a block" (he could be blunt but he was rarely wrong).

The other part of the "drive" to build is that in my day job, I spend 8 hours a day making a product that will last for 5 years on average, at most 10 years (integrated circuits get outdated pretty quickly). In some ways it seems like I'm making fodder for next year's landfill. But out in the workshop, it's different. If I build a mandolin right, it will be there long after I'm gone. Maybe if I'm lucky, one of my kids will play something I build and be making music with it for their kids, right along with one of my father-in-laws dobros. It's a nice dream.

I haven't forgot to "connect" my own side of the family to the building gig -- my father, a retired machinist, has been making me things like a drill template for the peghead holes and other jigs, and has helped me lots of times with mando #1. And if something goes well while my Mom and Dad are visiting, I run inside to show Dad the latest accomplishment, like an eager kid -- I guess some things never change.

Brookside
Feb-16-2004, 9:52pm
You touched on something I was just thinking about last night. There is no single tangible object that I've ever produced in my life which has any chance of surviving for 100 years. It really struck me when I realized an instument I build could indeed survive that long. I have no illusions that it/they would be hailed as a great masterpiece but perhaps someone would have one around and appreciate it. Perhaps they would even think of me for a moment when they look into the body and see my date and signature. I cannot for myself, think of a better lagacy to leave than a carfully crafted instrument that I poured my heart and soul into.

crawdad
Feb-16-2004, 10:25pm
Flowerpot--I'm sitting here wiping tears from my eyes after your post. (yeah, they all probably think I'm the "loose cannon" of the building forum, LOL!) Your story really hit home in a number of ways. There are two gentlemen in my life who've passed away and left their mark. One was my father in law and the other was my grandfather. I use tools they both passed on to me.

Late last year, my grandmother passed away and I made the trip to California for the funeral. We all stayed at her house, which was built by my grandfather. His workbenches were all there and I had the task of sorting through the old tools. In the week I was there, I spent many hours in that garage workshop and thought a lot about my grandfather, who was a master cabinetmaker. I recalled many of the woodworking tips he taught me and just being there brought so much of his spirit back. I began having the urge to build instruments again. It was truly a spiritual experience and defining moment in my life. When I returned, I started gathering what I needed.

Grandad's legacy wasn't instruments, but grandfather clocks--beautiful precise pieces of functional art that will probably last for centuries. I too became inspired to leave something for my children. Before I am done, I want to leave some mandolins and a few guitars--something Dad made.

I have other legacies--I have written a bunch of music and even wrote a hit song. Still, there is something more tangible about something one can hold in the hand and admire--and make music with too.

Thanks for that story. I'm right with you brother!

Luthier
Feb-17-2004, 5:02am
My God! #I need to take this entire thread down to the State Department of Education and read it to them. #Maybe it would send a message to them of why they need to bring back the good old "shop" class. #I have really enjoyed reading everyone's comments and stories. #It is nice to know you are out there!!!

Don

John Zimm
Feb-17-2004, 9:10am
Flowerpot,

That was a really touching story you told, thanks for sharing.

I probably would not even consider trying to make something out of wood if it weren't for my Stepfather, whose name was Don. Don was a great man who raised me up after my father left when I was 3, and he taught me so much when we would sit around making gun stocks or talking, or playing music. Don loved old time gospel music and played the harmonica, and I would accompany him on the guitar or mandolin. When I would play a song he liked like "Great Speckled Bird" of "Mansion Over the Hilltop" he would get tears in his eyes and ask me to play it again. The very day he died we spent nearly an hour together playing old gospel songs and some Hank Williams tunes too. I inherited all of his old tools and developed a desire to pass on something in his memory. Anytime I use one of his chisels that have an imprint of his large hands I think of him and the legacy he left, and of my responsibility to try and live up to the standards of decency and kindness he showed me.

Wow, your post is really touching, not to sound like a sissy or anything. Thanks again Flowerpot.

Don-I would definitely share this thread with anyone who makes decisions about curriculum. Woodworking has an importance that a lot of core subjects can't begin to compete with.

-John.

Flowerpot
Feb-17-2004, 11:59am
Thanks for the kind words. It's clear there are a lot of us who will be passing more than just a piece of wood down through the generations -- what we end up building is a piece of ourselves. It may not be a Master Model, but it may be worth more than gold to somebody down the line.

crawdad
Feb-17-2004, 12:25pm
#Anytime I use one of his chisels that have an imprint of his large hands I think of him and the legacy he left, and of my responsibility to try and live up to the standards of decency and kindness he showed me.
I've had some rather profound experiences just holding my grandfather's chisels and files. Its like I get a glimpse of his whole mindset as he worked. Something comes through and thats inspiring.