How Many Loars Exist?

[Brookside]

I was wondering how many Loar signed mandolins are known to exist today. Any guesses on how many more are sitting in an attic somewhere? How often do they come up for sale and where?

[ethanopia]

check this out...

http://www.mandolincafe.com/archives/f5journal/

[Scott Tichenor]

That page is slightly out of date. Just the other day a new one turned up and the owner is a board member now. Two places to hang out in addition to here if you have an interest in these:

http://www.f5journal.com/
http://www.mandolinarchive.com

[f5loar]

You say mandolins so I will assume you mean only the Loar signed F5s. Well to date about 200 found and verified. Estimated using the gaps in serial number batchs is a total of 309 could have been made. So 109 are still out there unverified. Note: This estimate does not take in to account the unknown number of "unsigned" Loar era Loars.
Now you take about half of this number is out there found but not reported to F5 Journal for several reasons: The owners never heard of F5 Journal, The owners live in a cave and don't come out much, The owners don't won't others to know they have them keeping them in the privacy of their home unbeknown to their wives/family/friends, or the owners are out there and people have seen it but nobody wrote the serial number down to get it to the F5 Journal. That leaves 54 still out there unaccounted for still in the original owners/families hands.
I would subtract 14 as being destroyed either by fires, earthquakes, floods, fire pokers or UPS. 80 years is a long time for #### like this to happen to a Loar. Now you are down to 40 that can still come out of the woodwork for us to talk about. At the rate of about 2 per year (some years 1, some years 3) it will take another 20 years to get them all accounted for. Where they come up is anybodies guess.
It can be a pawn shop who calls Gruhn's or Mandolin Bros, Elderly or a simple guy walks in off the street into a music store to say "how much will you give me". Some are in known places but untouchable at this time like waiting for someone to die and the people who know this read the obits daily. Most found on East Coast from New York to Miami,
some on West Coast since many moved West after 1925. Hots cities in the past haved been New York,Boston,Rhode Island, Pittsburg,Atlanta, Philidephia, Seattle, San Frans. Los Angl. Does that answer your question?

[Brookside]

Does that answer your question?
So you are saying you don't know, huh?

Yes, thank you for the wealth of information on the subject. I don't believe you could have answered it better. I really appreciate you experts taking the time to answer mandolin 101 questions for a newcommer like myself. And thanks to you Scott for a fantastic site.

[peterbc]

Well, since I'm in Seattle and my sister lives across the bay from San Fransisco, I'd say it's safe to get my hopes up that I'll find one for $250 in the next year or so!

[danb]

From the mandolin archive database (which should be in sync with Darryl's list):
263 Total Instruments signed by Lloyd Loar

216 F5 Mandolins
1 A5 Mandolin
1 10-string Mando-Viola
21 L5 Guitars
18 H5 Mandolas
6 K5 Mandocellos

88 of those instruments have (or have had removed) virzis
8 instruments with virzis *not* signed by Loar are also in our list

[f5joe]

"Just the other day a new one turned up and the owner is a board member now."

Scott, does this mean I can be a board member if I find a Loar? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Scott Tichenor]

I now own a Loar that no one else owns. Shamless plug for Dan's Mandolin Archive mousepads (http://www.cafeshops.com/mandoarchive.9523927). I'm the first in the world to own one, serial #72052 signed Feb. 8, 1923. They're deadly cool. Since he's in England he shipped me the first one to check out before he opened up for selling these. I can vouch that they are wickedly cool and that the picture, as good as it looks doesn't do it justice. Must have for mandoloaraniacs. BTW, these are sold my CafePress in the U.S. so they're shipped here, not from England--in case you wondered or it mattered.

[f5loar]

I was 16 off from Darryl's other listing? He needs to update more often. So subtract 16 from that 40 and you only got 24 left to find out there.
Bummer! The end is near!

[MANDOLINMYSTER]

I'ma gonna find me one ah dem' Loars if'n its the last thing I due http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[mandoJeremy]

More than we can afford!

[danb]

F5Loar: Frank Ford added a few that weren't on Darryl's list when we put the database together.. and 2 L5s and one F5 have turned up since we started the online project.

We're filling in the gaps with the FONs from other instruments at the time, so I'd say that it's getting pretty clear that we have representatives from all the "Loar batches".. though you never really know for sure!

[f5loar]

That's the missing numbers I was talking about. Numbers known to be found but not reported. I am sure there are many that way. I am always hearing about so and so had a Loar I saw the other night but they didn't get the serial number or name so it faded back into the unknown or they could have been fakes. We will never know. There are lots of old timers out there that have them but do not want to be known not to mention those recluse collectors that never leave their homes in fear of a break in. With the work Darryl and I (and others) have done over the years most all of the ones that had public exposure have been documented. I remember the hardest one to document was Earl Taylor's Fern. I had contacted the family right after Earl had died and they simply would not show the mandolin nor give me the serial number. At that time they felt it had the value of Monroe's or at least slightly less. Didn't Earl's Fern sell recently at market value?

[Darryl Wolfe]

Yes ..looks like I'm behind now
ACTUALS-TO DATE

254 Loar Period Instruments (verified)
205 Mandolins, F
1 Mandolins, A
18 Mandolas, H
6 Mando-cellos, K
22 Guitars, L
1 Mando-viola

17 1922 Dated Instruments
103 1923 Dated Instruments
134 1924 Dated Instruments

18 Verified fern Loar mandolins
17 Verified triple bound on side mandolins

129 Post Loar instruments (verified)
112 Mandolins, F
2 Mandolas, H
1 Mando-cellos, K
13 Guitars, L (fairly recent category, hundreds were made)


ESTIMATES * see below

384 Total Loar instruments
311 Total Loar mandolins, F
1 Total Loar mandolins, A
21 Total Loar mandolas
11 Total Loar mando-cellos
39 Total Loar guitars
1 Total Loar mando-violas
* The above "estimates" are based on a mathematical formula that takes into account the first and last verified number within an established "batch" of instruments. The estimates should be considered
minimums since no assumptions have been made concerning the actual size of individual batches.
In recent years several new small batches and dates have appeared, however, it is reasonable to
assume that all batches are accounted for at this time. Therefore the estimated numbers will increase
only when instruments are added between batches, changing the established batch size. It is this
author's opinion, after careful analysis of the batch data, that the present F5 Journal estimate is well
within 10 percent of the actual numbers of instruments produced. Consequently, The F5 Journal estimates
total Loar signed instrument production to be around 400, with mandolins accounting for about 320.

[Darryl Wolfe]

So...even though my numbers need to be updated some.......There are about 100 Loar mandolins that are unaccounted for

[Km1000seth]

yall just converted somebody to a garage sale/flea market shopper

[Nalapombu]

My teacher and I often discuss this topic. We both live in an area that is rich with Bluegrass tradition and has been for many moons. How much better an area can you get than Eastern Kentucky and West Virginia? I have no doubt that there is one hiding out in a closet, attic or hope chest that hasn't seen the light of day for a long time. The good thing is that I have a buddy who is so darn lucky that it is scary. I have turned him onto the trail and we'll see if anything pops up. There is one around here, I know it.

Nala

[Brookside]

I initially had the same thought. My father grew up near the Missouri/Arkansas border in a town called Dora, also rich with bluegrass tradition. I thought maybe there is one somewhere in Ozark County. After reading the comments above, from f5loar, it occurred to me that these are unlikely places to find one. A Loar signed mandolin sold for about $350 in the mid 20's which was a huge sum of money. (someone correct me if I'm wrong on the $350, seems I've heard that) I don't think there were hardly any folks at all in Ozark County able to pay that much for an instrument. This is an area that did not have electricity until the 1950's. As far as I know they were never proportionally cheap enough for a hillbilly, even in the secondary market. I'm sure the majority of them were initially sold to well-to-do types which would explain why many of them have turned up in major cities along the east and west coasts.

[evanreilly]

I beleive the list price for the Loar F-5 was $250.00.

[danb]

Try This Link (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/list_mandolins.pl?loar).. it's some work-in-progress on the MA site and is a search for just Loar-signed instruments in the archives.. I think I'll expand that interface more soon to enable some more fine-grained searching for the enthusiasts in the community!

[Jim Garber]

Note: This estimate does not take in to account the unknown number of "unsigned" Loar era Loars.
What is the story or theory why he did not sign some? I can't imagine that he was absent from work and they let some out the door without his signature. I see BTW that there is an unsigned Loar for trade on the classifieds.

Come to think of it, how did he sign these? If the point was his seal of approval that it was of the highest quality, his signature would have to go on after the instrument was completely built. Did they insert the label thru the sound hole?

Jim