Ricky Skaggs

[Bradley]

As I read thru the threads there is probably as many slams
against Skaggs as there are comments on why Nickel Creek isnt bluegrass.

Today the comment was made on another thread against Ricky being the "Torchbearer" after Big Mons death.

My question is this,if he isnt the Modern leader of Bluegrass music then who is? I will say that I am a huge fan of RS,and consider him a great leader in the Bluegrass arena.It seems that there is either a love or hate feeling for him sometimes.

So who is the "Torchbearer"

What is a "torchbearer" in this context? #If you mean promoting Bill Monroe's memory, that is his self-proclaimed role. #If you mean playing music closest to the Monroe "tradition", that would have to be Del McCroury - Ricky has too many people on stage with him.

[SeanFan]

I certainly don't have anything bad to say about him, mostly because of the fact that I don't really know who he is, but I had no idea that some people don't think Nickel Creek is bluegrass. That's like my favorite group!!

[Bradley]

I mean Torchbearer as someone who is there to carry on the Bluegrass Tradition...I.E.-Someone to do the work that Bill would do if he were still here/following in his footsteps.

In regards to the N Creek comment,I love them.Absolutely one of the best concerts I have ever seen.But I do not consider them Bgrass...And I do not mean this in negative light, but I cant understand not knowing who Skaggs is but believing NC is Bluegrass.Guess that shows the impact NC has had on a new group of listeners.

(and again, I didnt throw rocks at SeanFan)

[kebmando]

I think there is an undercurrent that Ricky Skaggs feels he is the heir-apparent to WSM. I'm not sure Skaggs thinks that, but I think people think he thinks that.

I don't think too many would argue that Del McCoury and his band is probably the closest thing to the WSM-style BG that is going now, but if you think about it, he does some stuff that is certainly not in the WSM style...lots of "spooky" songs (it's just the night, city of stone) that seem to be his own style, and also the Ronnie McCoury instrumental stuff sometimes seems to be almost in a Celtic influence, much moreso than any of WSMs instrumentals.

Anyway I guess it doesn't really matter. If you liek a band, you like em. As for Nickel Creek, they sure aren't bluegrass, but that doesn't mean there not any good.

[kebmando]

Oh yeah...and do you think Monroe would have done any cover tunes? No way, but Del & the Boys do a bunch of covers, really well, too.

[doanepoole]

Bradley,

I have deleted that post and sorry if I offended you. I meant it as kind of a joke because it seems that every PBS special has Ricky Skaggs a s the host so you have to smooch up to be seen as a top-tier BG act. The joke was in poor taste. I sincerely did not mean to offend anyone.

[Mike Bunting]

Monroe did covers-Long Black Veil for one.

[Bradley]

No...I didnt take it that way at all...No apologies needed, Honestly.I really wasnt even trying to start a Flame http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif


I just have noted that there is either a hate or love thing for Ricky....And always the "self appointed" comments come into play in any bluegrass arena.And since so many people say "he isnt", I was just wandering what the votes were on "who is"

[doanepoole]

Well, I guess my vote goes to Earl Scruggs or Ralph Stanley.

[doanepoole]

Gotta add Brakeman's Blues to the Monroe cover list. I'm not sure Monroe would have been to keen on covering Dylan tunes or Flatt & Skruggs tunes, though http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[GTison]

peach pickin time in GA., long black veil, cotton fields, bugle call rag, mule skinner blues, blue yodel# , I'm so lonesome I could cry, .............. shall I go on?

earl scruggs ain't bearing a bluegrass torch. Ralph is carrying on. Ricky is doing well. It doesn't hurt my fellings if we call him a torch bearer. He does the music justice. He does cover the "standards" but how he does it is vibrant and alive. Bluegrass is rather popular right now. Del has a good video on CMT!! ricky don't , but Del in not traditional in his songs anymore, but I love it. I like the old (ricky) and the new (Del) and the old Del too.

[jlb]

There are no bands that sound like the bluegrass of "the good old days"...I'd agree with consensus that Del McCoury is the closest.

Just talking out of my patootey, but I haven't heard a bluegrass band that sounded like they grew up poor in a long time.

[pathfinder]

Actually, Bill did lots of covers. #His first Opry number in 1939 was a cover of "Muleskinner Blues" by Jimmy Rodgers. #He recorded "Fox on the Run" made famous by the Seldom Scene. #And I was listening to him today on an old 1958 album, doing "I Saw The Light" by Hank Williams Sr.

No one specific "Torchbearer" exists any more. #Monroe became a legend over 60 years for preserving traditional rural music, for composing a lot of songs and instrumentals, and for recording, touring and being on the Opry for 55 years. #He was also a legend for for being a man of strong convictions, and for stubbornly refusing to abandon an acoustic string band sound for all the electrical innovations that were emerging during his lifetime. #

No one can fill Bill's shoes. #And Ricky Skaggs would be the first to admit this. #He's caught a lot of undeserved flack for being an articulate "go to" guy that documentary film makers and networks tend to use when they need a spokesperson to interview about Bluegrass music.

The thing is, Bill' music has branched out into channels even Bill couldn't envision. #Today's young folks (like Nickel Creek) grew up in the cities and suburbs during the '70's and '80's, and can't really identify with songs about growing up poor in a cabin in the mountains during the Great Depression.

So they sing about their own circumstances and the world they see unfolding in 2004, not 1934. #That's only natural and appropriate. #And I think it can still be bluegrass, just as long as they keep the honesty in the music and the acoustic sound intact. #IMHO.

[Flowerpot]

"No one specific "Torchbearer" exists any more. "

Exactly. Bill didn't pass the torch to anybody in particular. In interviews given near the end of his life, he conspicuously refused to comment on the future of Bluegrass after his time was up. Which I interpreted at the time to mean that either bluegrass had a life of its own, and needed no particular caretaker, or that bluegrass was so linked to its father that in Monroe's mind, the music would cease to be bluegrass after his death. I often think he believed the latter. But bluegrass having a life of its own certainly turned out to be the case. Ricky may have pledged Bill to devote his remaining career to "carrying the torch", but I don't think it was at the request of the Big Mon.

[evanreilly]

Bill Monroe recorded lots of covers; he recorded 12 of Jimmie Rodgers' numbers alone. Did you ever hear his recording of 'Changing Partners', the big Patti Page chart-topper??
I don't have a recording of Bill Monroe doing 'Fox on the Run', tho....
As far as Skaggs goes, he believes he is the heir to Monroe's mantle; that is his proclamation. Monroe did not lay hands on Skaggs' head while Monroe lay on his dying bed, anointing Ricky Skaggs the successor.
Personally, I think Del McCoury, having played as a Blue Grass Boy, has a better claim. I also hear the DMB as, to my ear, playing closer to Monroe's style than RS&KT. RS&KT are a bit too smooth where Monroe was more edged and sharp.

[mmukav]

Great thread........ I really don't know if you could replace Bill Monroe like that, with someone else 'playing the part' as it were. I don't know if there's anyone who could take his place, as torchbearer. I think there a few people like Ricky, Del, etc. that are helping to carry the torch, but not totally by themselves.

[jlb]

RS&KT are a bit too smooth where Monroe was more edged and sharp.

That's a really good way to put it. I don't know it could just be me, but when I listen to Bill Monroe it sounds almost like the man is angry and depressed, or sometimes one and sometimes the other. It comes by in his singing, but maybe even more in his picking. And then you hear the occasionall song that he sings or plays that sounds joyous, and it almost wants to make you cry becuase it is so happy comared to the anger/depression you have been listening to up to that point...I think when I hear Monroe play Soldiers Joy is a great example of the "happy" Monroe vs. the "angry" Monroe. It is intensity of emotion, a raw sound in music that is hard to some by these days.

[BluegrassPhilfromFrance]

When he sticks to bluegrass music, the Bill Monroe torchbearer is without any doubt, the ONE and ONLY ... PETER ROWAN ! If by any chance you've seen the DVD "Gather At The River", you'll know what I mean. But now who's Ray Charles torchbearer ? #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[Scotti Adams]

..yep..Peter Rowan gets my vote....when he plays 'grass of course...he sounds like Mun and nowadays even looks like Mun. I believe the story goes as Bill layed dying and Skaggs was there to visit Skaggs told Bill.."dont worry, I will carry on your music" or something to that effect.....so Skaggs more or less passed it to himself. Theres also the story when Skaggs was at the memorial sevice at the Ryman he turned and seen a clock..the clocks hands were pointed to certain numbers....Skaggs took that as a sign because that clock setting had the same numbers as a scripture that more or less told Skaggs that he was indeed the "Torchbearer" and he was to carry on where Bill left off.

[mandoanon]

I am not in music circles or such - I just listen, play, and enjoy bluegrass music. I say if Ricky Skaggs, or anyone else for that matter, wants to promote Bill Monroe and bluegrass music - power to them.

[Dagger Gordon]

To some extent I think you have to differentiate between Monroe as a bandleader, as a singer and as a mandolinist.
Looking at it that way, there is no need to single out one person.

Skaggs and McCoury have certainly strong claims to be the torch-bearing bandleaders. However times have moved on, and although I would hesitate to suggest that Alison Krauss is Monroe's torchbearer, she could reasonably claim to be one of the leading bluegrass bandleaders today, certainly in the general public's eyes.

The popularity of 'Man of constant sorrow' surely makes Dan Tyminski, who is of course a member of her band, a contender on the vocal side. I would also put in a mention for Tim O'Brien.

Thirdly, there are a number of different ways to view his contribution as a mandolin player. There are players who try to sound very like Monroe, which is fair enough, but one of his biggest achievements was popularising the mandolin as an instrument. It seems to me that the 2 people who have done most to popularise the instrument since Monroe (and I'm not necessarily comparing their music to his) are Grisman and Thile.

[ourgang]

Who is the "torch-bearer" of Bluegrass Music?? I AM. Me and every other mucician who spend their week-ends running the back roads to get to a music job, usually not even making gas money. But we do it for the love of the music. We're the ones who carry on the tradition

[cutbait2]

the current torch bearer of BG is Peter Rowan? please, lets get serious. Del McCoury is the only answer with Ricky Skaggs a close second followed by AK.....

[GVD]

cutbait2 Posted
the current torch bearer of BG is Peter Rowan? please, lets get serious. Del McCoury is the only answer with Ricky Skaggs a close second followed by AK.....

I believe the operative phrase that Phil and Scotti used was "When he sticks to bluegrass music". I can't argue with that. Of course he does have a tendency to stray a little from strictly bluegrass don't he? As far as Skaggs being a torch bearer I don't remember Big Mon being a big talker. I only saw him live once but he probably played at least 20 songs in less than 1 hour. I saw Ricky Monday night and he only played 12 songs in a little over 2 hours. It was the most excruciating performance I've ever sat through in my whole life. He did tell the story that Scotti mentioned about Monroes death bed and looking at his watch at 11:11 and reading some 11:11 scripture while at the Ryman but by then my eyes and ears had pretty much glazed over so I can't even remember the details. Which is sad considered I normally love hearing anything about Monroe's life.

If Rickys the torch bearer then the torch has been snuffed out by all that wind coming out of his pie hole.

GVD

[mandopete]

Del McCoury, hands down.

[Moose]

Scott T. posted a really good salad receipe over on another section... mmmmm.., ZZZZZ . Have a fun weekend all.. Moose. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[Geno]

The irony of this thread is that if somebody else had started Bluegrass music, Bill Monroe would've never in a million years just copied them. He was driven to create his own music, and would never have been content to be anyone else's "torch bearer". So who do you think carries on Bill's
creative fire and spirit?

[cutbait2]

again Del, pushing the boundary's and bringing it back home. "when Ricky sticks to BG" his music is definitely at the top, AK expands the appeal with her cross over stuff. Ralph is certainly one of the livings icons, there are others who get alot less press, but the above three are really out front (at the present) this discussion kind of shorts guys like JD Crowe and Doyle Lawson, and their contributions, in whose company I'd put Peter Rowan. maybe its a group effort........

[Darryl Wolfe]

No one at the moment is the "torchbearer". Ricky Skaggs and Peter Rowan certainly get my vote as being capable of "Bringing Monroe back into our Hearts" with their music. So, with that said Del and Ralph Stanley are about all that's left of the "old school" that have remained reasonably true to their Bluegrass roots. Bill Monroe will not be replaced, but Dell and Ralph certainly advance to fill a certain void that commands respect for their dedication to the trade.

[ManjoMan]

I agree with Ourgang. As long as we continue to play and
even if we do "covers" once in a while, we are carrying the
torch. I believe Mr. Monroe would be proud of what is
happening in bluegrass today. New and younger groups are
continuing the tradition, maybe not like Mr. Monroe did, but nonetheless, the music is thriving. Even if he didn't like a group like Nickel creek, I think he would still give them a word of encouragement. Everywhere I get to play, there is always someone that says "Can you play Blue Moon of Kentucky" like Bill Monroe? Not like Ricky Skaggs....or
Del McCoury...or <your name here>! Like BILL MONROE...

Remember, this is just an opinion. You can be wrong if you want too! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[BluegrassPhilfromFrance]

Hello Bill,
Speaking about Peter Rowan VERY seriously, I'm seing him as THE torchbearer, although he would probably hate that denomination, because wasn't he the guy who played the guitar and sang lead vocals in the Bluegrass Boys during the 60's and who also wrote one of the most beautiful number sung by Big Mon : The Walls Of Time ? That might be some good reasons don't ya think ? #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[Tom C]

Del McCoury?http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif Del's band plays too many chords to have anything to do with Bill as far a carrying a torch. Who plays more monroe tunes, has that high lonesome voice, has had a good relationship, is more well known, and has a greater band than Ricky Skaggs? -Of course everything is subjective but Skaggs has a bit of it all.

[cutbait2]

Hello Phil, no arguing about Peter Rowans talent, contributions etc, but as "current torchbearer" i would say it would need to be someone who's regularly now on the BG charts (see BG unlimited eg) and whose music is accepted as consistant with to Monroe's definition of BG. Peter R would meet neither standard presently, just my opinion... I like F5journals answer.....

[Wm. Joe Batterton]

If you are talking about who is bringing Bluegrass and BG flavored music to the masses, then it is AKAUS hands down. Who is bringing the most traditional sound to the masses?...........I'd have to say the Del McCoury Band.

I still do not understand how Bill Monroe can get the whole credit for Bluegrass music? Was he an inovator? Yes I believe he was. Did he create the genre of music that is considered Bluegrass all by himself? I don't think so. I personally feel that Flatt and Scruggs had more to do with the developement of the sound than Monroe did. Like it or not it just ain't BG without scruggs style Banjo....anyway that is fodder for another thread.

I do like what someone earlier said.......I am the tourchbearer of BG. Me and every other musician who spends their weekends playing this music we love so much!!...... or something to that effect.

[ourgang]

Everyone's talked about the "high profile" guys like Skaggs, Rowan, McCoury, but how about some of the low profile guys like David Davis and the Warrior River Boys. After all, David's uncle, Cleo Davis was the first Bluegrass Boy (guitar). David puts on as good a show as anyone out there, bar none. Great singer, great mandolin player, great songs, great band. Or what about Melvin Goins? He's been at it for 50 years or more. These guys run the roads all year long, summer and winter, taking Bluegrass music all over the country. Not only that, but they've stayed true to their musical roots. Skaggs was a sell-out in the 70's and 80's, Peter Rowan's music for the most part is that off-the-wall
c--p he does, Bluegrass only if he has to and Del's music is the same as Del's music has alway been, Bluegrass, but with a twist, not really traditional. These 3 guys, are for the most part, "up-town".

[Dagger Gordon]

I just looked up Bobby Osborne's site. Wasn't even sure if he was still alive.

Seems to be still on the road a lot. Don't know a lot about him, but his singing on Vassar Clements 'Bluegrass Session' was great. I don't read much about him here.

[Bobbie Dier]

I vote for The Del, Ronny, Rob McCoury .

[Vincent]

just to be ornery, Grisman played the music he heard in *his* head, and supported a number of great musicians who passed through his band on their way to playing *their* music. Monroe did the same. Now Grisman's certainly not the "leader" of modern BG, and from there it's just who you prefer to listen to.

That said, I like what ourgang posted above.

[Scotti Adams]

I still do not understand how Bill Monroe can get the whole credit for Bluegrass music? Was he an inovator? Yes I believe he was. Did he create the genre of music that is considered Bluegrass all by himself? I don't think so. I personally feel that Flatt and Scruggs had more to do with the developement of the sound than Monroe did. Like it or not it just ain't BG without scruggs style Banjo....anyway that is fodder for another thread.

I do like what someone earlier said.......I am the tourchbearer of BG. Me and every other musician who spends their weekends playing this music we love so much!!...... or something to that effect.
..can I get a big Amen....Ive thought this way for along time..

[Garrett]

Dudley Connell is absolutely the torchbearer. Listen to James King and Dudley sing duets. Bluegrass lives.

And me too of course, and all of you that try to play Rawhide and go to the festivals!

[Tim Smith]

I remember reading an article back in the eighties and they were interviewing Monroe. They asked who was going to lead the next generation in bluegrass music and Monroe 's answer was "I am".

[AlanN]

Bobby is the Man! You forget about his mando playing (very great) 'cause he was(is) such a great singer. The Osborne style of vocal harmony was very innovative and hip.

[Brian Ray]

Del or Doc...

Skaggs is a chubber...

[mandoman4807]

Ourgang,

You hit the nail square on with David Davis and the Warrior River Boys. I caught there show a few weeks ago at Kodak, TN (Camperfest). I can`t agree more. The stage presents, the voice, the style of mando playing, the hole nine yards. During there show, I could`t help but think of the Big Mon!

Darrell

[BluegrassPhilfromFrance]

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif For a change, let's have a vote for a woman :
RHONDA VINCENT !!!

[JDARTGOD]

RV.......:laugh:

As far as the original thread goes...Skaggs started in Bluegrass....good on him. Then he brought a new sound to Country Music....good on him. Then he lost all his appeal when Garth and George and Clint hit the scene. So then he returns to Grass (only after it's a little more popular) and becomes the Self Proclaimed BIG MON disciple and did more preaching than singing....he lost my vote.

I don't know him personally but I have heard from many friends, in and out of the business, that he is a FIRST RATE, self indulged @$$hole. Seems pretty accurate to me.

I would only watch his show if it were part of some bigger festival line up.....not just a Skaggs show. He's a great picker and singer and has done alot for the Music, but just doesn't get my vote.

As far as a Modern Day Torch Bearer, there are many to be considered....Doyle Lawson deserves as much credit as Del McCoury in this department so I'll go with this:

Doyle Lawson - Bluegrass Gospel Torch Bearer
Del McCoury - Traditional Bluegrass Torch Bearer

There's many, but that's about as close as it can get for me.

[Peter Hackman]

Gotta add Brakeman's Blues to the Monroe cover list. I'm not sure Monroe would have been to keen on covering Dylan tunes or Flatt & Skruggs tunes, though http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Monroe did record Cabin in Caroline in 1976.
Lester Flatt suggested it to him.

Other covers, quite a few country standards: Poison Love
When My Blue Moon Turns To Gold Again
It Makes No Difference Now,
Journey's End,
Sugar Coated Love, A Fallen Star, Four Walls
(though I believe the last two were not really
his choice, as he sounds very uncomfortable
with them). And Watson Blues is
really You'll Find Her Name Written There
(which he rocorded too)

The instrumental Milenberg Joy is an old standard
popularized in jazz by Jelly Roll Morton,
although Monroe transforms it
(beautifully) into a march or
a polka.

[Scotti Adams]

...the Old Old house....he covered that one too...

[Scotti Adams]

..JDart...go ahead and tell us how you really feel...now dont hold back none..ya hear....Ive heard the same thing about Ricky..esp. from people who are associated with the Hicks camp...And Skagg's mando style has changed too...hes more Monroish now....I liked his style he had back in the 70's and 80's.....he was truly one of a kind then..

[sandcastlefaith]

In my opinion, I think that Bill Monroe would have been more concentrated on the developent of bluegrass music, not the maintenance of it to as close to his style as humanly possible. Therefore, if he looked years into the future and saw most of the bluegrass bands out there still playing his cover tunes and things that he himself played, but better I might add, he probably would have frowned upon it. Now, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that one of the significant torchbearers that I see is Chris Thile and Nickel Creek. I am of the opinion that Nickel Creek is not to be considered strictly bluegrass, but it is also obvious that their roots are in bluegrass, and the music that they play branches off of bluegrass. Therefore, if Bill Monroe were to see that bands of young people, like Nickel Creek, who are attracting many other young people to the bluegrass genre that would never been exposed to it if we relied on Del McCoury and Ricky Skaggs to try and show them bluegrass, I think Big Mon would have a smile on his face.

[Scotti Adams]

Bill to Chris..."Son..that aint part of nothin" http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Peter Hackman]

..JDart...go ahead and tell us how you really feel...now dont hold back none..ya hear....Ive heard the same thing about Ricky..esp. from people who are associated with the Hicks camp...And Skagg's mando style has changed too...hes more Monroish now....I liked his style he had back in the 70's and 80's.....he was truly one of a kind then..
Wonder if Doyle Lawson went the same way. When I heard him
with JD Crowe in
Lexington in 1969 his stuff sounded somewhat "progressive"
to my ears, reminiscent of the stuff that Grisman played with
Red Allen.

[Salty Dog]

I have been a Ricky fan back to the days when he was touring with Ralph and sitting in on Seldom Scene sessions. #Ricky does NOT get my vote as the torch bearer for two reasons 1 (his propensity to confuse performing and preaching) and 2 (his recent works with KT are so overproduced that my brain runs out of the room). #There is nothing like three or four superpickers taking a break at the same time or stepping all over each other. #Someone earlier said he has too many musicians on stage, which I think is a different way of making the same point. #The torch bearer (if there is one) must also preserve the simplicity of bluegrass music. #Much of the beauty of bluegrass is in its basic simplicity. #Those who fail to see that turn it into the Boston Pops with acoustical instruments. #I don't think there will be a single torchbearer but several and would claim that it was always that way. #If WSM was the only torchbearer, the music would have been regional and (if he had had his way) he would have been the only one to have done it. #The popularization of bluegrass was mostly done by Flatt & Scruggs and the Stanleys. #Sadly, Bill wasn't the best or most polished performer of his music. #To summarize, I think there will be a number of torchbearers with the parking lot pickers being the most influential as it is us that spend the bucks. #That's my humble opinion.

[Garrett]

I'll second that! Except the part about Bill.

[mrbook]

Monroe started the music, but if Flatt & Scruggs, the Stanleys, Reno & Smiley, and others hadn't carried it on and spread the word we wouldn't have the music we like today. I don't think the people who are really carrying Bill's torch care about that - they are too busy playing music. My choice for the band that has that hard-driving , high lonesome bluegrass sound (however you define it) while adding something of their own is the Del McCoury Band. There are a lot of others, though - David Davis, the Bob Paisley Band, and others I've heard and haven't heard. I don't think Monroe had one heir in mind.

As for Ricky Skaggs - he has made some great music. The Bluegrass Rules album knocked me out, except for some spoken comments (which I edit out when playing the CD), but each album seems to stray a little more from what I think is pure bluegrass, and the music seems too polished and slick - I'd rather hear Frank Wakefield, where you never know what will happen next. The comments get in the way - ever listen to the hidden track at the end of Live at Charleston Music Hall? Who would put that on a recording? There are some great players in his band, but as far as being the heir apparent, I think it's better to have other people say it than announce it yourself.

[Scotti Adams]

..you said it Salty...

[BluegrassPhilfromFrance]

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif James MONROE ? ... Just kidding ! #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Mike Bullard]

As far as torchbearers go I would cast my vote for Ricky but when you look at bluegrass music as a whole it would be everyone who picks, plays, sings, writes and buys this music in either ticket or CD/Album formats. It is the pickers and singers who bear the burdon of taking this music further. If we as users don't go to the festivals and help promote it then we are the reason it will go away. Yes, Del and his sons as do others carry on as do the no name groups who give it all to be a Bill Monroe wannabe. I never go on stage or pick at a jam session that I don't think of Bill and how he would want it played. He was my mentor as was my paternal father. I miss them both dearly and will meet them again someday. But till then Ricky, Del, Ralph and whats their names will carry on.

Long Live Bluegrass!

Didn't mean to flame...Just my 2 cents.

[jasona]

Hrm. All of this talk seems to be focusing on who is keeping BG music in the mold closest to Monroe's. I would like to suggest that one of Monroe's greatest contributions was to take an instrument and move it to areas it had never been before. From this perspective I think the "next one" would be Sam Bush or David Grisman. Thile may be the next "Next One I suppose, following this criterion.

[thistle3585]

I vote for Mike Compton, and believe he is underrated. When he gets his act together, I think he will make more of an impact on BG than Ricky Skaggs could hope for. I do however believe that no one will ever be the "entertainer" that Bill was.

[ira]

ooooooooooouch!i am not a bg musician or even much of alistener to traditional bg, but im curious. why does their need to be a torchbearer?

[Moose]

Well.., it's kind of a traditional/societal/cultural thing - might even say it's kinda' like preserving and/or respecting the genre of a musical "form" and it's "founders".. - as opposed to the modern-day "throw-away" culture "thing"'..... I'd say kinda' like the bumper sticker.." It's a Jeep thing, you wouldn't understand".. - Guess maybe like the sayin'.."Ya' either get it or ya' don't" - (did I do OK, folks..) - http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

[LeftCoastMark]

A torchbearer is one who is breaking new ground, leading the way, a visionary. Skaggs, and bluegrass music in general, seems to me to be working into a Society For Creative Anachronism.

Who is the torchbearer today? We'll probably have some idea in 20 or 30 years. There is someone out there today making innovative stringband music that will stand the test of time. That person will probably be unrecognized or despised by their contemporaries. But that person will have an artistic vision that will take the long tradition of stringband music to another plane.

[Moose]

Now THAT'S really....profound!!! - Hear!!!.. Hear!! - http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[Mandodoc]

I'm glad someone finally mentioned Mike Compton, hands down the best Monroe style player. He is so under rated only because he does his playing without blowing his own horn about it. He was the mandolin behind the OBWAT scenes. I met him at the Kaufman Kamp and he was also very nice. I hope people will appreciate him someday.
jon

[thistle3585]

[QUOTE]I met him at the Kaufman Kamp and he was also very nice.

I think that is his problem. Mike is too nice and too accomodating. He needs to step up to the plate and toot his own horn. He also needs an agressive agent or manager.

[GTison]

Blue Grass or Bluegrass. I think I've changed my mind. There is NO torchbearer. Ricky just does covers mostly. Del on the other hand does new music or brings it into bluegrass. That's kinda what WSM did. Nickle Creek is a new kinda music. Newgrass has been done and seems every time some hotlick band comes along it gets rediscovered as if it was new. But the advancement of bluegrass may have stopped significantly with the demise of Bill Monroe. Yeah others were, and are more popular. But there's no one who generates the music like he did. There's no one person who can currently weild the power of it. Parking lot pickers just rehash the same old songs. While we love the jams, there is no real creative element in it. Bluegrass may be set like "old time music" now. I wonder. I did see more young people at beanblossom fest. than at any festival I've been to in 25 years at least. That's a good sign anyway. Torchbearer or not. ( and none of the torchbearers so far mentioned here were there) maybe BILL MONROE is like Obie-one Kanobe (sp?) when struck down he became more 'PIRFUL'http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[BenE]

I just saw a video last week of a Flatt and Scruggs Martha White show. They brought out this little kid of about 7 years old and Lester introduced him as little Ricky Scraggs. Well little Ricky played an A-style mandolin and really tore it up....One of those times you just have to shake you head cause it was so good coming from such a youngster. Ricky just stared straight ahead and played a couple of great solos. One thing you have to say about Ricky is that he certainly has a good resume and street credit.

[Moose]

and AMEN!! (and so does Marty Stuart... who began has career with the late-great Lester Flatt) - RIP Lester Flatt. No flame-wars pls.., but a well-known Bluegrass DJ(yes, there are still a few of 'em around), once replied to a listener "...if you want to know the definition of Bluegrass Music, listen to Flatt and Scruggs from the 50's and early 60's on Mercury and Columbia Records." http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[Scotti Adams]

..can I get a big ol fat Hell yea...???..you said it Moose..F&S...now that IS the defintion of BlueGrass..

[GTison]

It is the definition of BANJO centered bluegrass. I love it still, don't get me wrong but is it alot different than when F&S were with Monroe? Only in that they add dobro and dont let Curley play much. Ricky IS playing bluegrass at least. Marty Stewart I remember use to holler from the stage " rock-N- roll" Lester would tell him to tone it down or something but he was a bright spot on the stage. Precocious kid!! Lots of memories there.

[Moose]

Yup! - I've mentioned this story before.. :In an interview a few years ago, Marty said he "...grew up on Lester Flatt's bus." - Go figure... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[Bluegrass Boy]

Bill WAS the torch! #We're all the fire that he lit. #The torch cannot control the fire that it set. #So let's keep burning it up.

[AmosMoses]

Torchbearer is a mighty lofty role to live up to. Ricky is certainly a
Bluegrass Ambassador and he was my early inspiration for the music.

I agree with those who say that the people on this board (among others) are the collective torch-bearers of this genre.

[Bradley]

As I have posted before,I recently went to the Kentucky HorsePark Festival.And for the most part of the day it was raining therefore alot of Jams were going on.It was just a great thing to see all of the kids carrying around instruments going to pick at Jams and really getting into the festival after the rain cleared.In times past we have heard that Bluegrass is a dying music,after seeing this I believe the torch is being carried on quit well.

As far as F&S, I love them but "real" bluegrass comes from the Brothers from The Clinch Mountains http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Salty Dog]

I have said this before but I think the message keeps getting lost. #It IS important to keep the title true to the music and not allow those who want to play different music to capitalize on the title. Rock and Roll is the perfect example! #The trash that goes under that title today would be an embarassment to those who originated the music in the 50's and 60's. #I recently heard a radio announcer say "and now for some classic rock" - Elton John. #Elton John wasn't even peeing in his diapers when classic rock was defined nor did he follow the form. #I have no problem with many styles of music as my wife and I enjoy bluegrass to opera. #Just don't pretend to be what you aren't to sell a ticket or CD. #We see that now with acts such as Nickle Creek billing themselves as "bluegrass". #They are a fine band and excellent musicians but they are giving a lot of young folks the wrong idea of what bluegrass music is (or isn't).

[mandoJeremy]

Just for the record, Nickel Creek does NOT bill themselves as bluegrass and they know they are not. The may have bluegrass roots but they had the brain to take it to another level. Same as Sam Bush, he can play grass better than most but he chooses to play what he hears! If it weren't for Bush and NGR there would not be a Nickel Creek. They opened the doors for young people.

[Garrett]

They don't "take it to another level" they "take it somewhere else". You can't take what Monroe made to another level. You can play something else, or you can play grass differently. It's all good. But there's no level beyond Bill. He rules.

[cam]

Everything can be taken to another level - that's evolution. There's no doubt that a band like Nickel Creek and a musician like Chris Thile are taking the bluegrass thing to another level. That's not the same as saying that it's better though. It's a similar situation with Blues and Jazz. Jazz can be seen as taking certain aspects of Blues (among other things) to another level. Does that mean it's better? Not necessarily...so eh, what was the question again?

I like some bluegrass acts, can't stand to listen to others. #I've been attending festivals for over 25 years. #The idea that someone would pretend to be bluegrass to cash in strikes me as pretty unlikely. #Even with the surges in popularity that come and go, it has never been as popular as many other genres. #Those are the ones to cash in on.

[GVD]

I recently heard a radio announcer say "and now for some classic rock" - Elton John. #Elton John wasn't even peeing in his diapers when classic rock was defined nor did he follow the form.
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif What's your definition of classic? One of the most common definitions is "Having lasting significance or worth; enduring". By that definition I think Elton's music would have to qualify. And when it comes to common usage every so called classic rock station I've ever heard plays Elton. Yes his music is definitely on the pop end of the spectrum but he was still considered a rock act back in the day. #


We see that now with acts such as Nickle Creek billing themselves as "bluegrass"

Please provide an example. I've never heard Nickle Creek bill themselvesas bluegrass.

GVD

[Moose]

Ah!! - NOW we're gettin' down an' dirty! - I love it! - Reminds me of the "old daze" on this Cafe... Carry on folks. Moose. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

[Dennis Schubert]

(I swore to myself that I wouldn't even read this thread, nor jump in. So far, I haven't. I believe I'll go practice some more B licks now...)

[Moose]

Good idea, ironweed... hee... hee.. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[Garrett]

"Everything can be taken to another level - that's evolution. There's no doubt that a band like Nickel Creek and a musician like Chris Thile are taking the bluegrass thing to another level. That's not the same as saying that it's better though. "

The theory of evolution does not argue that things can be brought to a new level. Some things are just newer than others. And some things, like sharks, haven't changed much in millions of years because they are pretty good at what they do. Kind of like Bill.

[earthsave]

There we go blaspheming the creator by talking about evolution. #Don't cha know there taint no such thing as evolution. #Bluegrass was created, it can change, as all things do, but we don't need to go throwing in such strong words as evolution. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[GVD]

Don't cha know there taint no such thing as evolution

Yup, Kansas textbooks couldn't be wrong could they? #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

GVD

[John Zimm]

I guess I would ask, what band are other musicians trying to copy the most right now? That may indicate who or what exactly is the torchbearer. I don't care for Nickel Creek at all, but I would love to play like Thile.

-John.

[Bluegrass Boy]

Boy, this thread sure has evolved. Music is music. Words are words. It can be fun to discuss words like "bluegrass music" and "torchbearer". They are certainly not meaningless, but their meaning is not as rigorously defined as some other words. Pretty much anything that Bill Monroe played was bluegrass music. Almost by definition. Some of the things that Alison Kraus plays are definitely bluegrass. Some of the things she plays are definitely not. Where exactly do you put the line? Don't know, don't care. Remember, the map is not the territory. It doesn't matter what you're calling the music that you play or who's playing it. I'm sure that the Big Mon would approve of what Ricky Skaggs is doing. I know I do.

[cam]

"Everything can be taken to another level - that's evolution. There's no doubt that a band like Nickel Creek and a musician like Chris Thile are taking the bluegrass thing to another level. That's not the same as saying that it's better though. "

The theory of evolution does not argue that things can be brought to a new level. Some things are just newer than others. And some things, like sharks, haven't changed much in millions of years because they are pretty good at what they do. #Kind of like Bill.
Evolution implies that species or things change and develop over time. Humans evolved from apes we are told. This clearly represents an increasing level of complexity and sophistication for a species. It's true that some species (and maybe people) stop evolving - the shark is pretty good at what it does, but it's never going to be much of a mandolin player. ;)

[Moose]

Hear!... Hear!!... Cam ; now THAT is profound! (and quite possibly "on-the-money"). http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[Scotti Adams]

..yea...uh but..is Ricky the torch bearer? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[duuuude]

[quote=Garrett,June 29 2004, 12:48]- the shark is pretty good at what it does, but it's never going to be much of a mandolin player. ;)
Yeah, but who's gonna tell him? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[GVD]

Quote
the shark is pretty good at what it does, but it's never going to be much of a mandolin player. ;)

Yeah but you ought to see them deliver candygrams! #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

GVD

[Garrett]

On evolution: in all seriousness what you say is false. Darwin's theory has nothing to do with moving towards greater or lesser complexity, it has to do with random variation resulting in persistent organisms whether they are complex or not. Many complex organisms have died out, many simple one's persist. That's why the theory is so radical, not because we are more complex monkeys.

But I agree sharks don't play the mandolin well. They shark well. And Bill Monroe plays the deep ancient tones real good. I think Thile is a musical genius, I've said this many times on this list. I think he's a once in a generation freak phenomena like Charlie Parker. But he aint Bill, Bill channeled things from the beginning of the world. He was in a class by himself. You can't be better then him, just different.

[Scotti Adams]

..now people dont shoot me for this...but do any of you think Monroe got more credit than what was rightfully his?

[GTison]

Maybe... but then again no.
If you can stand all the getting high stories in Butch Robins book, it is a great insight into Bill Monroe. He said BM used the bluegrass boys' talent in his music. ...From the begining of his starting his "blue grass" career. each member contributed his own to the sound of Bill Monroe. I don't think he "set out to create it" but as he worked at his music and sound it did change. NO ONE else was the center of the creation of Bluegrass as we know it. Even F&S turned to pop music in the end. Bill forays into pop were very limited and half hearted at best. Is there a torchbearer??? I don't know if it's possible in my own limited definition of the 'center' of bluegrass. Which is somewhere between the old sounds of string band music and newer sounds of contemporary and Jazz. If you took out F&S, or J.Martin, or any one of the other alums of Bill Monroes band, would you still have the bluegrass sound? I say yes. But if you took out Bill Monroe would you have Bluegrass? What do you torchbearers think?

[cam]

On evolution: in all seriousness what you say is false. Darwin's theory has nothing to do with moving towards greater or lesser complexity, it has to do with random variation resulting in persistent organisms whether they are complex or not. Many complex organisms have died out, many simple one's persist. That's why the theory is so radical, not because we are more complex monkeys.

But I agree sharks don't play the mandolin well. They shark well. And Bill Monroe plays the deep ancient tones real good. I think Thile is a musical genius, I've said this many times on this list. I think he's a once in a generation freak phenomena like Charlie Parker. But he aint Bill, Bill channeled things from the beginning of the world. He was in a class by himself. You can't be better then him, just different.
You are refusing to acknowledge the obvious fact that much of (organic) evolution is indeed the history of complexity. Going back in time we can see how simple unicellular organisms have evolved into more complex systems. We talk of evolution in other areas of life as well of course - we can say for instance "Our small company has evolved over the years into a multi-million dollar organization." Do I really need to explain this?

You are right that many complex organisms have died out while many simple one's still persist. Which echoes the first point I made about evolution not being necessarily better.

We could continue to split hairs but I think I'd rather get on with playing my mando...

[mzbanjo]

OK people, I've been inspired by this thread to learn more about Mr. Monroe. So I just went to amazon.com and order the book "Can't You Hear Me Calling" and the four disc box set simply titled, "The Music of Bill Monroe." I heard nothing but good about the book, but how's this box set? Anybody here have a copy? I usually don't do box sets but it was only $35 for four discs so I thought that was pretty reasonable. Anyways, just thought I'd share.

Piece,
Matt

[GTison]

BUT isn't this thread and board about mandolins etc. lets keep it that way or feelings will get inflamed and this thread will be SHUT DOWN. If yall want to discuss evolution THEORY Start a Thread and see how far it gets. Keep it to the subject, Please

[Scott Tichenor]

The discussion of evolution as I'm seeing in this thread has no business being discussed here. That means it stops now, please.

[duuuude]

Them boys do get carried away some, huh? # # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Back on subject, nobody and everybody should be the torch bearer, the torch is borne by the music, not the man.
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[cam]

You're right guys - sorry for allowing myself to get sidetracked...I really do want to just play my mando..

[earthsave]

OK people, I've been inspired by this thread to learn more about Mr. Monroe. #So I just went to amazon.com and order the book "Can't You Hear Me Calling" #and the four disc box set simply titled, "The Music of Bill Monroe." #I heard nothing but good about the book, but how's this box set? #Anybody here have a copy? #I usually don't do box sets but it was only $35 for four discs so I thought that was pretty reasonable. #Anyways, just thought I'd share.

Piece,
Matt
Both are excellent. The CDs are in chronological order and start out with the Monroe Brothers and end with tunes from Bill in his 70's and even have the "torch bearer" on a few tunes. The booklet is a great brief history of Bill Monroe and his music. The 2nd CD is my favorite.

Go over to http://www.butchrobins.com and get his book too. It's a good read too.

[Garrett]

Butch Robins' book is a must have for the bluegrass lover. Weird, no holds barred and fascinating. Also if you want some insight into Monroe get John Hartford's great record "Good Ole Boys" and listen to the tune "Cross Eyed Child". Superb Monroe style mando by Michael Compton and revealing stories by the one and only John Hartford.

[GVD]

Matt.

I have the boxed CD set and think it's great. Like Scot said the booklet that comes with it is very informative by itself and the CD's represent a good cross section of the Big Mon's career.

GVD

[GTison]

the book "Bluegrass, a history" by Neil Rosenberg is a better Textbook about bluegrass and Bill Monroe than "Can't you hear me callin" IN MY OPINION. I've heard several times that the latter contains factual errors, though no one has ever said exactly what they are. I kinda think the Georga rose stuff in the book is made up of whole cloth just as a literary tool to make to book flow along( like a hook). Though it is very interesting and I think that book is part of the whole story. I whould rather have the entire collection of monroe stuff to listen to, because it gives a great whole picture of the Bill Monroe sound.

[JD Cowles]

this thread done drifted to far from the shore good people. #my vote for torchbearer is folks like us. #we're the ones pickin in our free time and goin to festivals and stayin up all night learnin tunes and sharing our love for this great american music. #cheers to all of us torchbearers! #we don't need no stinkin tour busses! #now let's ditch work and go pick by the creek! #who's with me?
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[earthsave]

The Rosenberg book is definitely a better text type book. If I remember correctly, (I borrowed it from the library to read and didnt buy it) it delved into originations of musical styles and instruments and comparisons versus a biorgraphy type book as Caint Your Hear Me Calling is or Tom Ewings book which is also an excellent read.

[futrconslr]

my two cents.
Skaggs is an a$$ but I do like his playing. He is a relentless self promoter and because of that he is likely viewd as "the torchbearer" If you say it often enough and loud enough people start believing it.

Nickle Creek sucks....as a bluegrass band. They are good musicians.

No one can come close to Mr. Monroe. There is no "other level" He is the level....give me a can of spray paint and I will spray "Monroe is god" on the wall of the Ryman.

Dr. Ralph is a living legend.....I am not sure what he does...a mix of bluegrass and just good mountain music. Call it what you like but he is my favorite vocalist hands down.

Finally, Mike Compton can play Monroe lick for lick BUT and this is a huge BUT..... Compton plays monroeisms on songs monroe never played. He is still not the torchbearer....

I dont think there is one.

[Scotti Adams]

..dont hold back now..tell us how you really feel http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[futrconslr]

LOL Now Scotti...I have you figured out....you like to stir the pot! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[GTison]

back to the subject...

Compton is a great Monroe stylist. And he has some great inventive tunes in the Monroe style. No criticism of Mike Compton at all.

But No one person Has it all to be Bill Monroe. I guess we may still want a torchbearer but I'm not sure there is only one. I think parts of the "spirit" that Bill Monroe had are in alot of different professional performers. Soul-vocal here, instrumental lick there, different performers. Maybe the bluegrass MOVEMENT is as a whole the torchbearer. A dissapated Bill Monroe if you will.

[stringburner]

I really don't understand the big deal with Del, he's got a horrible voice, Ronnie is an awesome mandolin player. I would love to see him dump his pops, and get a new vocalist!

[stringburner]

I mean lets face it, Chris Thile can play circles around Bill Monroe! Alot of musicians are jealous of Chris, including me. He is so far ahead(musically)of other mandolin players, he's scary good!

[Garrett]

"I really don't understand the big deal with Del, he's got a horrible voice, Ronnie is an awesome mandolin player. I would love to see him dump his pops, and get a new vocalist!"

Man, that just depresses me that anyone would say that. I'm bummed out. I guess some folks just don't like bluegrass.

[Bradley]

[QUOTE]I mean lets face it, Chris Thile can play circles around Bill Monroe! Alot of musicians are jealous of Chris, including me.

Yes this is true....but if you take Big Mon out of the picture then you have no Thile,Grisman,Skaggs,Osborne,McCoury,Steffey,Benso n,or thousands of us.If you take Thile out of the picture then you still have Grisman,Skaggs,Osborne,McCoury,Steffey,Benson,and thousands of us. So who has been more influential?

Granted Thile's talent level is amazing but in my honest opinion there is no reason for jealousy...heck I could never be that good so why worry about it.

However I will say that even though with his ability I would rather hear Steffey,Benson,Compton, and McCoury play anytime before Thile.Guess its a matter of Bluegrass Soul.
I think these boys are miles ahead of Thile...just my .02

[Scotti Adams]

..Very well said Pearl...I tend to agree with you on this one..

[cam]

Who was it that said "Opinions are like mandolins - everybody's got one."? Thank goodness that great music and musicians can take care of themselves, despite the rantings and ravings of the fans.

Music is one of the most amazing art forms we have, it's sad to see it torn apart and brought down like this.. sorry for being passionate and idealistic.

[evanreilly]

As far as reading material specifically about Bill Monroe, Tom Ewing's Bill Monroe Reader (http://www.press.uillinois.edu/f00/ewing.html) is tops on my vast blue grass bookshelf. #Not only was Ewing Monroe's 'guitar man' for a long stretch, but Ewing is a scholar of the music as well. #He has been writing his historical column for Bluegrass Unlimited for years, gathering piles of information about Monroe's musical career.
And, as to factual information, Ewing has carefully checked his facts and annotated the obscure materials in his "Reader". #I noted to Richard Smith that his assertion, as written in his book, that Monroe was born on Friday the 13th was incorrect; Monroe was born on Wednesday, September 13th, 1911.
And, of note, when Tom Ewing recorded a lot of his works for release, he had Mike Compton play the mandolin. Compton's playing on these recordings is some of my favorite blue grass mandolin playing, ever!!!

[futrconslr]

[QUOTE]Therefore, if Bill Monroe were to see that bands of young people, like Nickel Creek, who are attracting many other young people to the bluegrass genre that would never been exposed to it if we relied on Del McCoury and Ricky Skaggs to try and show them bluegrass, I think Big Mon would have a smile on his face.

Yeah, Big Mon would love Nickle Creek......Just like he loved New Grass Revival....LOL http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[GTison]

yeah... just like that.

Ya know Del's video of MY LOVE WILL NOT CHANGE is still playing on CMT network, no 5cent creek right now though. fame ...

[Scotti Adams]

..has anybody read the book that Butch Robbins has written about his tenure with Mun?...is it worth the money?....

[Garrett]

I have the book, and it's wild and fascinating. Very much worth buying for Butch's insight and his unfettered mouth.

[timeoutlaw59]

Well just thought i would put my 2 cents worth in if ya all don't mind.As a kid i was lucky enough to see the great Bill Monroe in his younger days along with many other great Bluegrass Singers Musicians and Writers.I feel that anyone who plays Bluegrass carries that Torch! From those pickers at the Festivals on stage to little guy picking out of his car, truck and camper.I know that Nickle Creek may not sound as one would think Traditional Bluegrass should sound, but they do keep it within the Bluegrass style with all stringed instuments.Therefore i feel they are also carrying a torch down their own branch of the path which did in my opion spin-off from Bluegrass Music.As long as Bluegrass stays Bluegrass and the Musicians don't let the Money Hungry Big Wigs behind the Music Iron Curtian make all the changes like they did to Country Music and turn it into POP i think we'll be just fine.I also think that Bluegrass Music is growing more everyday and glad it's not being shoved in the corner like it once was in the 70's and 80's.I truly know that there can never be another Bill Monroe but as this music branches off more and more we know it's really because of him.I also would like to mention that we should never forget that the Great Ralph and Carter Stanley also helped burn bright the torch that Bill Monroe started.I think that Bill Monroe And the Stanley Brothers in the beginning created a path for all Musicians to follow.So with this in mind i like to think that we all are carrying that torch which was started by Mr.Monroe spread by the Stanley Brothers and is now carried in one shape form or fashion by all those that pick this great style of music.I only hope that we don't loose touch of this great sound by PLUGGING IN.I feel that this music is so clean pure and simple by the true sound of all stringed instuments.I do however realize that we must use amps to spead that sound but as far as the instuments go let's stay pure and simple.So for all those at the festivals, those on stage and those picking inside your living rooms just keep carrying that torch and playing that sound because we that play listen and help spread this music are carring that torch.As far as Ricky goes i just think that his relationship with Bill made him realize that he wanted to help keep this style of music strong.After all who in the Music Bussiness has never heard of Ricky Skaggs? So with this said i leave you pickers with a phrase from an old wise man:Remember always K.I.S.S.= Keep It Simple Stupid! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[futrconslr]

[QUOTE].After all who in the Music Bussiness has never heard of Ricky Skaggs?

I think you were kidding here right? Skaggs is the ULTIMATE insider. They ate his lunch in the early 90s so he came back to "where he should have been all along" If he could still sell records for the dark side I promise you he would go back faster than you could say "Kentucky Thunder"

[GTison]

Scotty. on the butch robins book. I think I would buy the paper-back version. I think the book offers an inside look at Monroe, but the book is mostly about Robins. So it's about 95 % about Robins. That is interesting. Too much time is spent IMHO about him getting high and drunk and who with, etc., That is not very interesting. just as it's not very interesting to hear someone tell about it in real life. I think his point in telling all that stuff is the trouble it caused him and what state of mind he was in, and what it did to him in his life other than music. ( Mental problems etc.) He is very open with it all. But sometimes it is just kinda rambling. Somethings are priceless though. His assertions about the origins of bluegrass and "the music" are well thought out. His views of spiritual things are, well, mixed up. He did have something to say about the torchbearer subject I think.

[Bradley]

[QUOTE]If he could still sell records for the dark side I promise you he would go back faster than you could say "Kentucky Thunder"

At this point in his life I would say No to this.Heres why...he is almost 50,has made a good living for a boy from Eastern Ky,and at this point he is at the top of the BGrass field.I think he is enjoying the versatility that the has with producing and working with other bands.Also, from what I hear his youngest daughter has became quite the Banjo Player and his youngest son a flatpicker.I look for the family thing to happen with He, Sharon, and the Kids sometime down the road.

Just my .02

[timeoutlaw59]

Well it easy to see futrconslr view on music is about a wide as looking douwn through a straw.What you need to understand is that your life belongs to them till your contract is paid in full! scaggs is where he wants to be,if he wanted to be in country music he would still be spitting out top 10 and going through the motions.Bradley i agree!! this man is where he wants to be with his Skaggs label helping new artist put their sound on platic and living life as a seccessful husband and father.After all futrconslr this country failure as you think came from poor eastern Kentucky topped the country charts for years and made tons of money.Once his controling contract ended it gave him the freedom to record his music and do what he wanted.He chose to play bluegrass and what does he do.....Gee he tops the bluegrass charts more than once with his 4 or 5 cd's.No this man is not washed up he just got fed up! so now he is helping to produce the music he loves the way music should be produced with the input of the musicians something he not able to do while recording country!So let's look at the big picture and include all the facts so that we really know why he left country music.So wiht that said my comment to you futrconslr is K.I.S.S !!

[John Zimm]

I don't understand the animosity towards Ricky Skaggs. I saw him twice last winter and was completely blown away. I was especially impressed with Cody Kilby and Andy Leftwich. Actually, each member of the band has a certain niche in which they really shine-Paul Brewster has the strongest voice in the band, Jimmy Mills is a great banjo player, and Cody and Andy have amazing talent. isn't that in the Monroe tradition-surround yourself with a great band? Where would Monroe have gotten without Flatt and Scruggs?


I mean lets face it, Chris Thile can play circles around Bill Monroe! Alot of musicians are jealous of Chris, including me. He is so far ahead(musically)of other mandolin players, he's scary good!
I agree here. I wouldn't call Skaggs the torchbearer because he is doing what has already been done. Thile is taking the music another step further. Yeah, without Monroe there may not have been a Thile (although this point is debateable), but that doesn't preclude Thile's being the man on the top right now. He's already the guy many of us are trying to play like, and if I were a prophet I would predict that decades from now he will be the legend for whom people are trying to find an heir.

-John.

[jlb]

Or he could fade away as the next Yngwie Malmstein.

To be honest, I think Thile is so good that his talent flies right over the head of most casual fans...just too much information to process. His Nickel Creek gig is a little more digestable, but I think outside of the Nickel Creek youth movement, I dare say his cult following exists only within the mandolin community itself.

[mandodon]

I tend to agree. #Thile is a beast on mandolin with seemingly super-human abilities, but I would not call his music timeless by any stretch of the imagination. #Perhaps timeless to the mandolin player 20 years down the road trying to work up his licks to become the next gun-blazer, but I doubt the work he is putting out, to include the Nickel Creek stuff, will become "must-buy" classics for fans in the future.

Still, I think the guy can execute just about anything his imagination would come up with, and who knows what he will lay down on record in the future. #He's still quite young.

Who is the torchbearer of Bill Monroe's music? #It can't be Ricky Skaggs, because he lets guitar pickers play breaks! #Del McCoury all the way.

[futrconslr]

After all futrconslr this country failure as you think came from poor eastern Kentucky topped the country charts for years and made tons of money.

I never said he was a failure. He was/is very successful. What I said was he is an insider. He packs more clout on the row than merely a bluegrass picker.

Once his controling contract ended it gave him the freedom to record his music and do what he wanted.

I believe his label dropped him. I think it had more to do with his looks (getting older) and declining demand for "traditional sounding artist" than musical freedom.

No this man is not washed up...
I never said he was.....I believe I stated that I liked his playing..just not his personality.
I don't understand the animosity towards Ricky Skaggs.....me either. I saw him at the Ryman last week.

So let's look at the big picture and include all the facts so that we really know why he left country music.
Why would that be and he hasnt left as far as I know.
So wiht that said my comment to you futrconslr is K.I.S.S !!
Learn to spell and I will let you call me stupid.

Next time I decide to break out of group think I'll keep my opinion to myself! LOL

[timeoutlaw59]

Then i owe you an Apology futrconslr guess i was to defensive and im very sorry for the remarks i made regarding your view.It was wrong because everyone should be able to voice their thoughts and feelings on any subject without wise remarks. Again my Apology.

[futrconslr]

No problem. Now to quote Mr. Adams....Who is the torchbearer? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Moose]

Now THAT'S "adult"... ; and now...the beat goes on!?. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[futrconslr]

[QUOTE]I look for the family thing to happen with He, Sharon, and the Kids sometime down the road.

I heard that too. I also heard they put on some kind of Christmas show down in Florida when the bus bringing the rest of the band broke down. I think the general feeling was it was a great show.

[evanreilly]

Keep in mind that Monroe had many facets; he was an innovative stylist on the mandolin; he was a band leader whose band played the Opry for over 50 years; he was an inductee into four Halls of Fame; he wrote a ton of songs.
Them some mighty big shoes to fill!!!

[Salty Dog]

A belated reply to MandoJeremy's emphatic denial (dated 6/28) to my assertion that Nickel Creek bills themselves as "Bluegrass". #They absolutely did that in all advertisements for an appearance this past year at Broome County (NY) Community College.

[twombo]

So, what about this shark of Ricky Skaggs' that plays the mandolin. I wanna hear more about this.

Dump Del because of his voice..... You sir, go sit in the corner!!!!.... that is a very bad thing you said. sister mari Louise might just put a whoop a-- on ya! Man, that is a hill country high tenor if I ever heard one. Kinda shrill an maybe a little theady... that is the stuff!!! Do Not Dump Del!!

Torch Bearer, Don't ask me... too philosophical. I agree with the guy that said we all are. Monroe's body is long dead but his music thrives all the same.

Damn right, Bluegrass ain't Bluegrass without the banjo esp. Scruggs style. Don't forget who hired Earl.

Salty Dog - please go back and submit a link to an interview or quote from a member of the band. #Local promotions are not sufficient evidence. #

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Hoovetone]

The original question was : Is Scaggs the torch bearer? Sure he is! No question! Why wouldn't he be? Of course we all can help. 7 pages of everyone's opinions. Just answer the question. YES

[Hoovetone]

Now that that is settled, Let's talk more about Del McCoury. I really hate to here him sing. His voice is almost embarassing.

[dave]

"The original question was : Is Scaggs the torch bearer? Sure he is! No question! Why wouldn't he be? Of course we all can help. 7 pages of everyone's opinions. Just answer the question."
NO. It has been said before every picker that plays a tune keeps the music alive, this music was here before Ricky, it survived when he went pop and it was here when he came back, and it will be here when he is long gone. Just because someone can pick faster or fancier than you doesn't mean that they love the music anymore than you do.
Dave.

[GVD]

Hoovetone Posted on July 13 2004, 19:46
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now that that is settled, Let's talk more #about Del McCoury. I really hate to here him sing. His voice is almost embarassing.

From what I hear it's almost as embarrassing as trollers who don't know how to spell! # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

GVD

[mandopete]

Now that that is settled, Let's talk more #about Del McCoury. I really hate to here him sing. His voice is almost embarassing.
?

It's embarrassing how GOOD Del McCoury's voice is. #I would give my soul to Satan to be able to sing like that (sorry Satan, I have to rescind the offer). #

Not sure what this thread has morphed into, but I still say Del McCoury is the current "torchbearer" for bluegrass music. #Take a listen to the new re-issue on Rounder called High, Lonesome and Blue and then come talk to me about Ricky Skaggs. #Ricky is a good performer and a talented musician, but he is no Del McCoury when it comes to bluegrass!

Man, I'm glad I got that off my chest.

[Darryl Wolfe]

I can honestly say that the first time I heard Del McCoury in 1967 at Berryville Va...my hair stood up on my arms...what a voice. probably the highest clearest tenor I had ever heard..And at the time I was a Monroe worshipper.....seems like a torch to me

[Hoovetone]

O K I'm sorry. #I really don't hate Del's voice. He does the best he can. Sing on buddy! It is definitely a hard core bluegrass sound. ( Kinda like Billman Row).

[mandoJeremy]

Yeah SaltyDog, I would love to see that link myself because every interview I have ever read of Nickel Creek they seem to push the point that they are NOT bluegrass. They may have roots there but I think that is all they will confess to. And, no they are NOT bluegrass. For the record, I also can't stand Del's voice either. So nasal, so.....just yuck!

[mandoJeremy]

Ronnie can pick though!http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Garrett]

Maybe Del's voice should be part of a litmus test for whether you like bluegrass or not:

Voice test:

1. Dr. Ralph only (Casual fan).

2. and Duffey (More than casual fan)

3. and Del (Bluegrass Fan)

4. and Bill Monroe (Hardcore bluegrass fan, likely own a festival worthy RV).

5. and Buzz Busby (You bleed blue).

What if you only like Duffey?

And, as I frequently repeat to my sons, I don't confuse not liking a performer with "that performer not having talent/value".

[Moose]

Well.., well ; most times - perhaps too much - it's "picky" Ricky as a topic ; there's always been "I-can't-stand-Monroe's-singing" ; let's not forget "Who's-the-best-tenor-singer" - NOW.., it's "I-can't-stand-Del's-singing ; too "nasal". Looks like we've(some of us,anyhow), have found a new "picky-picky" topic for discussion. - S-O-S!##.., different target. - Ho-hum.... - Well, cary on, folks... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

[Scott Tichenor]

No opinion I want to share on this discussion but thought this would be of interest: this article about Skaggs just posted to the Boise Weekly (http://www.boiseweekly.com/more.php?id=2591_0_1_0_M).

[Albert Whiting]

cool article

[Moose]

Hey Scott! - Thanks for the "heads-up" - Very good & informativ e article. I could find only one "questionable" piece of info... - "....and his band Thunder Mountain". - Last I heard it was Kentucky Thunder. Perhaps I stand corrected - or does the columnist/contriburor.. - Again, thanks. Moose. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[Scotti Adams]

..Moose..you caught that too huh? and I never thought he had a "Robert Goulet" mustache http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

[GVD]

Well since there appears to be a few folks who don't exactly like Del's voice maybe we should hear from some of those who do.

The IBMA has awarded him male vocalist of the year 4 times (no one has won it more) to go along with the 1 individual Entertainer of the year award and 6 the band has won.

A quick web search revealed these quotes about his "embarrassing" http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif voice:

"...it is, as ever, Del McCoury's vocals that hit home the hardest, epitomizing the "high lonesome" sound of his old boss, bluegrass patriarch Bill Monroe"

"But I think Del McCoury should be heard and seen by anyone and everyone with even the slightest taste for roots music because he's "one of those chosen people who are born to sing bluegrass..."

"McCoury's airy, supple tenor is like the voice of God's own best friend, while his rhythm guitar is a bluegrass bedrock of ages -- a foundation even an earthquake can't shake"

"Impressed by the young singers perfect bluegrass tenor, Monroe invited him to join his Blue Grass Boys"

"McCoury's voice is one in a million...the best bluegrass voice I've ever heard"

GVD

[Mike Bunting]

Amen, this ain't elevator music!

[Bradley]

I never really liked Del up until about a year ago.It was then that I saw him and the Band for the first time....At that time I really took a liking to them. I have never seen a group of guys enjoy what they are doing as much as this group,or have a relationship with their fans the way they do.If you have not seen them live you are missing a treat!!

Whether you like them or not is a pure taste thing.But lets face it there will only be one Del,and as someone said before "That boy was born to sing Bluegrass"

[mandomood]

for some of the folks who have complained about Del's voice, I've asked if they actually listened to what he was saying...that high lonesome sound is often about pain and the message fits the voice.

Some folks are listening for a 'good singer' as opposed to just listening to what he is 'saying' or singing...

hard to imagine certain songs without Del's voice in them....lead or harmony wise over the years...

it's all about acquired tastes I suppose...

[mandoJeremy]

Well Jason, I actually have listened to his voice quite a few times since we were on the same festivals as them and I did go out and listen intently. I happen to love Jason and his fiddle playing and the whole band rips it, including Del's guitar playing. About acquired taste, I like Monroe, I like Duffey, and I like plenty of traditionalists but for me his voice still doesn't sound pleasant! There again, it is just my opinion but it doesn't take away from the studies I have done in bluegrass music, nor does it take away from my musical abilities....and that is the bottom line isn't it?

[cutbait2]

IBMA male vocalist of the year 4x pretty much says it all. Del does it the old way. unlike Duffy and others who smoothed it out for the urban audiences. but you're intitled to your opinion, even if you're wrong......:) http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[mandodon]

I've noticed alot of folks from up North don't like the twangy sound of bluegrass signers like Del McCoury, or the twangy sound of country pop-singers like Ricky Skaggs (sorry, had to get that cheap shot in).

Conversely, growing up in the South with that sound, I find it real awkward to hear bluegrass music sung without that twang (i.e. Nickel Creek, Alison Kraus)...too stale for my taste.

It's all just a matter of what you like, and there's plenty of room in the world for all of our individual tastes.

[Garrett]

Don,

I'm a born and bred Bostonian and there's nothing a like more than the twang of a high tenor.

[Scott Tichenor]

..Moose..you caught that too huh? and I never thought he had a "Robert Goulet" mustache http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif
Left, Robert. Right, Ricky

[Scotti Adams]

lol ..Scott....Roberts has got more of a handlebar look then Rickys.....dont ya think?

[cutbait2]

I don't know. country music is actually fairly big "up north" especially in the central states. Alison K has a fairly typical accent for her part of the country (southern ohio?). Remember Bill was from northern K and spent alot of time in Ohio, Illinois. also Del is a western Pennsylvania boy. all that is "up north" to me. all that said a more "polished" tone has always had wider appeal inside and outside of the traditional region. although "the twang" is probably more appreciated in the deep south

[Scotti Adams]

..Allison is from Chicago origionally..

[Bradley]

I have a good friend from Alabama who always tries to degrade anything if it isnt from Alabama....It usually starts out "you all northerners...or,down south we did it this way".

Last Time I checked Bill sang about the "BlueMoon of Kentucky", "Rocky Top is still in Tennessee", and "I'm going back to the old home" wasnt sung about any place in Miss,Ala,Georgia,or Texas. The twang comes from the appalachian region of Kentucky,Tennessee,Carolinas, and the Virginias.Of course,most southerners dont consider that "the blessed south"

[mandoJeremy]

You know, it's funny that I am from the "south" in North Carolina and if I am not mistaken Del was actually born here (Bakersville, NC, on Feb. 1, 1939). That doesn't mean that I want to hear that nasal sounding singing in grass and that is my opinion. I do remember when I was playing on the road that a lot of our shows were "up north". I am not criticizing Del at all, just stating that it is not for me and it's that simple. It's not about regions for me, just about singing and shall you guys leave out Russell Moore when it comes to awards? Or Ronnie Bowman for that matter, there's a real voice! Now back to the original thread....SKAGGS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Salty Dog]

Reply to mandojeremy and tim-n-VA. #Of course I don't have a link to an interview where a member of Nickel Creek billed themselves as "bluegrass". #I don't know whether members of the band do or do not. #What I do know is that numerous advertisements billed them as "bluegrass" at that appearance with or without their knowledge. Whether I have an interview link or not has nothing to do with what was advertised in the paper and on TV locally (aka "the facts"). #I was just stating a fact that I observed (didn't claim I was ready to prove it in a court of law!). #I'm sure the records of their appearance in Broome County could be researched and the claims proven if anyone wanted to take the time (I don't, as I was here and read them), but my credibility is obviously being questioned, and I welcome Tim-n-VA to discredit anything I said.
# #My greatest concern is how many young people went to the concert (it was a sell-out or near that) thinking they were going to hear bluegrass music and what their short-term and long-term thoughts might be about what they heard. #It doesn't matter what the interviews say, it is what the advertisements that attract customers and shape their views do - if the promoters call it bluegrass then that's what people will expect to hear, or think they heard.
I also do not buy the argument that "local promoters are not sufficient evidence" - if they aren't then who should people who are looking for certain kinds of music to rely on???
# # I change my greatest concern - it is why I am bothering to respond to these less than logical and obviously antagonistic (towards me) comments. #I will go the way of Willie and others and let these newly appointed geniuses and antagonists take over for a while. #I'm out of here for a while - goodbye.

[mandoJeremy]

Hey Salty, I am not criticizing you at all! I just know from countless interviews that Nickel Creek definitely says they are not bluegrass. Of course that is the normal argument around here. I can say that I learned a ton of stuff from the old timers around here and loved it. My appreciation for traditional bluegrass runs very deep, but on the same line I discovered that there was so much more I could do musically. Look at all of the great innovators of our time musically. Bela, Tony, Sam, and even Mon. Had they all stuck with tradition we would all be very much different. Now, please back to the original subject.....Skaggs.

[GTison]

yeah del was born in Carolina but lived most of his life in PA! I live in the South but where I'm from singing about the moutains is kinda odd sometimes. But I still love it Del is great.

Salty Dog - #I didn't question your credibility. #That would have been something along the lines of "those ads didn't say that". #Heck, the local Borders puts Nickel Creek CDs in the bluegrass section. Lots of people call them a bluegrass band.# I was just making the distinction between members of the band saying they are a bluegrass band and someone else saying that they are a bluegrass band. #Not being a musician, I'm not sure how much control they have over what promoters say. #If they have final approval on local ads, then your case is made.

I love Ricky Skaggs. I dont know why anyone would put him down. I am not to fond of nickel creek though. They arnt the raw bluegrass that im used to.

[futrconslr]

[QUOTE]Of course,most southerners dont consider that "the blessed south"

Its not our fault they have never come to the light! :-)