Question about my f-5l

[stepsafer]

I have had several different responses from professionals as what the 'L' stands for in the F-5L title.
One said it stood for Loar. Seems for me every F series is a Loar...
Another said it stood for long neck meaning it has a longer neck than a standard mandolin... 15 frets to the neck
Some one said it was the just the series ID kinda like
Preparation H (what happened to Preparations A thru G?)
I just would like a real answer with some way to verify it.

[Greenmando]

I understood the L was for Lacquer.
F-5L "The Fern" (http://www.gibson.com/en-us/Divisions/Gibson%20Original/Gibson%20Mandolins/f-5L%20_The%20Fern_/)

[woodwizard]

I too think the "L" stands for Loar. As in the F5L & A5L. Maybe Big Joe can enlighten us here. I think you could special order a varnish F5L.

[Givson]

The L stood for Loar. #Gibson started using this terminology for its F5 model in the late 70s/early 80s. #It was Gibson's first effort to create a mandolin closer to the F5s of yesteryear.

[fredfrank]

I too think the "L" stands for Loar. As in the F5L & A5L. Maybe Big Joe can enlighten us here. I think you could special order a varnish F5L.
I used to own a Varnished Fern, and the label referred to it as a V-Fern.

[Gutbucket]

L is for loud. This is the mandolin you should use when playing with banjos and accordians.

[Bernie Daniel]

Well I don't know about your F-5L -- but on mine it stands for Loar! # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[MikeEdgerton]

This has been discussed a few times before here. The L stood for Loar. From the Gibson website:

"The F-5L, introduced in 1978, marked the beginning of a return to the specifications of Lloyd Loar's original F-5 Master Model mandolins of 1922-24."

Prior to this it was simply an F-5.

[mandolirius]

<This has been discussed a few times before here. The L stood for Loar. From the Gibson website:

"The F-5L, introduced in 1978, marked the beginning of a return to the specifications of Lloyd Loar's original F-5 Master Model mandolins of 1922-24."

Prior to this it was simply an F-5. >

Yeah, yeah, yeah...I know all that. My question is, what does the "F" stand for? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[metalmandolin]

Florentine?

[mandolirius]

<Florentine?>

Ok, then what does the "A" stand for? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[ned armando]

artist

[f5loar]

Fredia Florentine according to Lester Flatt.
While the quote from the Gibson site states the name Lloyd Loar it does not explain what the "L" stands for.
If it was for the reintroduction of a Lloyd Loar model F-5 would it not be the new F-5LL? L stands for "lousy" attempt at trying to re-create the Lloyd Loar F-5 of the classic early 20's.

[Bernie Daniel]

f5loar: #L stands for "lousy" attempt at trying to re-create the Lloyd Loar F-5 of the classic early 20's.

Lousy? #Ouch! Now that stings! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[stepsafer]

Well, I am still a bit confused. Referring to the comment asking what the F stands. I do remember reading the F stands for Florentine. I still am looking documentation from a reliable sources stating what the L stands. I even checked the Gibson website and they are even vague about the title...
My research does seem to point to a Loar connection.

[f5loar]

You need to get ahold of some of the guys that worked in the mandolin department at Gibson in 1978 that are maybe still living. Dick Doan would be one of the guys I remember. Maybe some guys here with '78 to '82 F5L could tells us who signed theirs would help locate. I doubt seriously anyone working at Gibson now was there in '78 era. Maybe some of them are still working up at Heritage in Kalamazoo, MI.

[MikeEdgerton]

The F has been discussed before as well and the real answer is nobody knows. If you look at things you might assume that Orville named the A style as the first in his list of mandolins successes. There was probably a B, C, D, and E before he got to F but that like any other explanation is totally a guess. It doesn't stand for Florentine.

[GTison]

THIS is starting to get good. Hello Mike , How do you know "F" doesn't stand for Florentine?

Mandolin1944: Does your '02 model say on the label "F5L" on the model number line?

[MikeEdgerton]

According to the Gruhn book the Florentine for F is a guess but, just for giggles let's assume that F stands for Florentine. Then you have to answer some other Orville era questions. What does A stand for? What does H stand for? Finally, in the Orville Gibson guitar world, what does L stand for (it isn't Loar, it predates Lloyd by two decades)? If I'm reading this right three other body sizes and styles got a letter designation for no reason and the F is suddenly Florentine. Gibson was giving body sizes and styles numbers before they built their first F, why does it suddenly have a name associated with it? Other mandolin styles have been called Florentine as well.

[JEStanek]

Read this thread on Gibson Letter designations (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=27;t=47883) of old.

Jamie

[MikeEdgerton]

I'd say that might raise some questions on the entire F=Florentine thing. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Bernie Daniel]

bowfinger: Mandolin1944: Does your '02 model say on the label "F5L" on the model number line?

No it says Style: "Fern" then the serial #20423020
The other lable signed by Danny Roberts on April 23, 2002.

[Bernie Daniel]

Concerning the "F" in the F-style mandolin.

Driving back to North Dakota from Maryland following my discharge from the Army in April 1972 I stopped at the Gibson factory in Kalamazoo, MI. #

It was pretty much a waste of time as they had really very little setup for customer service so I did not get to see too much. #

But I did get to see a few things including some piles of lumber and a quick glimpse of one of the shop floors --wood working equipment and tables and a few workers milling around.

There was a pile of either tops or bottoms and bin of necks for F-mandolins and I did ask why is it called an "F".

He said it was because the shape remined Orville Gibson of the fancy script letter "F". #

Take if for what it is worth but it can from Kalamazoo at least.

[stepsafer]

After a short Google session, I ran across an article of a man who played an A-5L mandolin in the Late eighties, It was a one of two A models made by Loar for two women who had trouble playing the Florentine models. The article states the whereabouts of these instruments is unknown but it does put a definate word (Loar) to attach to the L following the the model number. So My question is answered. Thanks for all the various imputs and opinions. I actually have an F-5L made in 1980 signed by Jerry Rowland.

[GTison]

Mike, Thank you for the explanation. I never considered these before . Also on the referred thread the last one from Beinborn about the "C" and "D" designations were more evidence for this theory. There are missing letters but those could have been skipped over or perhaps rejected body styles or some one off peice. Did the Harp mandolin have a letter designation?

Mandolin1944: I submit that you don't have an "F5L" you have a "Fern". The reason I bring this up is that I had a 96 F5L that I traded for an '02 "Fern" like yours. I saw the differences in the construction etc. and found one I couldn't live without. I also know you could be using the "L" to help reduce confusion over different models. I also just wondered if there were some that had "F5L fern" on the label. I might add that not long ago I played an early 80's F5L which was every bit as good as mine in sound. The binding was disintegrating in several spots however and the bridge was cut down very low.

Stepsafer : Do you have a link to that article? I've only heard of the one A5 Loar had signed.

[earthsave]

What's the G stand for in F5G?

[Bernie Daniel]

bowfinger: #I submit that you don't have an "F5L" you have a "Fern". #The reason I bring this up is that I had a 96 F5L that I traded for an '02 "Fern" like yours. #I saw the differences in the construction etc. and found one I couldn't live without.

Do you happen to recall some of those construction differences by chance? #Thanks

My guess it that they are two different names for the same model. #Maybe they started emphasising the Fern name -- in contrast to F5-L as they continued to strive for the original construction? #Someone on this site will certainly know the answer.

Janet Davis Music seems to use the names interchangably in their adverts. #Here is Gibson's description of the F5-Fern:

Gibson Bluegrass F-5 'The Fern' Mandolin Cremona Sunburst

Gibson luthiers painstakingly handcraft the F-5 'The Fern' Mandolin to replicate the 1925 original notable for its abalone fern headstock inlay. It has a tuned parallel tone bar with a carved spruce top and maple back and sides to generate that world-famous tone. A sumptuous finish, hand-engraved gold-plated hardware, and triple binding all speak to its vintage pedigree. Includes Gibson hardshell case.

[f5loar]

Don't forget there are a dozen or so of Loar signed Ferns.

[MikeEdgerton]

Mike, Thank you for the explanation. I never considered these before . Also on the referred thread the last one from Beinborn about the "C" and "D" designations were more evidence for this theory. There are missing letters but those could have been skipped over or perhaps rejected body styles or some one off peice. Did the Harp mandolin have a letter designation?
I always wondered about the missing letters as well. The lyre mandolin on the Gibson label, was that perhaps Style B or C or D or even E? We know Orville built it. I seriously doubt the "reminded Orville of the shape of an F" theory as by the time that story was told Orville was dead and gone more than a few generations of luthiers at the Gibson plant and they were probably asking the same questions we are. To me it follows that if everything else had a letter that it was probably a way to catalog a style. In the beginning Orville might have used it to designate the models he was building but that is a plain wild a$$ guess on my part. It just seems logical. I don't know if the harp mandolin had a letter designation.

[GTison]

[QUOTE]Do you happen to recall some of those construction differences by chance? Thanks
My guess it that they are two different names for the same model. Maybe they started emphasising the Fern name -- in contrast to F5-L as they continued to strive for the original construction? Someone on this site will certainly know the answer.


The main 2 differences in F5L and a new Fern is: the way the top an back are carved with less arch also the Change of the neck joint from mortise & tennon (w/bolts) and the compound dovetail joint. The Abalone fern is beautiful but doesn't look like any old fern picture I've ever seen.

click this link to get a great read Question 2 answers it I think.

mandozine: Charlie Derrington interview (http://www.mandozine.com/resources/CGOW/derrington.php)

[Bernie Daniel]

bowfinger, thanks for that great link. #I read the whole thing of course including question 2 -- but I really don't come to the same conclusion as you do. In fact near the end Charlie says:

"The current F-5 Fern (formerly the F-5L) is a reproduction of the mid-20s Gibson Ferns. No changes have been made in the past year." #Thus this impies a name change to me.

I definately do not think that all F-5L models had the bolt secured mortise & tennon neck joint. #That joint was used by Gibson in the 1970's under Norlin right? #I have had a couple of 1970's Gibson F-styles and that joint is pretty easy to distinguish from the dovetail if you know what to look for.

I think Gibson went back to the dovetail in the late 1980's.

The real Flatirons (i.e., Carlson's company 1979 - 1987)used the compound dovetail joint from the start.

Then Gibson bought Flatriron in 1987 and opened the Montana Gibson OAI factory in 1989 and I thought that is when the F5-L were started so I would be surprised to hear any of then had anything but a dovetail joint. #My understanding is that all Gibson mandolins built after acquiring Flatiron have a dovetail joint. But I could be wrong. #

Did Gibson perhaps make some F-5L models before they bought Flatiron? #The earliest F-5L I have seen is a 1989 model (post Flatiron) and I sure it was dovetail neck.

Anyway I am more than pleased with my Gibson which I guess I will call a "Fern" from now on! # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Tom Mullen]

The Montana made F5L had the mortise and tennon bolted neck.
Mine is from Dec 94 and says F5L as the model number. It is a butt kicking hoss with a deep sweet tone.
The bolt can be clearly seen inside.

[Bernie Daniel]

56 Gibson Hoss: The Montana made F5L had the mortise and tennon bolted neck. Mine is from Dec 94 and says F5L as the model number.

Ok. #I finally see the picture.

So it looks like when Gibson took over the Flatiron factory in 1987 they built "Gibson" mandolins with tone bars and m&t neck joints and "Flatiron" mandolins with x-bracing and dovetail neck joints at the same facility then?

I see from bowfinger's more detailed information the the Gibson Neck joint thread (see link) that the change over on the Gibson-badged mandolins did not occur until 1999 at the Nashville factory not earlier at Montana as I had suggested. #

Gibson Neck Joint (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=12;t=49917)

In retrospect I should have realized this to be the case as the special Bill Monroe signature F5 mandolins all had the bolt.

Thanks for the clarifications.

[stepsafer]

I had the unfortunate experience of leaving my 1980 F-5L in a car what got up to about 130 degrees inside on a hot summer
Montana day. The glue melted and the mortise joint pulled right out of the body of the mandolin. No bolt to hold it in. My luthier fashioned a dovetail joint when he rebuilt for me. Been good every since..still no bolt though. And I wouldn't trade this mandolin for anything..

[Bernie Daniel]

Thanks for all the details.

OK I have summarized what I learned from this string -- can someone please see if this is correct and if not edit my errors and/or fill in still missing parts of the story on the construction history of the Gibson F5-L model?

Thanks!

Here is what I have pieced together:

1978 -- F5-L model introduced from Kalamazoo factory (according to stepsafer) the neck joint was a mortise and tennon joint but lacked the locking bolt.

1987 Gibson buys Flatiron and then in 1989 opens the Montana OAI factory -- the F-5L model is now built there with the mortise and tennon joint and a locking bolt.

1996 Gibson mandolin production moved from Montana to Nashville and the F5-L is still constructed with the mortise and tennon neck joint and a locking bolt.

1999 Derrington changes the neck joint to dovetail and the changes the top and back graduations to Loar specs and also drops the F5-L designation and replaces it with F5-Fern.

Can anyone edit and correct this senario as required?

Thanks!

[GTison]

I'm pretty sure that the "L" was changed to "Fern" in early '02, I used to be sure about this. If you have one from '01 or '02 chime in.

Also I thought the the bolts came in before they purchased Flatiron. Also I'd be surprised if Flatirons post Gibson takeover had a compound dovetail. I would also wonder about before the buyout. They only made the F models a few years before then.

[Big Joe]

Gibson and Flatiron used the mortise/tenon/bolt neck all during the Montana era. This was changed in late 99 with only a few from that year having a dovetail neck joint.

The "L" in F5L does NOT refer to Loar according to Loar and mandolin expert, the late Charlie Derrington. We had this discussion several times over the years. The L designation was moved to Fern in 03 officially.

[woodwizard]

Quote: The "L" in F5L does NOT refer to Loar ...

So if the "L" does not refer to Loar then what does it refer to? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Now I'm confused http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Bernie Daniel]

Big Joe:The "L" in F5L does NOT refer to Loar according to Loar and mandolin expert, the late Charlie Derrington. #We had this discussion several times over the years. #The L designation was moved to Fern in 03 officially.
[QUOTE]

Thanks a lot for the for the details on the model switch over and construction details.

But then what did you guys (you and Charlie) think the "L" stands for in if not "Loar"?

Obviously it must stand for whatever the person who first conjured it up had in mind right? #

When the name was first used what did "Gibson" or the marketing staff have in mind when the moniker "F-5L" was first written on a mandolin lable?

That would have been in 1978 at the Kalamazoo factory right? #

So not to be arguementative or disrespectful in any way but was Mr. Derrington with Gibson then? #(I guess that I do not know when he started with the company - but he was not with them in Michigan was he?). #

If he was not an employee in 1978 then his opinon -- after the fact is just that -- an opinion? (I acknowledge that he might have discussed this WITH the person who did come up with the name).

So please if you have insight on what it does stand for (or what you and Charlie thought it stood for) or even who can up with the name originally I am sure many of us would like to have whatever information is available.

Thanks much. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[GTison]

NO FAIR JOE!!! #You shouldn't just throw that out there and run.
Come on Big Joe, tell us the secret.

[Bernie Daniel]

Since no one seems to be able to tell us what the "L" actually stands for I move that we declare in to stand for "Loar"! Is there a second to the motion?

[f5loar]

From the Gruhn Vintage Guidebook: F-5L - reissue of Loar
F-5 (actually closer to 1925 Fern peghead inlay,gold plated hardware) introduced: 1978.
So from that statement one would think the L does stand for Loar. It concerns me Big Joe has not come back with a response on what he thinks the L stands for.
However Gruhn gives no indication as to what the G would stand for in the F5G. #I figured out they used the G after Sears paint (Good,Better,Best).

[stepsafer]

Could it be that the G in the F-5G simply stands for Gibson?

[MikeEdgerton]

Could it be that the G in the F-5G simply stands for Gibson?
Then the entire line would have that designation.

[Bernie Daniel]

Could it be that the G in the F-5G simply stands for Gibson?

G = GREAT! (VALUE, TONE & DEAL) http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[mandopete]

G = Grab some popcorn!

[Tom C]

Maybe the L does stand for Loar but at the time they only had a late 20's Fern to go by for specs. -"Who would know the difference" attitude. Then maybe Charlie fixed it all.

[metalmandolin]

Mine, for "research purposes" is dated August 2, 2000 and signed by Sim Daley. It says F5L. I assume that means dovetail and replica Fern carving, albeit without the "Fern" designation. Any takers?

[Big Joe]

If I recall the designation L was for the lacquer, but certainly not Loar. He had been fired by Gibson many years before and was not, at that time, considered a hero or a mythical figure in instrument building (1978). Charlie was there soon after that but I don't think he was there in 78. Gibson began production in Nashville in 75 with part of its line produced here and some in Kalamazoo.

I have no idea what the G stands for. Neither did Charlie. In any case, until Charlie returned to OAI to restore the mandolin to its historical prominence no one was concerned with what Loar had done. He was not thought about much at all. This is evident from several things. Most importantly is the lack of any reference to him or his work until much later. Second is the way the mandolins were built. Loar never considered a mortise and tenon joint or use of bolts in the neck. Gibson chose that method in 87 but for three decades before that chose a pretty sloppy mortise and tenon joint. There are many other issues also. For example, the body dimensions, headstock shape, finish, color, scroll, etc. etc. etc.

We look back NOW and try to place importance on issues that were not considered at that time. If it makes you feel good to call your F5L named after Loar, that is fine, but not correct.

Hope this helps. This is all I have for you at the moment.

[Bernie Daniel]

Big Joe,

Thanks for the clarifcation -- what you suggest certainly sounds logical and rings authentic. #Makes all the more sense in light of things like the F-5V (for varnish).

Good prespective on Loar. #It would be interesting to find out exactly when the value of the Llyod Loar signature became fully recognized. #

Bill Monroe pick up a Loar F5 in Florida but I am sure that the sound of the mandolin -- not th the signature on the label was the primary attraction of the insturment. #

I wonder if Rogef Siminoff's notes and writings on Loar deal with this?

[maj34]

When did Gibson introduce the F5G? #Is there any chance that G stands for "gloss?" #Was there a difference in top or back/sides finish between the G and the L models originally?

[GTison]

I think they were always gloss top & back. Although I have seen some with a deep maroon or maybe mahogany stain colored back.

If Joe says Charlie didn't know what G stood for perhaps there was no mnemonic reason. I'd think one of them would know if anyone knew. But Perhaps Bruce Webber might know. Was he around then?