Lawrence smart 10 string [Archive]

Spruce

Dec-28-2007, 1:01pm

OK, now we're talkin'...

I've been waiting for some makers to dive into the Novax pool on a 10-string acoustic, and it's great to see Lawrence taking it on....

I think it could be a marvelous solution to an old old problem...

jmcgann

Dec-28-2007, 1:04pm

The future is now http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

billhay4

Dec-28-2007, 1:24pm

Is there a source for how to configure a fretboard this way? Is it a proprietary method?
Thanks,
Bill

trevor

Dec-28-2007, 1:26pm

Wow! What are the scale lengths?

Doug Hoople

Dec-28-2007, 1:26pm

Wow! Didn't know this was happening. Excellent!! The ground is swelling! Where do I get mine??!!

Spruce

Dec-28-2007, 1:29pm

"The future is now."

It's my understanding that the fanned fretting system is an old invention...
Like 150 years ago or so??

It just seems like such a classic solution to an old problem of getting all the strings to work on a 10-string...

I've got a 5-string electric with fanned frets, and love it. I've been wanting a 10-string acoustic ever since I laid fingers on the electric. Glad to see the idea getting tried by some good makers....

BTW, they are not as difficult to play as one might think.
The fingers seem to find their way after a couple hours or so....

jmcgann

Dec-28-2007, 1:31pm

yeah, that's it...everything old is new again... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

Treblemaker

Dec-28-2007, 1:40pm

Gives me ALSMAS (A.L. Smart Mandolin Aquisition Syndrome)...

Yummeeee

Treblemaker
(Smart #124)

first string

Dec-28-2007, 1:54pm

Very cool. I bet it will sound great. Though it does hurt my eyes just to look at it--which isn't to say that it's not beautiful, because it is. It just looks really twisted. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/blues.gif

mrmando

Dec-28-2007, 2:13pm

Is there a source for how to configure a fretboard this way? Is it a proprietary method?
Thanks,
Bill
The fanned-fret idea goes back to the Renaissance or thereabouts. There were various specific approaches. Often on older instruments, the bridge is the flatline: it's perpendicular to the strings; the first fret is steeply angled and the angles gradually diminish approaching the bridge.

"Novax" is a modern trademarked system that puts the flatline at the twelfth fret instead of the bridge, and is available for licensing (for a modest fee) from its inventor, Ralph Novak.

One could, I suppose, sit down, do the math, and try to slot the fretboard this way oneself, but many luthiers find Novax more convenient.

This topic sometimes draws strong reactions from people who think it unjust that Novak owns a trademark on an idea that's hundreds of years old. But he did figure out a better way to do it. There were compensated mandolin bridges before Gibson patented theirs ... but they figured out a better way to do it.

Chip Booth

Dec-28-2007, 2:16pm

I ran into Lawrence a few days ago and he told me roughly the scale is slightly longer than 14" on the E string and around 16" on the C string. #That's to the best of my memory, don't quote me. #

That thing sure is cool!

Chip

Shana Aisenberg

Dec-28-2007, 2:58pm

Too cool! Needless to say, I want one http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Seth

sgarrity

Dec-28-2007, 3:38pm

Very interesting. Almost makes you dizzy lookin' at it! LOL
Cheers to Mssrs. Smart and Marshall on a fine collaboration.

lklose

Dec-28-2007, 3:48pm

I talked with Mike about this at his Choro workshop in Port Townsend, WA in early November. He said it was coming. I asked him about Hamilton de Holanda's 10 string, which he said had a standard mando scale length. He said the 5th pair was "floppy." This is the solution he said was coming. Here it is. Can't wait to hear it!

fwoompf

Dec-28-2007, 3:51pm

Holy cow this thing confuses the catfish out of me. AWESOME!

WJF

Dec-28-2007, 4:41pm

Gives me ALSMAS (A.L. Smart Mandolin Aquisition Syndrome)...

Yummeeee

Treblemaker
(Smart #124)

LOL ... I suffer from that disease too!

ALS-130
ALS-146

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Chris Biorkman

Dec-28-2007, 5:11pm

Wow! That thing makes me dizzy just looking at it.

Cool stuff.

billhay4

Dec-28-2007, 5:30pm

mrmando,
Thanks for your help!
Bill

danb

Dec-28-2007, 7:09pm

nifty

stevem

Dec-28-2007, 7:43pm

Nice! Any pictures of the back? I'd like to see what they decided to do for tuners.

MandoBen

Dec-28-2007, 9:06pm

His name is Ralph Novak, a neighboor and friend of mine. Really good guy and a true artist.
http://www.novaxguitars.com/
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

B. T. Walker

Dec-29-2007, 8:21am

Arthur, thanks for posting those pics. That last shot with the twisty illusion is just freaky. I downloaded it to use on my desktop soon.

I cannot say if I like the looks of it, but it is certainly innovative. It's the skewed placement of the f-holes that throws me. I'm too old school to actually own one, but it would be pretty interesting to take it out for a spin.

SRHeard

Dec-29-2007, 11:38am

I was told by an acquaintence of Mike's that the fan fret idea came from the piano, where each string has a different, and optimal scale length. Cool Idea! I can't wait to hear it!

billhay4

Dec-29-2007, 12:21pm

FYI,
I contacted Novax guitars about a license and was told their patent expired last year and a license is no longer needed to make fanned fretboards.
Bill

K3NTUCKI8oy

Dec-29-2007, 12:30pm

somebody needs to wear glasses when building these it looks like http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

cooper4205

Dec-29-2007, 12:31pm

somebody needs to wear glasses when building these it looks like http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
you're kidding right?

MandoBen

Dec-29-2007, 1:03pm

Check out Burrell Guitars for some really twisted necks and bodies!
http://www.burrellguitars.com/store/WsPages.asp?ID=6

Jacob

Dec-30-2007, 3:25am

mandolooter

Dec-30-2007, 8:52am

I've never played with them but Im a huge "fan" of their looks. Darn I wish I had bought my Wintergrass tickets back when I had so free cash. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

mrmando

Jan-03-2008, 7:46pm

His name is Ralph Novak, a neighboor and friend of mine. Really good guy and a true artist.
http://www.novaxguitars.com/
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Ha! I called him Robert Novak! That's not a luthier, that's the guy who outed Valerie Plame! My bad! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

I have fixed my erroneous post. Thanks!

mrmando

Jan-03-2008, 7:48pm

Fanned frets appeared on the orpharion in the 1580's.
Here (http://www.cittern.theaterofmusic.com/old/palmer.html) is one dated 1617.
http://www.cittern.theaterofmusic.com/old/img_palmer/tn_CL139_11.jpg
Very cool. I have actually been to that museum in Copenhagen, and I do seem to recall that one being on display. It looks like the flatline is the 5th fret or so.

mrmando

Jan-03-2008, 7:52pm

FYI,
I contacted Novax guitars about a license and was told their patent expired last year and a license is no longer needed to make fanned fretboards.
Bill
Must've been one of those 17-year patents!

A license was never needed to make a fanned fretboard as long as you didn't copy the Novax system and/or use the word "Novax" when you hadn't paid for the license. You could've copied that orpharion, for example, and I don't think Novax could have done anything about it.

Will they still sell you the measurements ... or slot your fretboard for you?

mrmando

Jan-03-2008, 7:57pm

I was told by an acquaintence of Mike's that the fan fret idea came from the piano, where each string has a different, and optimal scale length. Cool Idea! I can't wait to hear it!
Well, if they were introduced in 1580, then they predate the piano by a couple hundred years. Maybe the harpsichord was the real inspiration...

Bigtuna

Jan-03-2008, 8:45pm

Found this at Novax's site. He calls it his fandolin.

SternART

Jan-03-2008, 9:13pm

I bet Marshall could wail on that one too!!! I've heard him play like Hendrix, or Clapton on electric
mandolin thru my old stack of Mac amps & JBL speakers based on the Dead's "wall of sound". This was
back around the era when he joined the DGQ. Mike clearly had experimented & perfected some electric chops too!

groveland

Jan-03-2008, 9:17pm

Anybody know what it's like to get predicatable, authoritative, and accurate bends and vibrato out of these things?

mandolooter

Jan-04-2008, 1:40am

[QUOTE]Mike clearly had experimented & perfected some electric chops too!

From my limited experience listening to Mike i find this not even a bit surprising! A whole new meaning to "chops"!

billhay4

Jan-04-2008, 11:15am

I asked Novax about "instructions" and measurements, but was told they were not available for sale.
Guess it's back to the drawing board.
As I understand it, an optimal scale length for each string is determined. This involves the gauge of the string being used, but I don't know what other considerations apply.
I guess the relationship of one string to another (so as to produce a straight fret) is also considered.
If anyone knows of a technical explanation of this method, I'd appreciate a reference. Takes me a while to get my head around things.
Bill

Tom Smart

Jan-04-2008, 1:08pm

Why don't you ask Lawrence? Just a thought. You can find his contact info at his web site (http://www.smart-instruments.com).

trevor

Jan-04-2008, 1:19pm

This may be wrong, I'm not a luthier, but I had assumed that if you work out the longest and shortest using the normal method, space them the width of the fretboard, you can then draw a line between the two? You can choose of you want the 12th straight or not.
This is what I did to make a mock up of my Condino 10 string (see previous thread) to establish what would be playable.

Spruce

Jan-04-2008, 2:10pm

Here's my Earnest Boomerang (again)....
Love this thing.....

mrmando

Jan-04-2008, 2:35pm

Bill, you might want to search the Cafe on "Novax" and/or "fanned." This has been discussed before, and I believe someone posted a link to a spreadsheet containing some relevant calculations.

Tom C

Jan-04-2008, 3:30pm

Wouldn't this screw up where you are used to putting your fingers? Would it be too difficult to switch between mandos with the different fretboards?

jmcgann

Jan-04-2008, 3:39pm

I spoke with Mike last week and he said it's all quite comfortable; the barre at the 1st fret takes some getting used to/refingering.

I haven't actually played a fanned fret instrument, but everyone I know who has says they are comfortable and you get used to them fast. To me, it'd be worth it to get that low end!

Switching between mando family instruments and guitar isn't a big deal, so i think i could adjust to this http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

Spruce

Jan-04-2008, 4:30pm

It's surprisingly easy to get used to.... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

SternART

Jan-16-2008, 6:27pm

Mike just told me he'll be playing the new Lawrence Smart 10 stringer at Wintergrass this year! Can't wait!

Chip Booth

Jan-17-2008, 1:02pm

Thanks Arthur, looking forward to hearing and seeing it.

Chip

WJF

Jan-17-2008, 6:39pm

I heard from Mike a week or so ago ... he told me that he hasn't touched the Loar since this baby arrived! I know from my own two ALS mandos that Lawrence has "cracked the mando making code" big-time but this one must be really amazing!!

Linda Binder

Feb-27-2008, 4:07pm

Mike just told me he'll be playing the new Lawrence Smart 10 stringer at Wintergrass this year! #Can't wait!
Did anyone get a chance to hear/see this instrument at Wintergrass? Impressions?
--Linda

mandolooter

Feb-28-2008, 7:21am

thats what I wuz wondering too...

SternART

Feb-28-2008, 10:11am

The 2 shows I saw, one a Duo set and one with Vasen, he played the Loar, but I heard he had it out at his mando workshop,
and rumor was he jammed till late at night with it in private sessions..... with other performers back in their rooms.

Hal Johnson

Feb-28-2008, 3:50pm

Laurence took me to Mike's room at Wintergrass to see and play this beauty. The word "awesome" comes close. Laurence is a gifted luthier but this instrument surpasses what one might expct from such an extraordinary looking - and playing - instrument. It now wakes me up in the middle of the night, calling, calling. It's a home run with bases loaded. The wife and I are in deep conversations.

HJ

Antlurz

Mar-01-2008, 1:40am

One could, I suppose, sit down, do the math, and try to slot the fretboard this way oneself, but many luthiers find Novax more convenient.
Seems to me figuring it out would be supremely easy with a computer scale calculator. Simply decide on a scale length for the G string and the length for the E string, mark it off down both sides of the fretboard and cut slots between the two.

Ron

billhay4

Mar-01-2008, 12:50pm

I don't think Novax is selling the layouts any longer as their patent has expired, so you are left to do the calculations yourself.
Not quite as simple as might be thought since they depend on the string gauge used, note desired, and length. Once you set the scale, you are locked into that string gauge forever on that instrument.
It is a matter of finding the G and E scale lengths and connecting the dots.
The real difficulty is constructing the top to accommodate the odd bridge placement one ends up with.
This is how I understand it.
Bill

Spruce

Mar-01-2008, 2:33pm

It's a tough nut to crack, but one that is well-worth cracking...

Since the day I first got the Earnest electric 5-string, I've lusted after a well-made acoustic 10-string with the same scale length(s)....
It just solves so-ooo many problems with getting all those strings to sound their best...

Sounds like Lawrence might have nailed it.... #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

stevem

Mar-01-2008, 3:42pm

Welcome to the Cafe Hal. Great first post. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

seanonabutton

Mar-01-2008, 3:53pm

she's fun to play... took a minute of staring at it in awe to put my fingers on it though http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

SternART

Mar-01-2008, 3:55pm

Yeah....'bout time you quit just lurking around here Hal.
Nice to see you posting a message at the Cafe.

BTW our conversation at Wgrass was too short! Maybe I'll
see you at Inverness!

Hal Johnson

Mar-01-2008, 11:06pm

Hey Art, I was so busy going in so many directions to experience all the great acts. I think it was the best Wintergrass yet. Kudos to Ruffo and crew. I hope to get to Inverness but still working on schedule. Did you get to spend some time with Michael Heiden? I missed Spruce this year. Got to play Gail Hesters new stuff. WOW and WOW!!! I need to sell some stuff so I can buy some more.

Hal

Hal Johnson

Mar-01-2008, 11:15pm

Art,

And did you get to play Craig Wilson's new mandola? Mighty fine! Another big event in luthery.

And yes, I was surprised how easy Mike's 10 string was to play. For the first 15 minutes all I could do was look at the "twisted" headstock alignment; another 10 minutes at the cock-eyed frets. Lawrence did some beautiful and truly amazing work.

Hal

janprimus

Jul-08-2008, 12:52pm

Paul Lestock over at Arrow Guitar and Mandolin made a mandocello with fanned frets and it is about the coolest looking thing. #It is beautiful.http://myweb.facstaff.wwu.edu/chad/cello%20002.jpg #He is building an archtop guitar for me right now. #I may even get it this month. #I am tickled...:D