Sound system for bluegrass band

[jraeder]

I'm the mandolinist in a six piece bluegrass band (me, plus banjo, guitar, bass, dobro, fiddle, and all of us sing except bass player). Our problem is we want to get our own sound system instead of relying on others to do this for us. We'd like to try either a single mic for everything, or a single vocal mic with one or two instrument mics. The choreography is tougher with the single mic, but we find both instrumentals and vocal harmonies tend to be tighter when we're all forced to be closer together due to the constraints of a single mic. None of us have much experience in doing sound (mics, amps, speakers, mixing boards, avoiding feedback, etc.) and we don't want to hire a sound person to run the equipment. We've been warned that it's very difficult to both play in a band and run sound successfully. Does anyone out there have experience doing this? Any suggestions on a fairly simple system that could work reasonably well? Any suggestions would be welcome.

John R

[Tim2723]

Hi John and welcome!

"Any suggestions on a fairly simple system that could work reasonably well?"

That's the hard part. #Those two things aren't mutually exclusive, but they're pretty close to it. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Since you've been having the sound done for you thus far, what is the set up that has worked best for you? #Start by describing that and maybe we can help you duplicate it with some improvements.

What kind of venues are you playing? #Indoors, outdoors, both? #What kind of budget are we looking at (we love to spend other people's money!).

There are a number of players here that use the single-mic set up (and variations on the theme), and I'm sure they'll chime in soon. #

What you're looking at is the ability to amplify a dozen sound sources with a couple of microphones. #That's not impossible, but it has its challenges. #Study up on the methods used to amplify choirs and orchestras. #In the end, that's what you're really doing. #You have a lot of sound coming from different places. It doesn't matter that you're a Bluegrass band. You are a multiple sound source, and that's all the microphones care about.#

But for a starter, give us the details of the most successful set up you've enjoyed.

[bradeinhorn]

what tim said....

and i'll add this. be prepared to have more than one, or more than two setups. in one venue, a single mic may be fine. in others it may be disastrous. in nyc, for example, in most clubs, due to the nature of the rooms, what works best is simply a bunch of shure 57/58 type mics (one for each vocalist and one for each instrument. condenser mics often prevent the usage of monitors entirely.

playing and doing your own sound is quite hard and often frustrating so the number one thing is to be flexible and know how to be flexible.

[Shalebot]

Have you given thought to a couple of large-diaphragms spaced evenly in regards to your band setup and then clip-on condensers for the instruments?

This is what The Punch Brothers (Aka Thile + co) are running, and their sound is as good as any I've ever heard.

[Tim2723]

Bradeinhorn, that's a great point. #Unless you're playing in the same venue all the time and know it well (like your church for instance), flexability is the key. #You never know just what you'll be up against. Another important thing is to learn to use your sound gear as if it was a musical instrument in its own right. #In fact, it is.

One of the problems with trying to emulate the big names is that those bands have the best soundmen in the business and the finest equipment money can buy. Tough to do by yourself with a budget.

[Steve Ostrander]

Their are several problems associated with mixing your own sound. It's not impossible, but it's tricky. First, you are on stage, and it's impossible to be two places at once, so you don't know what the sound out in front of the mains sounds like, you can only guess. Second, you're busy playing, so if a feedback problem arises, you can't really get to the mixing board fast enough to fix it, even if the board is right next to you. Third, you can't punch up the channel for a solo, so you have to play louder or closer to the mic, or both.

There are other problems, but after running my own sound for many years, I see these as the major issues. I don't have any answers, other than experience. It usually takes us half of the first set to dial in the sound. Not very professional, but what are you gonna do?

[dan@kins]

My group does our own sound. We have found its best to have a variety of 'set-ups' depending on where and what sort of event we play.

We have a mandolin, guitar, banjo, fiddle and upright bass. Three of us sing.

We have a condenser mic set up. We use two AKG C4000s out in front and set up the fiddler with an instrument mic of his own.

We all have pick ups in our instruments, and will use them if we have to. We generally use dynamic mics for vocals when we do this.

We have another set up in which we use dynamics mics for instruments and vocals. This is the set up we most commonly use and in my opinion the most versatile. We use all Senheisser e835 dynamic mics for this set up.

Our board is a Mackie CFX 12 channel. We also use an FMR audio 'Really Nice Compressor' plugged into the main inserts. We run the main out signal through a Sabine FBX2400 feedback filter.

Our mains are JBL Eon 15s and our monitor is a Mackie SRM350.

This is not an extremely loud PA but it sounds good. The only thing I would change is I'd like to go to Mackie SRM450 for mains and add a second SRM350 as a monitor. I've had the JBLs for about 7 or 8 years now and they just don't have the clarity of the Mackies.

Hopefully you might find some of that useful. We built our PA through trial and error and encountering different places to play and crowd expectations etc....

Good luck.

[TonyP]

As usual, all good stuff from us equipment denizens. Now if Mike E, the Cafe search king can point you to the myriad of threads that have been hashed over about this,and Steve with his expertise, the response will be complete.

Tim had, had for me, the bottom line response, doing sound is an art. And like everybody has said, doing it yourself can be done, but you have to find the way that works for you. And it sounds like you want to take command of your sound, and that's where I got to years ago. Through watching my favorite bands and asking questions I started on the path, but it never ends. Just like playing music. Some stuff works for one gig, and doesn't for others. While I like the one or two mic setup, I've found others in the bands I work with are just too spacey to carry it off. Coming in late on vocals and botched choreography drives me crazy(short drive folks, get your shoes and socks on, it's right around the corner). So, I've got an array of mics and like I said, it's still changing.

4033 for the main vocal mic and now all Oktava 012 for mando, guitar, and banjo. With one band there is more vocalists, and they have bad backs, plus are big guys. So, I've gone to separate vocal mics for them too(they have their own 58's). What I'm trying to point out is there is the ideal, and the reality http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

We are playing more bars with way more noise and having to push the system louder to get over the top, and so I'm adding the next level to my mics. The excellent thing about the Oktava's that no other mic in it's class has is different capsules, hyper cardiod, cardiod, and omni. Right now, my 4 012's have cardiod, and I'm contemplating a couple of hyper cards when the noise is so bad, I can't use the 4033, and I'll swap it out and go with separate hyper's on the vocals.

BTW, if you will look at all the pro bands right now, almost none of them use reg, monitors, they all use in ears. Way more efficient, and help tremendously with control of feedback, less gear to haul too.

I tried to just bring up new stuff that is not in my previous posts that I've learned.

[Tim2723]

What I'm trying to point out is there is the ideal, and the reality http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Tony,

Best...quote...ever!

In the ideal world, the audience shuts up and listens to every note. #Ever wonder how some drunk standing right in front of you can be louder than the whole band with mics? #I've never figured that out.

[earthsave]

Watch Karl Shiflett and the Big Country Show, they do the best job behind a single mic. They carry guitar, bass, banjo, mandolin, dobro, and fiddle and play split breaks on most songs. Some songs they triple split the breaks and pull it all off with a single AT4033.

Karl says one of the keys is to have instruments of equal volume.

We work with a single AT4033 with two guitars, bass, fiddle, banjo, and mandolin. We've been doing this for about 6 years, and I still get frustrated with it in some situations, mainly small stages with sometimes over animated lead singers both with guitars taking up too much space and being unaware of who is taking the break. Adding and additional AT4033 and/or an solo mic might alleviate that but that would add the cost of another AT4033 mic.

[TonyP]

Scot, I've seen what I believe to be the best, Del and the Boys. But only in festival/concert situations. You can get away with so much more because of the soundman, less ambient noise etc.. I'm amazed at them, and by your description, I'm amazed at you too. My nemesis is guitars, and you've got 2! yikes. Even after almost 4yrs now, there are still problems about how to work the mic/mics. The ones that didn't get it before, and see a PA as something you can't understand, still make the same mistakes. It isn't the monitors, it's just not paying attention. I'm not sure what's going on, but I too get distracted and find myself missing a break/vocal, too close etc.. I'm not sure if they didn't have monitors, they would pay attention more. Every person is different, and that's why NOBODY in the bands I've been in, wants to do sound. It's like being a short order cook and nobody likes what's on the menu:p

[MWM]

You asked about a simple system. For a single large condenser I'll suggest a good feedback eliminator, a small passive mixer with phantom power and powered speakers. You'll still want a mic for your bass. Having an additional small condenser will help with guitar breaks but isn't a must. You won't need a sound person with a single mic and forget about monitors. Learn how close each instrument needs to be for breaks & backup - takes some practice. Be aware you probably won't get enough volume if you're playing loud noisy bars.

From my experience: Smaller & lighter is better - nobody likes to haul or store large speakers. We use a single AT-3035, a Sabine Solo FBX, a mixer and a set of small powered speakers (100W). Our setup is fine for indoor gigs up to 150 people. Larger or outdoor gigs usually have their own sound. I like powered speakers instead of a powered mixer & passive speakers. For some good quality smaller ones check out Yamaha and Yorkville.

[picksnbits]

I'm in the same situation as the OP. Can you plug an AT 40xx into a Behringer DSP110 (pre-amp and feedback buster) and go straight from that to one or more powered speakers?


Sounds too easy to work.

[TonyP]

you could theoretically, but I've never heard of anyone who can get the Behringer to really bust feedback. The only one's I know that work are the sabine, and the dbx driveracks.

[Gutbucket]

I like the Bose PAS system with an AT 3035 microphone. Since the Bose tower is behind you, you hear what the audience hears. And the EQ remote can be attached to a mic. stand near a band member for quick tweaks. Works for my 5 member band. Practicing the "one microphone boogie" takes a little practice. Kinda like playing Twister.

[picksnbits]

you could theoretically, but I've never heard of anyone who can get the Behringer to really bust feedback. The only one's I know that work are the sabine, and the dbx driveracks.
So I guess a $100 magic box to solve all my problems was too much to hope for?

[TonyP]

"So I guess a $100 magic box to solve all my problems was too much to hope for?"

It's one of the ones I checked on before I made the leap to the dbx driverack. I wish there was a cheap magic bullet, oooooh how I do. But all the advise I got here on the Cafe was it was just a box of lights, and that's all. I've not used the sabine, but because of a fellow Cafer, I got a deal on a DriveRack260, and while daunting at first, it has turned into an absolute necessity. I won't do a gig without it. YMMV of course.

I've just never gotten away with simple, and believe me, I've tried. It's just that I hate feedback and sounding bad. The setup I have, I swear by, and both bands seem to like it. For me it's the fine balance between complicated multi ch. independence for each vocal and instrument, and what I can simplify by using a more sensitive mic for more people/instrument, but not have feedback. So I have a hybrid, that's very much driven by our needs and my experience. I'm totally amazed Gutbucket can use the Bose. I know it wouldn't work for us. To each his own.

[jraeder]

Thanks for all the feedback. A lot of it is over my head, but I'll have to start learning about this stuff sooner or later if we want to do our own sound. To answer Tim 2723's first reply, we play both indoor and outdoor gigs. Indoor gigs range from small noisy rooms/bars to an airplane hanger at a local small airport that we do a gig at every year. What may have worked best for us was our most recent gig (indoors, not too much ambient noise)with one large diaphragm mic for vocals and most instrumental breaks, and a separate small condenser mic (i think) for the guitar only. Two Mackie speakers on stands (not sure what type Mackies) and no monitors. Bass wasn't mic'd, which worked, but the crowd was small (30 people) and fairly attentive/quiet. Our sound person used a new gadget she has that was some sort of feedback suppressor. She used it after we were all set and we had to be absolutely quiet for 2 minutes while this awful white noise came out of the speakers. It seemed to work though, as we had no feedback the entire evening. The way she explained it was that this gadget somehow picked up troublsome frequencies and supressed them through the graphic equalizer. It cost about $800 though.

Currently the band has about $2500 saved up to spend on sound. All we own presently are two Octava MC012 mics with the multiple heads (cardiod, hypercardiod, and omni)

John

[Tim2723]

Hi John,

Given the wide variety of venues and applications, and especially that rather tight budget ($2500 is not a lot of money to equip a six piece band), my first reaction is to convince you to move away from the single mic idea and go with pickups and vocal mics into a basic 12 channel PA.

What you've discovered is that it's easiest to amplify things to a small, quiet crowd. #The tough part is to be able to do all the other shows. #Pickups color sound, I know, and lots of guys hate them, but they bring too much to the table to be ignored in a case like yours. #I play in a simple duo and we can't even think about using a single mic set up in the noisy, tight quarters we often play in.

I hope the other guys will have better ideas for you, and I'll bet they will, but that's a tough call for such dramatically different venues on a tight budget. #My first instinct is to send you to Musician'sFriend or Music123 to look at one of those Yamaha PA packages. #Two 15" cabs, a 12 channel powered mixer at 1000 watts, poles and cables for around $1800. #Use the two mics you have for vocals. #Spend the balance on half-way decent pickups. #When the money starts coming in, look to upgrade.

There are probably other, better options, but that's my first call based on my experience given your restrictions. #Personally, I can't imagine being able to reliably control feedback without a soundman and some really expensive technology in your case. #You need simplicity and as much hands-off capability as you can get. #Sacrifice a little bit of tone for flexability and go up from there.

If you really hate the idea of pickups, you can still get a half dozen SM-57s for that budget (good sound, reliable, easy to use), and the PA packages usually come with four or five vocal mics of some sort to help you round things out.

Sorry if that's disappointing, but it's all I can think of at the moment.

[fredfrank]

I have been building a sound system from the start by trial and error, and let me tell you, that's a hard way to go. This thing has taken on a life of it's own.

We started with a Mackie DFX-6, an AT 4033 and two JBL Eon15 speakers. Well, of course, the audience wanted more volume, and so we had to add a 31 band equalizer to control feedback. Our band couldn't seem to get the choreography right with the one mic thing, so I switched to individual mics.

Now we get more volume, and of course, this necessitated buying a bigger mixer. Then I got the complaint from the band that they couldn't hear themselves, so here comes another Eon-15 for a monitor. Seemed like no matter where the monitor was pointed, somebody wasn't happy. So I got two Eon G2's for mains, and now use all three Eon-15's for monitors.

Just recently I added a snake so I can get all the mic cords out from under foot. This also helps, since I do the sound for my wife's all-girl band as well.

As you can see, it doesn't really matter where you start out, you'll always find that there is something else you'll need later on. Thank the Lord for Eb@y.

I just wish there was some way to keep the audience quiet. That has been the number one problem I have run into with doing acoustic sound.

[TonyP]

The last info was very informative John. I would guess your sound person has a dbx driverack, as I think the Sabine is less expensive. Two things I've learned about the DR, you almost never get that 2 min. of silence to "pink" the room(the noise you heard) and the auto stuff isn't IMHO very reliable. What I've done is pink outside, and saved the graphic setting, and pinked inside and saved that. The great thing about the DR is you can save the settings as a venue, and if you are using the same stuff, just call it up, and bingo, you're ready to go. Be warned, it's a very deep unit, replaces a whole rack full of stuff, but the best investment in sound I've ever made. But a year later, I'm STILL learning stuff that it does.

If you got some good deals, you could almost do the PA for what you have saved up. Personally, I'd go with another 012 and make a Christmas tree setup, one on top for vocals/fiddle, and the two on the sides for lead and backup. Depending on which capsule you have in it, you could setup the 012's to be able to get pretty loud. I'd also find a good mic/ or P/U for the bass, to get a good signal, and to get him out of the way of choreography. This would only need about 4ch's too.

The great thing is you could learn some stuff from the soundperson and maybe borrow some stuff to try out and see if you can deal with it.

I have all my stuff in two carts that fit in the back of my PU, and I can load and unload all by myself and have it down to do the setup by myself. I find this handy as I can get in early, setup hopefully before the crowd gets there, and run through the feedback setup before it gets noisy(which is another thing you need silence for, but rarely get).
you can see it here (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=8;t=43177;hl=gigmatic)

[earthsave]

I'm in the same situation as the OP. # Can you plug an AT 40xx into a Behringer DSP110 (pre-amp and feedback buster) and go straight from that to one or more powered speakers?


Sounds too easy to work.
We used to do that, until we blew it up. Now we just use a Tube Amp and use the PA equalizer to eliminate any frequencies that want to feedback.