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View Full Version : Self tuning guitar...is the mandolin next?



Ira Chavis
Nov-12-2007, 4:11pm
Found this on engadget ...Gibson shows a self tuning Les Paul guitar


http://www.engadget.com/2007....-guitar (http://www.engadget.com/2007/11/12/gibson-gets-official-with-the-self-tuning-robot-guitar)

This design would have been better applied to the mando since it goes out of tune so often

Ira

Mark Robertson-Tessi
Nov-12-2007, 4:54pm
That's pretty neat. Those tuning motors on the back of the headstock look pretty big, though. You'd need a huge mando headstock!

Cheers
MRT

Shalebot
Nov-13-2007, 3:56am
Yeah, the string tension of an electric guitar < the tension of a mandolin.

You'd need some 12-volt motors or something, lol. But maybe you could write that off as a 'tone-enhancer'. =P

farmerjones
Nov-13-2007, 8:31am
i didn't read the first thread but im gratified that they're actually tuning a real string. It would be easy to put the same string in each position and digitaly "model" each string, essentially synthesizing. Maybe somebody already is?

The Old Sarge
Nov-13-2007, 9:18am
i didn't read the first thread but im gratified that they're actually tuning a real string. It would be easy to put the same string in each position and digitaly "model" each string, essentially synthesizing. Maybe somebody already is?
I believe that has been done already, to some degree. #As I recall, and this old memory may be faulty, one "self-tuning" guitar does it by a computer chip and the note played is not the note produced (does that make sense?). #Can actually be disconcerting to the player who hears both notes. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

JimD
Nov-13-2007, 11:40am
Allow me to be the first naysayer.

Am I the only one who thinks this is a bad idea?

Glassweb
Nov-13-2007, 11:47am
I've been trying for years to get my mandolin to tune itself, but it has never paid much attention to my request. I used to think it would be easier after playing all these years, but it has become even more of a pain as my ear is much more sensitive. Et bien, ca c'est la mandoline!

JGWoods
Nov-13-2007, 12:41pm
Allow me to be the first naysayer.

Am I the only one who thinks this is a bad idea?
If the end result is more people playing in tune then it's a good thing.

OTOH I don't think it'll fly and become a big seller. I just don't think the market is there.

Laurence Firth
Nov-13-2007, 12:49pm
Allow me to be the first naysayer.

Am I the only one who thinks this is a bad idea?
I agree that its a bad idea. A very important part of practice and ear training is learning to tune your instrument. But them again I'm pretty old-fashion in my taste and attitude towards music playing.

David Lloyd
Nov-13-2007, 1:13pm
Are mandolins supposed to be in tune?
but then again, it's been along time since someone asked...Is that in tune?
Dave:p

Celtic-Grass
Nov-13-2007, 1:49pm
not a bad idea for a guitar since the system can not only tune to standard tuning but also switch over to others like DADGAD and Nashville tunings "on the fly". But for a mandolin? too many technical obstacles I'd say. Like, getting a small motor (8 of them) to produce enough torque and sensors to detect which string of a pair is out of tune. Just the fact that you have 8 strings in a package half the size of a guitar's six strings seems to require a system that would be somewhat unwieldy. I'll just stick with my Inteli and my left hand.

jim_n_virginia
Nov-13-2007, 2:09pm
my mandolin will tune itself after I take a few shots of Tequila! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

JimD
Nov-13-2007, 2:12pm
Frankly, except for situations that are too noisy (i.e. playing in a noisy club -- which I don't do anyway, I'm not even convinced of the value of electronic tuners. I have met too many people who can't tune their instruments by ear -- they just plain never learned to do it.

That also leads to a pretty skewed idea of what "in tune" really means.

For my purposes, I'll stick to my ear and left hand.

farmerjones
Nov-13-2007, 2:32pm
in terms of the acoustically minded, and i'm pretty sure this would apply to mandolins and fiddles alike - The reason why you only tune the A to 440 then you tune the other strings (or courses) against the A-440, is how you can tell the qualities of one wooden box compared to the next. When strings resonate is when you can hear the tone of the instrument for what it is. For better or worse. An old luthier told me this, i'm not channeling Yoda.(again) http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

So as far as an acoustic box is concerned, it's wrong to me.

foldedpath
Nov-13-2007, 4:51pm
i didn't read the first thread but im gratified that they're actually tuning a real string. It would be easy to put the same string in each position and digitaly "model" each string, essentially synthesizing. Maybe somebody already is?

It can sort-of be done with a hex Midi pickup driving a synth or sampler, if you set the synth in a quantized mode. With that setup, if your tuning is a little off, the output note will jump to the nearest exact pitch. I use that mode with synth guitar for keyboard patches like piano or organ, so the system ignores minor string bends and slurs and sounds more like I'm hitting keys. But it's not exactly an auto-tuner. Your guitar still needs to be reasonably close to in-tune for good results. A Roland VG-series can be used to shift pitch on an individual string basis, but it's not exactly a tuner either. You want to start from a string that's already at correct pitch.

I think the Gibson system is basically a gimmick to raise the company profile and sell a few more Les Pauls (without the tuner gadget). It's not THAT hard to keep a guitar in tune during a performance, if it's set up well and you change strings frequently enough. It's not going to solve problems like intonation drift with old strings.

Also, unless I missed something, I think they blew it by not including realtime control via Midi pedal, so you could program things like a Tele B-Bender effect for pedal steel sounds. It's a shame to throw all that hardware (and weight) on an instrument, and ONLY make it way to auto-tune or change to different tunings between songs. Realtime control was probably left out to keep the cost somewhat affordable, but I still think it was a huge wasted opportunity.

Richard Francis
Nov-18-2007, 6:10pm
Gibson's press release said the "self-tuning" guitar is aimed at amateurs who have trouble tuning their guitars, especially those who use different tunings, which is not usually an issue with mandolins.

JimD
Nov-18-2007, 6:58pm
Gibson's press release said the "self-tuning" guitar is aimed at amateurs who have trouble tuning their guitars, especially those who use different tunings, which is not usually an issue with mandolins.
This bothers me on so many levels.

Beginners need to tune by ear even more than experienced players do.

The crutch of an electronic tuner isn't bad enough?

Caleb
Nov-18-2007, 11:04pm
Call me a purist, but I don't like it. Sort of reminds me of those "modeling guitars" put out by Line 6 a while back that would sound like any type of guitar with the flip of a switch. Techonology can and is good lots of times, but then other times it gets just plain silly.

TeleMark
Nov-19-2007, 8:57am
Bottom line... If someone has the $$ and feels the desire, then I have no problem with this. Purists can opine about the need for beginners to learn by ear (or they won't have the foundation of millenia of tradition bla bla bla). The people who buy this toy (or at least 90% of them) are 40-year plus upper-middle-class guys who won't gig and will play the thing a few times.

I think it's a great exercise. Would I buy it? Unlikely, as I have 1 electric guitar left and never play that. I would have LOVED to have this on guitars with a floating trem, as tuning those can be a pathway to madness.

Chippster
Nov-19-2007, 11:05am
It would involve some pretty tricky tuning 'temperments' for a mandolin! I mean take a good tuner and tune all the strings exactly to pitch and it just doesn't have that sweetness! I was listening to REM's "Losing my Religion" the other day and i think the mandolin in that song was tuned "too close". I generally get one string 'dead on' and then flatten the other a half step or so and slowly bring it up, ideally stopping before i get it exactly there ... just my method and it doesn't always work perfectly ... Especially when the guitar player slaps on a capo!

JimD
Nov-19-2007, 9:04pm
Bottom line... #If someone has the $$ and feels the desire, then I have no problem with this. #Purists can opine about the need for beginners to learn by ear (or they won't have the foundation of millenia of tradition bla bla bla). #
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif Purists?

If you knew me, you would know that it isn't about purism.

I have been teaching ear training classes for years and find that many people who depend on electronic tuners have no sense of pitch.

They aren't going to develop that by letting their tuner --or worse yet, their instrument -- do it for them.

If someone chooses to buy such a thing...well, a fool and his money...

Patrick Killeen
Nov-20-2007, 4:48am
Allow me to be the first naysayer.

Am I the only one who thinks this is a bad idea?
I agree that its a bad idea. A very important part of practice and ear training is learning to tune your instrument. But them again I'm pretty old-fashion in my taste and attitude towards music playing.
So how do piano students manage (or harmonica players for that matter)?

If someone wanted to learn to standard for performing publically then I think that it would probably do more harm than good. On the other hand, if someone wanted to play for fun then it could let them concentrate more on the stuff they want to do.

(By the way, in answer part of my own question, a lot of us harmonica player never learn to tell when our instruments have gone out of tune. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif )

Patrick

JimD
Nov-20-2007, 5:43am
Allow me to be the first naysayer.

Am I the only one who thinks this is a bad idea?
I agree that its a bad idea. A very important part of practice and ear training is learning to tune your instrument. But them again I'm pretty old-fashion in my taste and attitude towards music playing.
So how do piano students manage (or harmonica players for that matter)?

If someone wanted to learn to standard for performing publically then I think that it would probably do more harm than good. #On the other hand, if someone wanted to play for fun then it could let them concentrate more on the stuff they want to do.

(By the way, in answer part of my own question, a lot of us harmonica player never learn to tell when our instruments have gone out of tune. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif )

Patrick
The only thing "in tune" on a piano are the octaves.

Certainly the situation for the piano is such that it is too complex a system for pianists to do themselves. One can argue that there are many negatives that we owe to this as well.

But really--Exactly how hard is it to tune a guitar anyway?

mandolinplayingpreacher
Nov-20-2007, 6:17am
Hay Pickers!

This sounds like a lazy way to get the instrument to tune for you? Why not just go buy a Sony Play Station with a fake guitar and play fake music??

I think it would not work out very well for the mandolin due to the string tension! Most people know that the A-string would be the one to keep in tune!!

Anyway I think that I understand that Gibson is only making a certain number of these guitars.

billkilpatrick
Nov-20-2007, 6:57am
bad idea - adjusting for open tunings and your instrument could end-up like "hal" in "space odyssey" ... barking mad.

Dale Rychlik
Nov-20-2007, 9:20am
I think you guys are missing the big picture here. I don't know about you but I know several Banjo's that could use this. I think it couls be great, just not for everybody...

gnelson651
Nov-20-2007, 9:48am
But really--Exactly how hard is it to tune a guitar anyway?
Interesting you should ask that question. A few weeks ago I was a substitute teacher at a local high risk high school for band. I made quick friends with the guitar teacher next door.

From time to time, she would come into my class to see how I was doing. At one time she came in all festered and complained that her beginning guitar class still couldn't tune a guitar even using electronic tuners. She said doubted that these students cracked their guitar cases at home to practice and that the only time they get any playing time was in class.

Patrick Killeen
Nov-21-2007, 4:55am
But really--Exactly how hard is it to tune a guitar anyway?
Quite easy, as long as it's got fixed frets so you're effectively just trying to tune the open strings. If it had moveable frets (like a lute) and you were adjusting the intonation of all the notes then it would become much more complicated.

The positioning of the frets is as much a part of the tuning process as adjusting the tension in the strings, and the arguments against having automatic tuners on a mandolin could also be used against having fixed frets.

Patrick

MikeEdgerton
Nov-21-2007, 7:10am
Most of the places I play tuning appears to be optional.