Age before beauty

[mandotool]

I am looking for some good council on the subject of how best to keep our mandolins on a day to day basis...
I keep mine hanging on the wall and at the ready for the for the following reasons..

1.easily got at and more play time.

2.They pick up ambient and musical vibration and stay more "open"...really..

3.They benefit from the variations in temperature and humidity and thus will"age" and mature in tone more appreciably...wood benefits from age ..No?

4. They hang out in the Kitchen mainly and all that good xtra olive oil and bacon grease smoke provide for a more rustic patina and a speedier neck ..

I know some of these points have been labored over before but i really am interested in hearing from the Builders and science fringe elements out there about the effects of environment on tone over time....bacon grease aside..
We all know that too much variation in humidity and temperature....not such a good thing ....but how does it effect the way wood ages and issues of tone etc....

As for my part...I can report on recent findings that maple syrup cleans up w/ a damp cloth and has no detrimental effects on Varnish ...at least not so as you'd notice..
Thanks much in advance....

[JeffD]

I have read good and bad about keeping the instrument on the wall. The best I have heard is that it probably won't hurt it. I have never heard that it is in anyway better.

They are at the ready, however, and so are easier to take up and play. And mandolins are beautiful things to look at.


Nobody has ever said that keeping the instruments in the case is a bad thing. Quite the contrary, some even advocate it.


I keep mine in their cases. The only instruments I hang on the wall are the wall hangers - those that cannot be salvaged enough to be playable and so have become wall art.

[allenhopkins]

[1] Instruments in cases are protected from the vicissitudes of their environment, which may include some clumsy oaf (me) knocking into them, failing to hang/set/stow them securely, or committing some other act of carelessness. Aside from "collateral damage," cased instruments experience changes in temperature and humidity more slowly, which reduces the possibility of finish checking.
[2] Since the case environment is small and enclosed, it's easier to regulate it in terms of humidity, with a case or instrument-based humidifier (or in the rarer cases of extreme humidity, a desiccant of some kind). Room environment can also be regulated, of course. But instruments "left out" do tend to get dustier, drier, etc.
[3] Of course, a pile of black cases in the corner of your basement "music room," which is what I have, is no esthetic substitute for a rank of beautiful instruments hanging on the wall or in stands. And the cases at the bottom of the pile don't get opened very regularly -- I can't recall the last time I had the Dobro tenor guitar out to play. But to me it's really "safety first," and I've inflicted enough dings and scrapes on the instruments that get frequent usage, to make me reticent about pulling a whole bunch of them out and displaying them.
[4] But, of course, instrument dealers keep their mandolins on display, and expose them to the tender mercies of customers who want to play each and every one. I expect most of us would be pretty careful of our cherished mandolins. Still, for now the only instruments out are the ones I'm taking to gigs or practicing on, and all the other six dozen or so are cased.

[Shelby Eicher]

Not to be abrasive in character. I feel this is mostly hog wash. Bet you haven't heard that in a while. Bill Monroe wasn't concerned about keeping his mandolin out of the case in the house. He went from festival to festival playing it in 90 degree weather with 85% humidity to playing it when it was in the 50s with 20% humidity and never put a humidifier in his mandolin ever or worried about it! There are things that you can do that will harm it and there are things you can do that are good for it but leaving out of the case in your house doesn't even classify in either category. If your worried about it, don't ever take it out of the case and I'm sure it will be played. I hope this puts it in perspective.
Signed,
Your String Psychologist,
P.S. There is a $15 copay, please send it to Mandolin Cafe...

[MikeEdgerton]

I keep my instruments in their cases and humidified. It protects them from dramatic changes and from people and other animals that are less than careful with them. I play several hours a day and they are always ready to leave for a gig or a jam. Being in the case doesn't seem to deter me from picking them up to play. I am not one that spends alot of time worrying about how instruments look, they are a tool to me. However, I have some disasterous personal stories from my past regarding leaving instruments hanging on stands and changes in humidity. My suggestion is that you do whatever you want and take personal responsibility for the outcome. If leaving it out in your kitchen works for you and you never have a problem you can proudly stand there and say that what you did was a good thing. If you come in one day and find the ends of the frets are snagging your fingers and the top is cracked you can stand and say that you should have kept them in the case.

[allenhopkins]

Not to be abrasive in character. I feel this is mostly hog wash...Bill Monroe wasn't concerned about keeping his mandolin out of the case in the house. He went from festival to festival playing it in 90 degree weather with 85% humidity to playing it when it was in the 50s with 20% humidity and never put a humidifier in his mandolin ever or worried about it!
Hey, Mando-shrink, coupla points:
[1] Bill Monroe was a professional musician and mandolin player who took his tools with him when he performed. His Loar got played and played and played, and abused too -- the curl broken off the headstock, the "Gibson" logo scratched out, and lastly, demolished with a fireplace poker. You will excuse me if I don't choose to emulate "Big Mon" in this regard. As to whether he kept his mandolin in the case when he was at home -- well, I don't know if he did or didn't. Do you?
[2] The real question is, for the non-professional or recreational player, should one keep the mandolin out, hanging on the wall or in a stand, or should one keep it in the case? Advantages of the first include easy accessibility, and esthetics -- instruments are nice to look at (good "decor," for want of a better word). Advantages of the second are more protection, more control over the instrument's environment -- temperature, humidity etc. -- and, of course, it's already in its case when you want to take it out to a gig or a jam.

To the working musician, instruments are tools, like a carpenter's hammer or a mechanic's set of socket wrenches. No one suggests that carpenters should keep their hammers in protective cases, and be worried that the handle will get scratched or the head dented. I have put hundreds of dings and dents and scratches into my instruments at hundreds of gigs -- 90º weather, 20º weather, rain and dust and smoke and whatever. But how you keep your instruments at home, when you're not playing out with them, involves balancing the factors I mentioned above, I think.

No, don't be over-protective; I don't agree with putting them in museum glass cases and worshipping them from afar. No "hog wash" involved in being a bit careful, IMHO.

[Shelby Eicher]

The point here is - if a mandolin can withstand the wear and tear that Bill put his through, it should be able to withstand setting out in your house.

[MikeEdgerton]

That's really not true. Unless you've had instruments dry out you'll never understand. Bill put his mandolin back in the case between sets. It didn't stay out all the time, it came out for shows. In my book lack of humidity is the biggest threat. A home in the winter with forced air heat and no humidifier will dry any stringed instrument out quickly (in my neck of the woods anyway). Most people would want a madolin that ended up looking like Bill's did (although some people are willing to pay a fortune to get one that does). Contrary to what is being suggested Monroe's mandolin did go through changes. Big Joe (in another thread) speaks about Monroe's mandolin coming back to Gibson on a regular basis and the bridge being jacked up really high. That might have been to compensate for the changes it was going through. Prior to Gibson doing that work somebody else was probably futsing with it to keep it playable.

[Shelby Eicher]

Sounds like you need a humidifier for your house. Yes it is true that Bill's mandolin changed over the years as many instruments do and it needed a neck set. He opted not to do this because he didn't want the sound to change. My earnist advice on this subject is to keep your mandolin at a reasonable temperture and humidity whenever possible whether that's in it's case under your bed or hanging on a stand in your living room. Over the life of any instrument it will change in some way.

[MikeEdgerton]

No need for a hunidifier in the house if the instruments aren't out. That's my point. Look, mandolin Brothers has all of their instruments out and a heavy humidifier running all the time. I choose to not do that. I choose to humidify in the case. Instruments need to be cared for. if you are willing to change the environment in your house to accomodate them then so be it. Most people don't have that luxury.

[JAK]

You can find information on taking care of your instrument at a number of websites, including, Collings, Taylor Guitars, and Santa Cruz Guitars. The makers of instruments caution us to follow guidelines regarding temperature and humidity. Of course folks can do anything they want with their instruments, but remember, we get what we settle for....

[Big Joe]

I keep my instruments (the ones I play most) out all the time. I have always kept them out and they have NEVER suffered abuse or neglect from being out. They certainly get played a LOT more.

As for the humidity issue, I differ with Mike. First of all, if you have humidity problems you do NEED a whole house humidifier. Every piece of wood in your house is subject to the same issues your instrument does. Your chairs will suffer from low humidity. You will find the rungs getting loose or falling out. You will see the woodwork shrink and can cause problems. If you have hardwood floors (real, not composite) you can see shrinkage. Even our laminated hardwood floors require a 1/4 inch clearance around all the edges to compensate for contraction and expansion due to humidity. You entire frame is subject to the same issues your instrument is. So, the issue is not whether you better off keeping the instrument in the case or out of the case, it is more whether you are keeping your entire investment (home and possesions) safe and secure as best as can and the only way to do that (especially if you heat with oil or gas) is to have a humidifier in your home. Then it does not matter if you mandolin is in the case or out it will be safe. Actually, it is easier to control the humidity in your house with a good degree of confidence than it is in a case, especially one that is not opened often.

Whether you keep the mandolin in the case or on the wall is a personal decision. There is not a right or wrong. You will have a certain amount of risk with either. You have to manage your risk the way you are most comfortable. For me, I have had my instruments out all the time while we raised our kids (4) plus lot of foster kids and now my grandkids. They have been exposed to the elements and I have NEVER had a problem. Needless to say, I do teach the kids they do NOT touch my instruments and they are not that easy for them to get. I keep them in a stand next to my chair in the living room or on the wall in my study.

I'm sure you will find a solution that works best for you and all the advice from everyone on the planet cannot tell you what is right for you. After all, you bought and paid for it and it is yours to decide how you care for it.

[Shelby Eicher]

Mike,
That's great you have found what works for you. For my comfort I keep the humidity in my house at about 40% to 45%. Many folks can have this kind of luxury. Humidifiers at Wally World are very affordable. It is better for your instrument in terms of stabilizing the humidity. If you only humidify in your case, every time you take it out to play the humidty leaves your instrument quicky which in turn with mess with your tuning. This is what I have learned in my 30 years playing professionally.
Good luck.
Shelby

[MikeEdgerton]

30 years? I wish I was as young as you and had only been playing that long. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[woodwizard]

I agree with Mike in regard to everything he mentioned about this. I keep mine in the case when not out to play. I also play everyday so it is out for several hours everyday. I feel an instrument out all the time is a dust collector. To each his own I guess. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
I might also mention that I do have a humdifier in the house. I just feel safer with mine in the case when I'm not around.

[Shelby Eicher]

Yeah, I've only been playing 30 years professionally. Whether you've been making your living playing professionally for more years than that wouldn't change the expert advice I have offered. It's not always the quanity as much as it is the quality. I'll stand by that any day.

[CES]

Mine stay in the case, primarily because I've got two pups who love to chew and two kids who've inherited my clumsiness. That said, I keep them convenient (but out of the living room for my wife's sanity). Someday (when the kids and dogs are older) I'd like to have a climate controlled "music room" where I can hang them all on the wall by the piano, but I'm with Mike and Allen for now.

[foldedpath]

[2] The real question is, for the non-professional or recreational player, should one keep the mandolin out, hanging on the wall or in a stand, or should one keep it in the case? Advantages of the first include easy accessibility, and esthetics -- instruments are nice to look at (good "decor," for want of a better word). Advantages of the second are more protection, more control over the instrument's environment -- temperature, humidity etc. --

I disagree about "more control over environment" if we're talking about how an instrument is stored at home.

On the road, yes... a case is a buffer against extreme changes as you travel through what may be rapidly changing conditions between a car, the outdoors, hotel rooms etc. But if you're maintaining a comfortable temperature and humidity range for people inside a house, and monitoring that environment (I do both, with a whole-house humidifier system), then an instrument hanging on the wall can breathe with the house as it goes through natural day/night and seasonal cycles.

Slow change is always better than sudden change. Opening a case can expose an instrument to a more sudden change inside a house, than it would have just hanging on the wall. This is especially true if you're trying to control humidity inside the case separately from your house (or music room) humidity.

Anyway that's my theory and I'm sticking to it. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif At home, my instruments are on the wall or on stands. Now, I do pack up the instruments on floors stands and bring out the "beaters" when the grandkids come to visit, so the physical protection issues are definitely situational. There have been times in my life when the only safe thing was to keep instruments in cases, when I had less control over who and what was happening around them.

[Jonathan Peck]

Well I guess the one good thing here is that whatever you decide, you can always change your mind. Also, an ounce of prevention is worth two pounds of cure.

I'd say don't ask us, go pay a visit to your local luthier and ask him why he's so busy with repairs and what type of things he's working on.

[MikeEdgerton]

Yeah, I've only been playing 30 years professionally. Whether you've been making your living playing professionally for more years than that wouldn't change the expert advice I have offered. It's not always the quanity as much as it is the quality. I'll stand by that any day.
That and ten dollars will get you a cup of Starbucks coffee.

[allenhopkins]

Well, if we're comparing pedigrees, I recently passed the 40th anniversary of my first "professional performance" (did I mention I lost my dinner before I went on stage, at Open Night at the Denver Folklore Center in 1966?). Got my 50¢ admission back, too...

Not the point, though. Do what you want with your instruments, realizing you're responsible for what happens to them. I offered a few considerations, but it's up to the individual owner/player. I choose to keep my instruments in the basement because it keeps the highest humidity during the winter when the heat's on, and to run a dehumidifier in the summer when it gets a bit clammy. I don't individually humidify them any more, since the humidity down here rarely gets below 40%. I keep them in cases mainly because I'm always moving them around, picking out the four or five I'll need for a particular job, and I would have knocked the corners off all of them if they didn't have the cases to protect them. But I won't "dis" anyone who chooses to keep them out and accessible. I would say, though, in answer to Shelby's earlier post, that I'm not sure the issue is how much your instrument can withstand -- rather, it's what you think is best for it, and for you as its owner and player.

[entau]

was told by a luthier of high end cellos and violins -

1. keep it in the case when not playing.
2. only wipe it with a soft cloth dampened with distilled water.
3. do not leave it out in the hot (direct) sun for prolonged periods

too dry is bad - can and will cause cracking
too wet( and by that I mean "very wet") is not good either - will cause warping

playing it for a few hours in either 90 degree heat and high humidity or cold weather will not damage it - unless you trip and fall while playing or are hit by hail or a flying beer bottle or something.

keep in mind this is for vintage and highly valuable instruments. ( my rigel, which I call expensive does not fit this luthiers description of "expensive")

anything else - hang it on the wall if it looks good

really for the NE the too dry is the bigger issue - can't speak for other regions
as already discussed here - hot dry air all winter long does not do the instrument any favors - might not damage it beyond repair - but I'm sure it does affect it.

rarley is the humidity and temperature high enough to do any damage - unless you are water boarding ( George says it's OK!) your mandolin.
my understanding it is quick fluctuations in environment ( humidity, tempurature) that can do damage)

I think it is true the greatest risk is really from accidental impact damage - other wise - unless it's a vintage mando or costs more then 1 years worth of mortgage payments ( or more then a new car)- I wouldn't sweat it.

I personally keep them in the case most of the time when not playing.

if that is a detterant to practice ( not for me)
then I would hang them on the wall.

I did use those green sticks you put in for a while - didn't see a huge difference.

[Bernie Daniel]

What percent relative humidity do most of you folks figure is a safe level? #

Our HVAC system keeps our house at about 40% relative humidity (at 68 - 70 degrees F) which I have always felt was adequate for wood instruments. #What do others think?

Mike I guess you humidify the case but if one did not specifically do that I do not think that the case would provide any protection from drying as its inside air would assume the same moisture status as the rest of the house.

[MikeEdgerton]

Bernie you can actually keep the humidity right inside the case. Some cases come with the hygrometer installed. I don't leave the case open when I remove the instrument. If a case will keep moisture out it will keep moisture in. Contrary to what has been suggested, an instrument doesn't immediately dehumidify when it leaves the case. Wood absorbs moisture and it will sheds moisture but it doesn't happen at a dramatic pace unless the conditions are beyond what would ever be considered normal. Again, I'm happy to see anyone leave their instruments out if that's what they want to do. My experience has been that it isn't healthy where I live so I don't. I speak from my own experience and certainly respect anyone else's desire to leave them out. Big Joe and I have had this same discussion before in other threads and I have no problems with his ideas. It has also been noted in past threads that the moisture in an instrument that is left in a hot car (or a hot attic or whatever) can actually cause big problems as well. This would apply to an instrument that was humidified inside the case or inside the house. The key is to control the atmosphere that the instrument is in at all times. How you choose to control that is your own choice, I know how I do it.

[JGWoods]

I have often wondered why an instrument neck will dry and shrink and expose fret ends, but it won't grow and cover them when the seasonal humidity goes back up. In the end I figure filing down fret ends is something you need to do once on most instruments as they age, and it is evidence that the neck is denser now, maybe even better for it.

I have a whole house humidifier and I can't get the winter rh over 30% here in MA so I have to do something to keep some moisture in the instruments. The actions all go lower, buzzing appears, I put humidifiers in cases, or hang them in soundholes of instruments I have out, still the buzzing appears- no cracks ever in 40 years though.
This year I am adding a room humidifier to the room where all the instruments reside, or maybe I hang them in the bathroom next to the shower...

[Laurence Firth]

This works best for me. I have a music room where I practice. My instruments are in their cases when I am at work or other wise not at home (I’m not a pro) but I play almost every day. Once I take my instruments out of their cases I am either playing them or they are on their "Stand". If I have to go out for a brief period (say to the gym or to a store) I put them back in their cases. This way if one of my cats comes into the room while I'm not there or if there is an earthquake (I live in Los Angeles) my instruments are protected. Once I get back home and I'm going to play again I take them out. I don't believe that an instrument "opens up" after you have been playing it for a while. I have never heard a scientific explanation as to why that would be. I do believe that the "player" opens up after playing a bit <smile>. I wipe down my instruments with a soft clean cloth before putting them away after playing them. Its not they are expensive or rare instruments. But they are all I can afford and they mean the world to me. So I take care of them as best I can. They have some scratches and dings from playing (practice and gigs) but nothing that would make them unplayable.

L

[mandroid]

With limited Apartment space, instrument out + case, takes up twice the space
of one in its case. 1<1+1

Side note: With water on 3 sides low humidity is no problem.

[foldedpath]

I have often wondered why an instrument neck will dry and shrink and expose fret ends, but it won't grow and cover them when the seasonal humidity goes back up.

I think that's just the natural drying and shrinking of the wood cell structure over time. It will happen eventually even if you're carefully controlling temperature and humidity extremes, which can only affect short-term changes like a neck shifting or a top rising/sinking.

The entire instrument is moving and shifting in subtle ways over the years, but you notice it more when there is a non-moving part like the metal frets or a plastic binding separation, to measure the changes.

[mythicfish]

"This year I am adding a room humidifier to the room where all the instruments reside, or maybe I hang them in the bathroom next to the shower..."
I tried a room humidifier last year, but in the dead of winter here in the N.E. it doesn't do much. Before such appliances were commonplace, there were the gadgets that you filled with water and hung on the old cast iron radiators ... someone must still make them. As for hanging them in the bathroom ... guess I could use a mandolin as a soap dish. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Kevin Briggs]

Here's my approach. It's worked great for the three years that I've used it:

I simply keep my mandolin and my guitar in my partially finished basement. I keep them in the cases, on top of a sturdy table, with the tops of the cases open, most of the time. I keep them in the basement because in Pennsylvania basements tend to be humid, and I can control the humidity down there. I have a dehumidifier that pumps something like 40 or 60 gallons a day. I'm not sure how much. That seems high, but it's something that really is surprisingly high. I also bought a humidity guage for about $20 at a hardware store. It tells me the humidity and the temperature.

A local luthier I know and respect very much and the folks at STE both told me that somewhere around 45-50% humidty is good, and somewhere around 72 degrees is good. I make sure humidity in my basement never drops below 40% and never goes above 55%. For the most part, it's always around 48%. In regards to the temperature, it gets down to about 64 in the winter, and can get as high as 76 in the summer. It used to be more dramatic by a few degrees, but I cut holes for and installed two vents in the ceiling ducts, so that took some of the edge off. If it seems too dry in the winter, I also purchased a room humidifer that I will point away from my instruments. It also just takes the edge off.

My approach seems kind of elaborate when I read what I just wrote, but it's from a few years of tweaking. I started with just the basement, added a guage, added a humidifier, added ducts, etc. The only reason I did it in the first place was because I used to keep my instruments in the third floor room of a townhouse I lived in. In the summer, it was really hard to keep cool, even with central AC, since the thermostat was on the first floor. After one summer there, my Martin HD28 needed some work. It was so dry that the glue dried out on one of the braces. I love that guitar, and that's when I decided to take a proactive approach. Honestly, I never even knew it was something I should be concerned with until that happened.

My opinion: take care of your instrument exactly how the luthiers tell you to. They know what they're talking about. It's not dissimilar to people who ignore their physicians advice to stop smoking, cut back on drinking, lose some weight, and to get more exercise. Contrary to what some people think, physicians actually know what they're talking about sometimes, especially when it comes to self-preservation and feeling better on a daily basis. Luthiers do too, but mostly in terms of their instruments!

For what it's worth, I have two instruments that I think are very nice. I have the Martin I mentioned and my custom Weber Fern. I might buy a less-expensive mandolin for camping and festivals, but am otherwsie all set. I don't have lots of money, so I want to take the best possible care of these instruments. That said, I treated my Kentucky KM340s the same way when I had it, although I didn't obsess about it quite as much.

[Greg H.]

I'll admit at the start that I live in North Carolina where the natural humidity is fairly high. But. . .that said, I've found my wife's PAS (plant acquisition syndrome) keeps the humidity fairly high in our house even in the dead of winter (the lowest I've ever seen on the hygrometer on the wall as around 50%). So, my instruments stay out on stands in my music room and I've yet to see any problems there. But then, my kids are teenagers and some of my son's guitars are also in that music room so I can feel quite confident that there won't be any rough housing in there.

[MikeEdgerton]

I have often wondered why an instrument neck will dry and shrink and expose fret ends, but it won't grow and cover them when the seasonal humidity goes back up.
Mine did. Maybe you have to catch it early in the shrink cycle. I had my Gibson F5G for about a year when one day I noticed the fret ends were starting to protrude. My first inclination was to file them. Instead I added a humidifier inside the case and about a week later all was well.

[mandotool]

Lemmy rephrase this here In hopes of establishing some common ground rules….
Perhaps…. we can say.. that… it is more responsible for the care and feeding of a small heard of mannalins… to keep em mounted up on the wall ,out of reach of more aggressive critters like kids and such..
And to keep the afore mentioned room humiditied and tempified… in compliance with the the Mr. Fancy Pants Knowitall Security and shammy Act of 2007….

Or ……perhaps you are one of those types which advocate the invasive practice of wet/green catheter intubation..and the as yet unproven In-case Hydroponic systems….practiced by some of our Brethren and Sistren out there..

Really…Do all you folks really have time to run around monitoring all those in-case and mando/penetration type humidifiers in yer cryogenic vacuum chamber underground bunkers??????
Cause I fer one….consider it primative at best…
I suppose if a person did only have a couple a mannalins you could mebbe swing it though..

Ananother thing… I gotta say to that feller out west over there….Mr…."I'm not a pro but I play like one almost every day".....
First of all …Dude…,you gotta move …
Second of all .….keeping valuable mandolins in an Earthquake/Wildfire/Biblical disaster zone would not quite place you on the highground from wich to espouse theories for the care and feeding for mannalins..sorry.. Dude…yer out of order….
People shouldn’t ought to be keeping their Mannalins
Out in that godless country out there..
cept fer that feller ….Whats his name….what plays that South American Gypsy stuff out that way ….whats his name...Grisham ..
I understand he keeps his flavor in by Brining in a Trappist beer and kosher salt solution and then wrapping w/ black electrical tape… Now ,That’s not gonna be fer everybody but hey….workd fer him.
God bless and god’s Speed All..