"the loar" again

[Soupy1957]

I know that there are threads in here, (even ones that "I" participated in), with regard to the Loar:

TheLoar (http://www.theloar.com/index.php?id=1368)

so, please don't just comment with "here's a thread on this," for a response.

What I'd like to know, (and I didn't find much on this in those previous threads) is the tract record. #Did anyone actually BUY one and keep it for a while? #What is your over-all opinion, now that you've owned it for a while?

Thanks for your input, in advance. #Obviously it is a case of "you get what you pay for" but I'm interested in repeatable flaws, typical criticisms, and the positives that may be out there for this particular mandolin.

-Soupy1957

<remaining inappropriate content removed by moderator. As board policy, posters' sales transaction requests belong in the Classifieds Section>

[Soupy1957]

Sorry mandohack..didn't think my "P.S." constituted an actual contractual issue. I put my Epi and Washburn up for sale in the "Classified" section..

My MandoAd (http://www.mandolincafe.com/cgi-bin/classifieds/classifieds.cgi?search_and_display_db_button=on&db_id=25687&query=retrieval)


-Soupy1957

[Jim Broyles]

Face it, soupster. You got the bug again. You are going to buy a "The Loar" so why not do it already, then you can report to us what the deal is.

[Soupy1957]

Actually, no..I'm NOT going to buy the Loar (but I DO have "M.A.S." again, yes), but rather another mando on order as of this afternoon (the Kentucky KM630).

I had owned the 620B (my first mando) and frankly "missed" the sound, (if that can be imagined from a Pacrim).

-Soupy1957

[mandoforme]

Soupy, why not sell all your Pac-Rim mandolins and buy an American built mandolin? Check out the Glenn A-5 on Ebay with a starting bid of $600. More bang for your buck, than the Pac-Rim mandolins.

[Jim Broyles]

You are going essentially backwards with the KM-630 from the Washburn. Isn't the Washburn all solid? Seems like for the same money a "The Loar" would have been a better deal. The components are more desirable - ebony fretboard and bridge, Grover tuners, all solid woods, etc...

[Soupy1957]

Not going "backwards" if I don't sell the Washburn...I very much like the Washburn and the
Epi.

The first mandolin I ever bought, was the KM620B, and so I have an emotional connection to the Kentucky brand.

Who knows, perhaps I'll just keep em all!!

-Soupy1957

[cooper4205]

Then at least get a KM-805 or 855, you can find them for for a pretty reasonable price. I've played a few of these and they are really good mandolins for the price, better than any of the older Kentucky KM-700's and lower. Alvarez is making another good F-style in that price range, too. You don't hear much about them but their new F1, F2 and F3 models are really nice for the money. As for the Loar, I have played one (and only one), but it left a lot to be desired. Even though it looked good for its price range, it just didn't have much in the way of tone or volume. Like someone said before, though, if you were able to sell both of those mandolins for what you are asking, then you'd have more than enough money to get an American made A-style, or even order a Glenn student model F (he quoted me $1,100 for one with identical specs to an F5-G). Heck there was even a Gibson A9 for sale on here for a little over $900 (it might even still be up for sale).

[Soupy1957]

'preciate it, Cooper
-Soupy1957

[Paul Hostetter]

FWIW, I have the very first "The Loar" prototype in my possession right now. 100% hand-carved and inlaid - not like the Korean ones at all, it's the only one there is, so far, and it's a very promising first stab. With any luck, MusicLink will be showing a few more at NAMM in Anaheim in January. There will be several models at different price points, but they're all going to be good and extremely affordable. The MusicLink shop is building mandolins and archtop guitars. This is me chopping the inevitable G chord on mandolino numero uno and the estimable Greg Rich with the first archtop guitar, which is also a stunning instrument.

http://www.lutherie.net/theloar.greg.jpg

There will be more mandolins from this shop in 2008:

http://www.lutherie.net/theloar.5.jpg

Here's the guitar Greg is holding being carved. No CNC in Shanghai.

http://www.lutherie.net/theloar.4.jpg

[Dave Cowles]

Paul, I'm confused when you say the proto you're holding in the pic with Greg (affectionately known on the Blueridge Forum as "Green Shoes" and "######") is the only one so far. There are "The Loar" mandos on ebay and at retailers right now. Are you talking about a totally new, re-tooled lot here?
Dave

[MikeEdgerton]

It's a little confusing but note the bold portion of what Paul said:

I have the very first "The Loar" prototype in my possession right now. 100% hand-carved and inlaid - not like the Korean ones at all, it's the only one there is, so far, and it's a very promising first stab.

This is obviously a new direction for the product.

[dirty harry]

If trying to make a living and not charging twenty five thousand dollars an instrument, sounds like CNC might be the way to go. [/I]

[Paul Hostetter]

Mike's right. Previous "The Loar" instruments weren't made in this new shop in China (maybe not even in China at all) and they were certainly not generated the way the ones will be. MusicLink has literally started with a bare patch of ground to build a new shop for making these instruments, and what you see Greg and me holding are the first items out of that shop. A whole new thing, no comparison. The makers are all accomplished violinmakers adapting their skills to these instruments - logical enough, and there are many fine violinmakers in China. There are some aesthetic details to mop up, but the basic instruments are terrific. One of the other primary active MusicLink folks in this project is Travis Atz. Here we are giving the mandolin a serious going-over:

http://www.lutherie.net/theloar.ph.travis.jpg

BTW, MusicLink and Saga (which markets the Blueridges) are two separate outfits. Greg started Blueridge and Gitanes for Saga and then went to work for MusicLink. He's the Art Guy, and quite a brilliant one.

[JEStanek]

Paul,
Thanks for your updates on this new and improved version of The Loar brand mandolins. It sounds like the Eastman model for making instruments overseas is taking hold (i.e., not mass produced but hand carved instruments) which I feel is a good thing. Soon enough I hope people will realize that a Made in China sticker on their instrument is not synonymous with pressed topped, over finished junk.

Are you involved with the production as a consultant/interest or are you just friends with the Greg Rich and Co.? If you know more, like will there be A styles and oval holes, please let us know. This is an exciting time for the sub $2k mandolin market!

Jamie

[devilsbox]

I'd like to know more about the "cheaper" Loar. They look real good in pictures but how do they sound? These are made in Korea? I have an older Korean Washburn m3sw, nice workmanship but sound is a little thin IMO.

[Paul Hostetter]

Jamie – in more specific response to your question about what else might MusicLink have up their sleeves: yes, there will be oval-hole models and much more, count on it. As I mentioned, and I wasn’t kidding, they started with an empty lot not that long ago, so having the building and populating it with craftsmen who can generate these things is astonishing considering how little time has elapsed. Once they have the F-models dialed in and in production, you can expect some other stuff pretty quick. I saw a prototype of the new John Jorgenson model of Paris Swing mandolin, a really nifty item I might add, and that entire line will be shifted to China shortly, which means they’ll be made quite differently than they been have up to this point.

One thing I like about MusicLink is that, rather than just making what everyone else is making, they’re interested in doing entirely new things. The Paris Swing and the Recording King banjos are two really good examples. Expect some surprises in the mandolin department (and the guitar department too) but maybe not until after NAMM!

[cooper4205]

One thing I like about MusicLink is that, rather than just making what everyone else is making, they’re interested in doing entirely new things. The Paris Swing and the Recording King banjos are two really good examples. Expect some surprises in the mandolin department (and the guitar department too) but maybe not until after NAMM!
I have heard alot of good things from some good players about the new Recording King guitars, especially the herringbone models. Paul, do you know if the U.S.-made mandos will be available for sale, or are they just working the kinks out here before the operation moves overseas? Sounds like the Eastman philosophy might be catching on in the world of affordable mandolins.

[Paul Hostetter]

A) Everything I have talked about so far is about instruments made in China. I showed pictures of the shop in China and the prototypes made there that we were checking out here in California. They're not making them in the US, not even the prototypes. They're 100% made in China.

B) Eastman was hardly the first outfit to have export instruments made to specs in China, though I understand why fretted-instrument people would consider them the "model" of this kind of endeavor. But long before there were Chinese mandolins and guitars, there were violins, and lots of them. I was buying high-end Chinese violins 20 years before Eastman emerged. The jump from carved bowed instruments to carved plucked instruments is a fairly small one - nowadays in China as it was in Kalamazoo for Orville Gibson many years earlier.

[Kbone]

A) Everything I have talked about so far is about instruments made in China. I showed pictures of the shop in China and the prototypes made there that we were checking out here in California. They're not making them in the US, not even the prototypes. They're 100% made in China.

B) Eastman was hardly the first outfit to have export instruments made to specs in China, though I understand why fretted-instrument people would consider them the "model" of this kind of endeavor. But long before there were Chinese mandolins and guitars, there were violins, and lots of them. I was buying high-end Chinese violins 20 years before Eastman emerged. The jump from carved bowed instruments to carved plucked instruments is a fairly small one - nowadays in China as it was in Kalamazoo for Orville Gibson many years earlier.
Hi Paul:
Before I read this thread all the way through I gave Janet Davis a call and asked about the Loar mandolin & they told me it was built in China ? and they were very good and said some professional player named Andy is using one. So do they have it wrong ? just curious...thanks

[texfid]

I have #had a THE LOAR, Made in china for about 5 months now and play it daily. #I realy like the playability and sound. I can not find any thing to complain about. The construction and finish seem flawless. #I had an Eastman #615 several years ago and I really like this new introduction better. TEX FID. ROGER

[Kbone]

I have #had a THE LOAR, Made in china for about 5 months now and play it daily. #I realy like the playability and sound. I can not find any thing to complain about. The construction and finish seem flawless. #I had an Eastman #615 several years ago and I really like this new introduction better. # TEX FID. # ROGER
Geez ! Now I'm really confused, old age is setting in I guess - at Elderly Music' you can see the sticker on the back of the neck & it says " Made in China", not in Korea, and it's still 07' last I checked - somebody help me ! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Paul Hostetter]

OK, this may not help much but: an entire enormous Korean production facility was moved to China, lock, stock and barrel. They make a ton of stuff to order for a lot of different marketing outfits that used to be "Made in Korea" and are now marked "Made in China." The production is the same as it was in Korea, and things like the mandolins we're all concerned with are probably pressed and semi-carved. This would describe the "Loar" Chinese mandolins you're finding at Janet Davis and Elderly now. They're definitely quite good for the money, I like ‘em, but that facility simply doesn't have the ability to make mandolins the way many of us wish they would. This is why MusicLink has started its own facility, literally from the ground up, with the objective of making a much higher-quality instrument. Make sense?

The person at MusicLink who would know if there were ever Korean-made Loar mandolins is Travis, and he's in Shanghai and therefore out of touch for the moment. It's possible there were some Korean Loars, but in any case the ones marked "Made in China" are essentially the same as Korean instruments.

http://elderly.com/images/new_instruments/90N/LM500VS_headstock-back.jpg

[Kbone]

Thank you Paul - I was starting to think I was ready for the home away from home. How soon will these new "Loars" be available to the consumer & how will we be able to tell the difference from the China/Korean v/s the new ones coming out. thanks..

[brunello97]

Paul et al,

If you can indulge my architect's wonkishness anytime along the way of this ongoing discussion, I would love to see pictures of the Chinese facility. (Interior and exterior if ever possible.) I'm both fascinated and horrified simultaneously by rapid Chinese building and industrialization (at all type scales.)

The fact that industrial (mandolin, in this case) production and building production may be conceived simultaneously obviously goes back to at least our Michigan ur-builder Albert Kahn. It remains a very interesting synchronicity to me, however subtle the expression that might result.

A colleague of mine is building a factory for high end garment production somewhere in the south of China. The building was cranked out (site cast concrete) on an insanely fast schedule. Incredibly butch work all around (a nice design buried in there somewhere.) But for me it was a serious introduction to a reality I might only confront at Home Depot-or pass by in Highland Park.

I know this is outside the scope of carved tops and backs etc. etc. But my fascination with bowlbacks has led to a graduate structures seminar where we are exploring contemporary adaptations of Catalonian thin shell masonry vaults. (Some tests will used CNC 'carved-tops' formwork) We're going to build a prototype in the spring and then a larger set of constructions in Detroit in the fall. (The old Detroit train station vaulted hall uses this Catalan system for its 'arch top' form-as do many of NYCs larger early 20th c spaces.) Brian Dean's explorations into his 'Embergher' construction was more than just inspirational.

I'm trying to have my cake and eat it.

More on the Loar!

Mick

[Paul Hostetter]

Keith, I don't know how you'll be able to tell right now. I find the succession of such different instruments under one brand rather baffling. Perhaps they'll have a label inside? I know you'll certainly be able to tell by the sound, of course, and some aesthetic details. There is a history of this in Asian-made instruments, going back f'rinstance to the earliest Saga gypsy guitars which were first made in Japan and sounded really good to several later iterations of the same guitars made by subcontractors in other production facilities in Japan and Korea which weren't nearly as good. Eventually they were abysmally bad, but they had the same model numbers and catalog ID, as if nothing had changed. Even though this one's going the other direction, it was confusing then, and it's still confusing.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Mick - Catalonian catenary arches? In Detroit? Is this the egg before the chicken?

http://www.thederelictsensation.com/images/c_mantey/mantey_levelb_5_591_396.jpg

This is where I always caught the train to Toronto when I needed to get out of Detroit!

[brunello97]

Paul,

That's the one. Rafael Guastavino brought the Catalan thin shell masonry vaulting construction process to NYC and turned it up to 11. A lot of NYC Subway, Grand Central Station, Williamsburg Bridge viaduct, Boston Public Library, etc. etc. and the main hall in Detroit. It's been closed since long long before my arrival here, but my students snuck me in through a rear tunnel last winter. Lots of the ceiling finish tiles have dropped off and you can see the Catalan structural tiles above.

Guastavino was an amazing character and almost forgotten in the world of architecture and engineering. His work predated thin shell concrete by decades. That his structures were hidden by what was later deemed as unfashionable 'classical' facades perhaps explains some of the neglect. I've been falling deep into this stuff of late (and contemporary permutations) so forgive my exuberance.

Yes, it IS the egg before the chicken in some ways. Catalan vaults are catenary and Gaussian-curved in both x and y axes-like an egg-which helps give them their super high strength to thickness ratio. Much like a carved top, which you are very familiar with.

The train station hasn't changed much sad to say. Probably filled with too much asbestos to renovate. Too significant to pull down. So it looms over a booming and hispanifyin' SW Detroit. Man, what a weird place. No wonder Toronto beckoned.

Mick

[Stephen Perry]

Keith, I don't know how you'll be able to tell right now. I find the succession of such different instruments under one brand rather baffling.
Yes, gets disturbing. Gibson, Flatiron, various violin brands, even my violin house brand names do this! I suspect it comes from the effort taken to develop a brand and the changing opportunities, needs, and random events on the manufacturing end. I know when I develop a brand and my source goes away, I look for a replacement product rather than abandon the brand!

[Kbone]

Keith, I don't know how you'll be able to tell right now. I find the succession of such different instruments under one brand rather baffling. Perhaps they'll have a label inside? I know you'll certainly be able to tell by the sound, of course, and some aesthetic details. There is a history of this in Asian-made instruments, going back f'rinstance to the earliest Saga gypsy guitars which were first made in Japan and sounded really good to several later iterations of the same guitars made by subcontractors in other production facilities in Japan and Korea which weren't nearly as good. Eventually they were abysmally bad, but they had the same model numbers and catalog ID, as if nothing had changed. Even though this one's going the other direction, it was confusing then, and it's still confusing.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Mick - Catalonian catenary arches? In Detroit? Is this the egg before the chicken?

http://www.thederelictsensation.com/images/c_mantey/mantey_levelb_5_591_396.jpg

This is where I always caught the train to Toronto when I needed to get out of Detroit!
Hmm, well Paul you could sell me numero uno - come on, Christmas is coming http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Gene Bragg]

I know this has nothing to do with "the Loar" but with the "made in China" or "Korea" comments. I bought my first mando from Morgan Monroe and it said that it was "handmade" with all the componantsa listed. Sinse there were no shops in my town that sold mandos I bought on line. When I got my mando I was pleased with the appearence and thinking "handmade"(in USA"?) I found the little gols sticker "Made In China"! Is it hand made or notor semi-handmade? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif Are most mandos out sourced?

[Bill Snyder]

It is made in a factory that churns instruments (of differing brands) out by the thousands.
I am not sure what constitutes handmade to the people marketing these but I am sure the employees use their hands at some point in the manufacturing process.
Some of the Chinese instruments are hand made (individually carved by hand and not machine) at facilities that only build one brand. Most notable in this group would be Eastman, but apparently others are starting to do the same.

[Glassweb]

Let's face it... if this new import called "The Loar" didn't have such a legendary, iconic name attached to it would we even be discussing it? Certainly not. Only the Gibson signed Loars of the early 1920's merit such attention... certainly not some cheap import with a silly inlay on the headstock. What a joke! At least Eastman has their own thing going...

[Kbone]

Let's face it... if this new import called "The Loar" didn't have such a legendary, iconic name attached to it would we even be discussing it? Certainly not. Only the Gibson signed Loars of the early 1920's merit such attention... certainly not some cheap import with a silly inlay on the headstock. What a joke! At least Eastman has their own thing going...
I trust Paul's judgement when he says it's going to be a fine mando at a good price _ I don't think he'd endorse a piece of junk & as far as the 'Loar" name...I think we all get it..

[Glassweb]

I hear you Keith... and it's true, we all get it. Still, as someone who's been enamored with the Loar F5 since the early 1970's, well... it just seems kind of blasphemous. Obviously my problem. Oh well, time for bird and beer - Happy Thanksgiving to you all, with a big thanks to the big Turkeymeister - ST!

[Kbone]

I hear you Keith... and it's true, we all get it. Still, as someone who's been enamored with the Loar F5 since the early 1970's, well... it just seems kind of blasphemous. Obviously my problem. Oh well, time for bird and beer - Happy Thanksgiving to you all, with a big thanks to the big Turkeymeister - ST!
I know what you mean by the " Loar" I had the privilege of playing one several yrs ago. best..

[foldedpath]

I trust Paul's judgment too, but it's gotta be a marketing nightmare to have a bunch of cheaper instruments already out there in the marketplace, and then try to sell a more upscale instrument with the exact same name and general look. Will those other instruments remain in production?

If I hadn't seen Paul's post here, I'd think "The Loar"s were all like the one I saw down at our local music store -- great fit and finish for the price, obviously a lot of attention to the cosmetics, but a bunch of other mandolins in the shop sounded better for less money.

[Paul Hostetter]

Let's face it... if this new import called "The Loar" didn't have such a legendary, iconic name attached to it would we even be discussing it? Certainly not.
People certainly have spent a lot of time here at the Cafe talking about Eastman mandolins, and that name was not freighted at all. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Paul Hostetter]

Keith - you want to buy a dilapidated train station in SW Detroit??

[Kbone]

Keith - you want to buy a dilapidated train station in SW Detroit??
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif Nah...the mando Paul, the mando !

[Paul Hostetter]

Break's over. Here's a photo taken this morning of (L-R) Greg Rich, my own self, and Travis Atz, squinting valiantly into the sun and holding the three freshest prototypes from the Music Link Shanghai shop. Greg and Travis are the two most critical guys in the strategizing and development of all the string instruments from Music Link. Every once in awhile they let me come over and nitpick and make suggestions, but they're on it every day.

http://www.lutherie.net/greg-ph-travis-3.jpg

All these went from Shanghai to the Musikmesse in Frankfurt, and just arrived here in California yesterday. Greg called me about them in the afternoon afternoon, and I zoomed over there this morning to see them.

Being the Mandolin Cafe, you are probably only interested in the mandolin Greg has here, but I'm holding the latest archtop, and Travis is holding a 12-fret 000 destined for the Recording King "Historic" line. The Loar archtops have always sounded incredible, this is about the fifth prototype I've seen so far, and it's most of the way there with regards to fine points. The 000 is terrific as well, and just needs some bridge detail dialed in.

The mandolin though - wow! All the details of binding and carving are now completely taken care of. The folks in Shanghai carved 60 or 70 of them - and then dumped them all - before getting it right. So the first batch is well underway. Nitro finish over beautiful wood, ebony board and bridge, ivoroid binding, all the good stuff you hope to find on a completely hand-made instrument.

http://www.lutherie.net/TheLoarFlorentine-front.jpg

http://www.lutherie.net/TheLoarFlorentine-back.jpg

A few more little details are still in the works, such as a different tailpiece cover, positioning of the lettering on the headstock, bridge saddle compensation pattern. Actually the one it has now plays beautifully in tune, but someone's bound to whinge that it's not exactly like a Gibson. Still in the works is the tuner choice. Grover is the likely candidate right now. Eventually there will be three grades of this mandolin, mostly based on materials choices. I think this one is the middle grade. The high-end one may have Gotoh tuners and a fancier headstock inlay, that sort of thing. Another tuning machine is being explored for feasibility.

Here's the best part: it sounds absolutely great. Even with rubber-bandified strings from Frankfurt, it still sounds terrific. I wish I could keep it and play it just to hear it blossom over the next few months, but I'll have to be patient.

The first page of this thread has some shots of the shop, if you want to go back and look. I promised an update when there was one, and this is the update. I'm very excited about these instruments, they've really matured. More as it unfolds.

[allenhopkins]

Paul -- prospective price ranges for the three models?

[Paul Hostetter]

The flowerpot model" above will have a retail price of $995, and a street price below that, maybe $750-800? There will eventually be a simpler lower priced version with a fleur-de-lis and a fancier one with a fern motif. They are still deciding on names and model designations for these. In any case, they'll have a dated label inside that will remove all doubt about whether they were hand-made in Shanghai, so they don't become confused with the earlier Loar mandolins made elsewhere.

I've corrected a couple of details in the post above.

That guitar, by the way, will sell, full retail, for $1295.

[Rocky Top]

Can't wait for the arch-top guitar! Paul, any estimate as to when the arch-tops will hit the streets and how widespread they'll be? Thanks.

[Paul Hostetter]

I just realized I mistyped the price for the guitar - full pop will be $1195, and the street price will be probably around $850 or so. None of these instruments are going to be coming in in large batches, probably ever, but they're in production right now like the mandolins are. Stay tuned.

http://www.lutherie.net/TheLoarMandolinGuitar.jpg

[Adam Tracksler]

I played one last week at a daddys junky music in Portsmouth, it sounded good, especially for @ $400. If I'd had an extra 4 benjamins, I would have taken it home.

[Rick Cadger]

I played one last week at a daddys junky music in Portsmouth, it sounded good, especially for @ $400. If I'd had an extra 4 benjamins, I would have taken it home.
Was that one of the "real" one's Paul's talking about, or one of the advance-guard of standard Pac-rim jobbies that are nothing like them?

[Adam Tracksler]

i dont know. it was used, and i was killing time. it souded really nice though. looked like a solid carved top.

[MikeEdgerton]

Chances are it was a pressed top if it was used. The one's Paul is discussing most likely isn't available on the used market yet.

[cooper4205]

Chances are it was a pressed top if it was used. The one's Paul is discussing most likely isn't available on the used market yet.
are they even available new yet? (the nicer ones, that is)

[MikeEdgerton]

I don't think so. Paul will probably post a message when they are.

[Desert Rose]

No they are not

ANY mandolin you have seen with the Loar name new or used at this point is a Korean pressed top instrument in the $400 to $700 range

[Soupy1957]

Thanks for all the chatter in my thread ya'll. Paul, I've sent you a couple of e-mails (to the address you have hooked in to this website) about the chance to visit the production facility when I go BACK to Shanghai again next month.
Please respond. I'd LOVE to see them built, if possible.

All,
The Exchange Rate (although the typical Exchange Offices rip you off when you go there), is typically 7.1 Rnb = $1.00 (for the record).

-Soupy1957

[mandozilla]

I bought a "The Loar" in August 2007. The label inside said it was "Made in China". The literature that came with it stated the top and back were "hand carved" and "solid wood". The list price was $899.00...I paid $450.00 including HSC and shipping on ebay. Fit and finish are quite stunning and playability is very good, however, it hasn't much volume or tone. I don't know, maybe it needs a good set up or just time to open up.. If I had payed full price, I would have been very disappointed. It's not my primary mandolin...it looks purdy hangin' on the wall.

[Perry Babasin]

I bought my "The Loar" in December of 2007. Same "Made in China" label as mandozilla. The ebay dealer (who is usually very honest and has great reviews) said hand-carved and solid wood. I paid $550 w/hsc. Good volume and sweet woody tone. It is very playable and beautifully constructed (the back is my photo avatar). I understand that it isn't one of the new instruments that this thread is talking about, it is definitely one of the older ones. Frankly I like the color of the finish better than the new ones that are pictured here anyway. I have a customer service inquiry to their email contact discussing the issue of carving and the slightly deceptive (or at least confusing) marketing. I'll let you know what they have to say.

At this point it really doesn't matter much, at least for now. It sounds good, looks good, plays good and amplifies more natural sounding than any of my other mandolins. I pick daily and play & sing with my worship team weekly, and this is my primary (and current favorite) mandolin.

Perry

[Paul Hostetter]

I just discovered I was no longer getting notices of this thread, not sure how that happened.

In case anyone is in any doubt about whether their "The Loar" mandolin is hand-carved in the new Shanghai shop, which is the only place they are hand-carved, they only need to look inside and see if the label says something like LH or LM 600 on it. If the label says anything else than 600, it's not from Shanghai and it's not 100% hand-made.

Furthermore, none of the production from that shop has yet hit the market, so no such labels exist yet either, though it won't be long. But when they do start rolling out of Shanghai, they are all already pre-sold to retailers who placed advanced orders. If you're jonesing for one, contact someone like Elderly or whoever and get yourself on one of their lists.

Music Link has several pretty successful instrument lines right now, including their Recording King banjos with a new model called the Sonny Osborne Chief, which is pre-ordered a couple of hundred into the future. Dell'Artes, their gypsy jazz guitars, are the same. Greg Rich, who's the main art wizard for Music Link and the guy responsible for the Recording King banjos, can't even get a Dell'Arte guitar for himself. He's got to wait, for at least a year. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Paul Hostetter]

For a few months I have refrained from posting anything more about the mandolins because there weren't any to be had, but as of this week, the first shipment of "The Loar" 600 series handmade, solid wood fully carved mandolins have arrived at the dealers that ordered them. They went to Mandolin Brothers, Gruhn, Elderly, the usual suspects, along with some of the 16" archtop guitars.

Alas I was teaching at a music camp last week and they all arrived from China and went out promptly to the shops that ordered them, so I never got to see one. So I'd be very interested to hear reactions from anyone who's laid hands on one.

Over the past few months I have discovered several online dealers selling the earlier pressed-top "The Loar" mandolins from the 500 series claiming they were hand-carved and so on. It's still not true. The folks at Music Link have chased down the dealers making those claims and set them straight. You can hear the difference even when it's not visually evident. If you've had a crack at one of the 600 series mandolins, I'd love to hear what you think.

[Banjo Stan]

Hey Paul,
I spoke with Greg Rich this morning and he's was telling me all about the new hand carved Loar. I was debating between the Sumi F5 and a Collings MF. I think I'm going with the 600 series Loar.

Thanks,

[Folkmusician.com]

I've only seen a few images out there and was not sure what is of the productions models... #so here we go... # Just taken today. The Loar LV-600-VS:

http://www.folkmusician.com/images_full/lm-600-vs-f.jpg

[Jim Broyles]

I have twice emailed one eBay seller with over 1300 feedback, 100% positive, that the 500 is pressed even though it is listed as carved. I was ignored the first time, this time I provided link to each mandolin on Music Link's site. I am the "Truth in Mandolins" crusader, I guess.

[Jim Broyles]

Got a reply that Music Link has told the seller that the LM500 is carved. ??

[TomTyrrell]

Did you also tell that seller the guy's name wasn't "Load Loar"?

[Jim Broyles]

Advised seller to communicate directly with Greg Rich.

[Paul Hostetter]

Got a reply that Music Link has told the seller that the LM500 is carved. ??
Nonsense, of course. She can't honestly insist she got the specs on the 500 right, as they're on the Music Link website (http://theloar.com/LM-500-VS.html). Solid wood, yes. Hand-carved - not there.

Greg, who's an art guy and not keen on either email or conflict, isn't the logical guy there to set this dreamy person (http://cgi.ebay.com/The-Loar-F-Style-Mandolin-with-Case-Strap-SMOOTH_W0QQitemZ310080752996) straight, but Travis Atz (http://www.themusiclink.net/Travis-Atz-Promoted.1917.0.html), who's the product development bossman there, would make the point clear. I know he's done it with other errant sellers. He checks in here from time to time and I bet will chase this down. Too bad he even has to worry about it.

[Jim Broyles]

She says:

I have spoken with Music Link several times over the years concerning their Loar LM500 mandolin, and I did call them since you sent me an e-mail. The Loar LM500 is carved. I do know that the website simply says that it is solid but Music Link confirmed to me that the LM500 is also carved.

[Paul Hostetter]

And she's either not telling the truth, or she's stubbornly trading in wishful thinking. Greg was reading this and wrote me this this morning:


Tell them they're not carved ...... I guess some people think "all solid" means carved as well ...... I'll tell them the difference today.

[TomTyrrell]

Lots of opportunity to profit from confusion with the differences in "solid", "carved" and "hand carved." Few people know the difference before they buy their first mandolin.

[mandroid]

Automation does a good job of doing the same thing repeatedly.

CNC now , Duplicarver linked routers back a few years.

I have seen the F top and back plate patterns, I was told they came from the closing sale,
at the Gibson Kalamazoo Facility.

[Paul Hostetter]

The pressed F tops are rather interesting, in that they are machined after the joining and pressing. This follows another machining innovation I'd originally seen in Korean instruments of the violin family, where the inside is the simple flat surface of the original board, with a second simple flat machined to receive the sides, as seen below. Then the outside is machined to look like a normally carved plate. They weigh a ton, but this makes fitting soundposts really easy!
http://www.lutherie.net/semi-carved.violin.jpg
Quite a contrast from the Mirecourt/Chicago style of pressing a simple flat sheet into an arched shape. The above image is an amended scan of a Guarneri del Gesu violin, by the way.

The Shanghai Loar 600 series, like the Eastmans and the Jades and so on, are of course completely hand-carved by people who know what they're doing.

[Jeff Hildreth]

Thanks for the info Paul

I am replacing a mando soon, theswe look like a great alternative to Eastman
Did I miss what the nut width might be, I fiond the 1 1/16th Eastmans unplayable for that reason

Have you seen and played the Loar 600 Archtop guitar and what is your opinion ?

I am also looking for an archtop and the list so far is the Godin 5th Ave with lam top or an Eastman
If the Loar is a quality unit, even close to Eastman, I would prefer the Loar for its 1 3/4 nut and general specs
plus killer good looks

Thanks

[Paul Hostetter]

The Loar mandolin nut width is more generous. Unfortunately I left mine in Berkeley yesterday and can't run and measure it. I know you're only supposed to play one string at a time, but I can't deal with skinny necks either.

I have played a bunch of the Loar 16" archtop prototypes, and would be happy to own any of them. They had a more direct hit with them, at least acoustically, than with the mandolins during the development phase. Last I checked, they still had a few aesthetic details to sort out on the guitars, but at those prices, who cares? I'm trying to get back up there later this week so I can check on things. Often they get new instruments in but they're all destined for shops and only stay on-site for a matter of hours.

Old shot of me and Greg with prototypes. I don't think they're doing bound f-holes routinely.

http://www.lutherie.net/theloar.greg.jpg

Why a laminated top? So you can sit on it? Don't you want it to sound good?

[Folkmusician.com]

Received a few more of the LM-600-VS....

The nut width is 1 1/8" :)

[Banjo Stan]

My "The Loar" should arrive in 2 days.
:mandosmiley:Can't wait!

[Perry Babasin]

Lots of opportunity to profit from confusion with the differences in "solid", "carved" and "hand carved." Few people know the difference before they buy their first mandolin.

Particularly when there is a "carved detail" in the scroll area, front and back. I'm kind of thinking the design is a bit misleading, as well. Most pressed boxes I've seen have smooth scrolls and are quite obviously pressed. They must have some severe/intense pressing machine.

BTW, one year later my LM-500-VS still looks and sounds great pressed, carved or otherwise.

[Perry Babasin]

Lots of opportunity to profit from confusion with the differences in "solid", "carved" and "hand carved." Few people know the difference before they buy their first mandolin.

Particularly when there is a "carved detail" in the scroll area, front and back. I'm kind of thinking the design is a bit misleading, as well. Most pressed boxes I've seen have smooth scrolls and are quite obviously pressed. They must have some severe/intense pressing machine.

BTW, one year later my LM-500-VS (the old one) still looks and sounds great pressed, carved or otherwise.

[Paul Hostetter]

That "carved detail" is in fact machined, it's not pressed that hard! See the detail from the cello above - same factory, same idea.

Glad to hear your 500 is singing away!:whistling:

[Perry Babasin]

That "carved detail" is in fact machined

Thanks for the clarification. I figured it had to be something like that, the shaping was too severe, but all I kept hearing was how the top was pressed not carved. From everyone that is but my "dreamy" friend who sold me the instrument. Even my friends at Music Link confirmed that it was pressed. Oh well, live and learn.

Thanks.............. Perry

[Amandalyn]

Just listed 2 in the New classified section.......

[Michael Eck]

Howdy folks,

As you can tell from my low number of posts, I'm new here, but I have been lurking for quite a while.

I wanted to add some comments to the discussions of the new The Loar LM 600 VS mandolin.

Before I do, I'd like to make it clear that one of the groups I'm in, a duo called The Gospel Train, endorses the brand, and we are featured on their website. I spoke with Scott when I first signed up at the Cafe and asked if would be appropriate for me to make comments as long as I identified myself as an endorser and he said it would OK.

The main reason I held off on making comments is because -- as you may know by now -- these puppies are still a little hard to come by. I was actually on a waiting list for a number of months, and I finally got mine a little over a week ago.

I must say it was worth the wait.

I received the Fed Ex delivery at 3 p.m. on a Tuesday afternoon. I put on a new set of D'Addarios and had The Loar in the studio that night with another band I'm in, Ramblin Jug Stompers. Our engineer is also a mandolin player (He's much better than me and his main instrument these days is an Eastman 815 prototype he picked up in Arizona). He was quite impressed with The Loar ("It's got more bark than my Eastman!") and suggested I use it on the track we working on rather than my 1921 Gibson A.

I've sinced used The Loar on gigs with the jug band and the gospel duo and it worked wonderfully in both applications.

With the jug band one regular audience member approached me after the show and said, hey you actually play the mandolin, I've never heard it over the banjo and the washboard. The Loar cut right through.

In the gospel duo (we're a one mic band) I had to back off the mic a little more than I do with my 80s Kentucky KM700 (an instrument I've enjoyed for years which I believe will now be sitting in its case an awful lot).

I've been banging on The Loar everyday and it's opening up very nicely. At first it had plenty of volume but not as much character as I had hoped for. But it's a solid carved instrument so it's voice will take a while to come out, and it's already starting to sing instead of just bark.

I really like the slightly wider fingerboard, which feels like my old Gibson rather than the narrower Kentucky. And the finish, which is nicely done everywhere except inside the scroll and headstock curls, is the real thing. I can tell it's nitro because I've already added two dings with my strap buckle. I think it'll scratch if you look at it sideways, as opposed to usual heavy Pac Rim gloss you can bounce quarters off of.

Anyhow, I'm really pleased. I have precious little experience with getting instruments by mail, so I was scared. Even though I have had a Loar LH 200 guitar for over a year I wasn't quite sure what to expect from the mando.

It's my main axe now, and I think it will remain so even after this first flush wears off.

Having tried Kentuckys, Morgan Monroes, Eastmans and the like I think it's a great deal. I pointed out to a local shop owner that no one would mistake The Loar for a Collings and he said, true, but is the difference in sound worth well over two thousand dollars. For me, right now, it's not, and I'd recommend (again with the clear caveat that I endorse the brand -- which stemmed from our use of their guitars) the LM 600.

I'd also like to thank Paul Hostetter, whom I've never met or had any contact with, for all of his good info leading up to the release of the instruments. His responses sparked my interest and then kept it stoked.

I'd also like to agree with him about the fact that LM 500 instruments are not even in the same class with the LM 600s. They are different beasts entirely, and I would not recommend (based on the one instrument I tried in a local store) the 500 for anyone but a beginner, and even then the 600 is so much better for so little more.

I hope no one feels like this post has been an advertisement (or a novel). It was not intended as such. It just seemed a complete repsonse was warranted by the many questions folks have had about the instrument.

I'm excited to become a part of this online community. I'm not usually much of a message board guy, but my partner, Lillie, already teases me for spending more time lurking on the forum than I do with my family.

Best,
Michael

[Banjo Stan]

Michael,
My LM 600 VS arrived Thursday and I'm real excited about it. I haven't changed the strings yet but probably will today. It's great looking and very light weight. It has got some serious volume too. The feather lite case is very nice and I paid extra for the hard case as well.

My Epiphone MM50 won't get a lot of action unless I keep it under my desk at work to practice. I'm taking the Loar with me to the NashCamp Banjo Retreat in October. Hopefully Roland White will be there and I can get him to check it out. I'm playing a lot more mandolin these days.:mandosmiley:

[Stephen Perry]

It's really nice. I'd upgrade to the new Guardian case, myself. Clearly a contender. I suppose I'll take it to IBMA and someone will buy it!

Nice to see more manufacturers really taking performance at the low end of the market seriously.

[mandozilla]

Soooo...help me out here, is the LM500 solid wood/pressed or solid wood/machine carved? It's not clear to me...I must be stupid or something. I have an LM500 I bought a year or so ago. I'd like to know because if it's machine carved, maybe a Mandovoodoo treatment and a good set up might improve it a bit aye Mr. Perry? If it's pressed, I'll probably donate it to some underprivelidged kid or a trooper in Iraq or something. Thanks. :cool:

[Stephen Perry]

There's nothing really wrong with pressing instrument plates. I don't see the specs as indicating not-pressed. So I don't think you're being stupid to ask! It's certainly solid wood. If you'd like me to take a look, send it out. Or donate it and buy something else. Buying new things is always fun!

[cooper4205]

Soooo...help me out here, is the LM500 solid wood/pressed or solid wood/machine carved? It's not clear to me...I must be stupid or something. I have an LM500 I bought a year or so ago. I'd like to know because if it's machine carved, maybe a Mandovoodoo treatment and a good set up might improve it a bit aye Mr. Perry? If it's pressed, I'll probably donate it to some underprivelidged kid or a trooper in Iraq or something. Thanks. :cool:

The 500 series mandolins are pressed while the 600s are carved.

[TomTyrrell]

Pressed solid plates are not a bad thing. They are different than carved plates but they are not bad. They can even get better with time but they will always be different than carved plates. The pressed plate mandolins just don't develop the complexity of tone that carved plate mandos can.

For those who only care about volume a pressed plate mando may be all they need.

[Perry Babasin]

Soooo...help me out here, is the LM500 solid wood/pressed or solid wood/machine carved? It's not clear to me...I must be stupid or something. I have an LM500 I bought a year or so ago. I'd like to know because if it's machine carved, maybe a Mandovoodoo treatment and a good set up might improve it a bit aye Mr. Perry? If it's pressed, I'll probably donate it to some underprivelidged kid or a trooper in Iraq or something. Thanks. :cool:

I wrote to the Music Link customer service some time ago and they confirmed that the solid-wood top and bottom plates are pressed, however the scroll detail is being represented on their website as hand-carved not machined.

I have been playing mine hard for about a year now, and am very torn. After putting a good bridge and good solid tailpiece on the instrument I have found it to be sweet, subtle and loud when I need it to be. Really nice mid-range and low end, and the highs are not brassy or tinny but there is an over-all rich woody sound.

If the new carved model had been available when I purchased, yes I would have picked it. When I purchased my 500 it was represented as hand carved. The very nice fit and finish, wood and scroll detail led me to believe that it was hand-carved. Soooo I like it and will play it until I can afford something much better. Frankly I really like the brown wood color finish better than the new ruddy/red yellow finish they have going now anyway.:mandosmiley:

Thanks.............. Perry

[Ken Olmstead]

There is no doubt in my mind that if I had not gotten such a great deal on a KM1000, I would certainly give one of these new 600s a try. I mean spec-wise speaking, that is gobs of mando for $750! However, it would have to sound pretty great as the new KM-675s kick behind!!

[Stephen Perry]

The 600 model is certainly nice. I set mine up yesterday. Very nice. It opens up competition for the Eastman MD515 and the equivalent price point Kentucky mandolins. They're all such different products! Just amazing that this relatively minor market attracts such fine products.

Given the variation in individual mandolins, the variation in setup, the variation in amount of break in when played for testing, and the numerous other variables including taste, I don't think they'll be one clear winner at any given price point. I do know what brand has sold the best in side by side competition here. Which I find pretty interesting.

[Banjo Stan]

I've had my 600 for 2 weeks now and after changing strings, it's really finding it's voice. Nice woody chop and sweet tone. I'm enjoying it and can't wait to take it to NashCamp in 2 weeks. 50 banjos and ONE mandolin! To most of you, that's probably your idea of what Hell is like! LOL!:disbelief: Should be fun!:mandosmiley:

[Big Joe]

I spent quite a bit of time with my old friend, Greg Rich, and we talked about this mandolin in depth. I also had one two to play and check out. I have been more than impressed with this mandolin for the price point. It will never replace my custom MM, but then again nothing much would. However, I could be very happy playing it any time. It is as good a mandolin for under 3K as I've seen yet.

[GTG]

I do know what brand has sold the best in side by side competition here. Which I find pretty interesting.

Well, you can't tease us like that! Care to elaborate?

[bdjbdj]

I got one a few days ago. The neck is big. Other than that it is awesome.
Has a real good shimmer to the tone and cuts. Pleased

[thrax0831]

Here's my experience with the Loar. I got the Loar set-up for $30 about the time the previous Loar thread was going on. It worked well until about one week ago when now it buzzes at the second fret of the G string. I'll need to get it looked at once again. I seem to be having trouble with this instrument.

[TomTyrrell]

Setups don't last forever, even on the most expensive instruments. Humidity changes alone can cause buzzes and such. Just do what Bill Monroe did and crank the bridge up a bit.

[thrax0831]

For the first time in over thirty years I tweeked a truss rod and it plays great again.

[mandocaster]

At his point, there are more posts about "The Loar" mandolins than there are "The Loar" mandolins:))

They must be good to have generated that much interest.

[Big Joe]

Just got one in today. It was presold, but this is an incredible mandolin. I wish there had been values like this when I began looking for a good F model many years ago. It is better than what I could find until I got my first Gilchrist (no...I'm not comparing it to one of Steve's mandolins). The wood is incredible, the finish flawless, and the tone is just what I hoped it would be. I still think this is one of the best values on the market today for the intermediate market.