Another newbie "first mandolin" question..

[NCSUMatt]

Another year, another brand new hobby with that lost feeling I never remember once I learn enough to feel educated...but for now...GRRRRR!

I've decided against getting a kit, so now I must pick between the endless sea of mandos out there. I have searched thoroughly online most of today, and have surmised:

I want a solid wood Gibson, A style with F holes (Everybody: cuz the scroll is expensive, and I can get more mando with my money in A). I want to keep it under a grand, and MAYBE trade it in on a more expensive model once I know what I'm doing in a year or two. And I "extra like" flaming maple and such.

So far, that lead me to this.
link (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=150171103354&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=005)

I have contacted the seller for some more detailed pics, [and he promised me he wouldn't sell to anyone here stealing my link, so hands OFF! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif ].

Why/not should I get this, other than the fact I usually never buy an instrument without playing it? I have already assumed I'm gonna get it set up by my local Martin-authorized luthier that I trust with my guitars, and am not counting that towards the grand...unless it needs a new top, neck, and back or some such.

I can't even remember the days when I went through this "new hobby frustration" with my guitar. I am so anxious to get the right mando and get to the learning the instrument instead of picking it.

[MikeEdgerton]

I don't think you have to worry about too many people out bidding you. You might want to look around and see what else is out there as well.

[f5loar]

From what I see in the photos this is all original for the year and looks to be a really nice flamed back in very good plus condition. Most were plain maple but a few were good flames like this one. '65 is an okay year but much after '66 the quality slipped somewhat. These are great pro/starter mandolins. Meaning great to learn how to play the mandolin as it will not discourage you because it plays just fine and it is fit for stage performance when you get to that point. There were many "pros" that used the A50s in their careers like Jesse McRenynolds, Ricky Skaggs(well he had the cheaper A40),Buzz Busby to name a few. And if you look closly at old photographs you'll find the Father of Bluegrass Big Mon sporting A50's at the Opry from time to time. He would borrow Oscar Sullivan's(of Lonzo&Oscar)old A50 when his Loar was on the frits. If you can snage this one for under $1000 including the shipping you've done good. Gruhns and other top end vintage dealers would want $1250 to $1400 for this one. Oh and if it has it's original hard shell case vs. the cheaper chipboard case consider that a $100 bonus!

[allenhopkins]

The current price on the A-50 is pretty decent, although I can recall a recent thread in which a consensus developed that $750 was a "going rate" for A-50's of fairly recent vintage. Nevertheless, Bernunzio is listing this 1950 A-50 (http://www.bernunzio.com/item.php?sku=058776)for $1,150, and the Lark Street Music website (http://larkstreetmusic.com/stock.html)lists a 1939 model for $1,000.

And you will almost certainly get your money out of it, should you decide to sell, trade or upgrade. Anything "Gibson" in mandolins draws interest, and the number available with prices less than four figures seems to be rapidly decreasing.

But, of course, "sight unseen" -- you won't really know much about the A-50 until you hold it in your hot little hands. Think through why you want a Gibson as opposed to another brand that might be available in a store where you could play it, or could be purchased with an approval period if it really don't float your boat.

There's a Gibson A-9 and a Weber Hyalite in the classifieds within shouting distance of $1K, and one or the other might meet your needs. Good luck and good hunting.

[MandoBen]

Everyone here knows what they are talking about and I have great respect for all your opinions, but I have to go with Mike on this. I would look around before I got one of those, besides I think there is a Gibson A9 in the classifieds right now.

[NCSUMatt]

I guess I'm curious about the A-50's cons? Why would a '03 A9 trump a 65 A-50? Is it the year or model?

MOst of the stuff I've found online deals with the older models, and doesn't really incorporate current Gibson for comparison. It seems just a mangle of rules and exceptions.

It seems one has to become a historian just to pick up their first mando. And that's just Gibson...

Edit: The guitarist in me is what is aiming for the older "classic" models. The 1950 and 1939 would also appeal, pending condition, flaminess, etc.

[f5loar]

The biggest differece between the A9(otherthan vintage status)and the older A50 is the neck length as it joins at the body. The longer neck has more of an "F" feel to it.
I'd think for a begineer it won't matter. The other big difference is the smell. Nothing like an old Gibson vintage smell. I usually will stick my nose at the F hole of my '23 F5 every morning while I sip on my favorite brew.
The one at Berno. is a nice one too but over the $1000 you hope not to pay for the ebay one. They would play the same but for me the little extra for a 50's vintage is worth it.
But then again I've got a 1950 just like it for $1000 I will be taking to sell at the big Atlantic City Antique show this weekend along with a truck load of other stuff included a rare 1960 EM200 Florentine Electric mandolin.

[bradeinhorn]

i'd keep looking as well. i have seen at least a few a-50s in recent months go for more like 600-750, including one locally at 550 that i had the chance to get, but did not due to the neck issue described above. this model does not have modern neck at all, more like a teens a-style. it is much chunkier and the extra couple frets you get on, say the a-9, make a HUGE difference, imo. You may very well find this isn't a big deal to you, but in this situation, i''d definately play before you pay.

and as to the ones listed for 1000+, trust me, they sit around until someone unsuspecting pays top dollar. don't think you'll be able to easily recoup your money with this model when you want to upgrade if you pay 800. these stores also have a much better chance of selling them for this much compared to a random guy on ebay, due to their established respect.

i'd hold out for the fairly regular sub1000 a-9 or you might consider something like an entry model flatiron a-5.

[bradeinhorn]

the seller's statement:

" But, if you win and decide you don't like playing mandolin at least you'll will have an investment that pay's better than almost any bond or stock. Thats all the pics I got sorry. Good luck"

...is not really true....

[MikeEdgerton]

Unfortunately what Gruhn and company can get for a mandolin doesn't always define the market price. Maybe on the high end where they are the main players but down in the trenches the price is better defined by how much they are selling for on that well known auction site. That doesn't mean I wouldn't pay a premium for an exceptional instrument from George Gruhn or Stan Jay, it just means that an instrument that is fairly common in less than spectacular shape is not going to rise to the prices that the major dealers charge.

[f5loar]

New/used A-9, new strings, new strap, new case can be had with a MasterCard. That vintage Gibson smell....Priceless!
I've been looking for A50s on ebay and haven't found one in the $600 range in years. $750 maybe but then this one is not much more than that. Dealer prices? They got to pay the power bill somehow and the peace of mind of getting to play it before you buy it or at least a 48 hour approval.
That's worth something too. That shorter neck didn't bother Buzz Busby one bit! He still got more notes out of the high range then I'll ever find on an F5.

[MikeEdgerton]

This one didn't get a bid the last time it was up at 800.00, there was an A-50E that got 780.00 and change and Mitch Simpson got a 1000.00 best offer on a '34 he had at 1800.00. One went off early (the seller ended his auction at 649.00) so the price if sold was unknown. I doubt that anyone will bid against the OP if he bids the 800.00, he'll most likely be all alone. Just because I wouldn't pay this much for one of these puppies doesn't mean you can't. This is America, you're free to do what you want http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[bradeinhorn]

New/used A-9, new strings, new strap, new case can be had with a MasterCard. That vintage Gibson smell....Priceless!
if you are really killing for the smell, just get an old gibson case to stick your new mandolin in....

[MikeEdgerton]

Or you could get Big Joe to tell you where Gibson bought the "Old Gibson Smell" perfume they were using on the DMM.

[mandolinlee]

I started on the Gibson A-40 and played it for years. I believe it's a great beginner instrument. Can't comment on price.
Lee

[NCSUMatt]

Hmmm...I think I will pass on the 800$ one. Not crazy about the "no more pics" bit.

How about this for 1g offer?
link (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&Item=170158871370&Category=10179&_trksid=p3907.m29)
What does one make of the tailpiece/tuner situation overall?

F5loar: "But then again I've got a 1950 just like it for $1000 I will be taking to sell at the big Atlantic City Antique show"
You mean yours has an Fhole crack as well, or just the same year/model? Gaining 15 years of age for slightly more sounds interesting, compared to the 800$

decisions decisions...

[MikeEdgerton]

I don't see any mention of a tuner problem in the auction. The clamshell tailpiece covers can be had even if you have to buy an old Kay or Harmony mandolin to get one. Gibson, Martin, Kay, Harmony and just about everyone else used that Waverly style tailpiece at some point in time up into the 60's. If you're sold on old give it a shot but at a grand you've opened up an entire new market and might want to look at the Flatiron A models as well as the Gibson A-9 models as well. There are some great mandolins out there in that range.

[bradeinhorn]

i don't think he'd go for 1000 offer. i don't think this model is the most collectable if you're looking for something like that. prices don't tend to differ too too much between the decades it was produced. there's a ton of them out there and i don't see it skyrocketing in value anytime soon. with the missing pieces on this one, i really don't see paying 1000 for it, considering what you can get alternatively.

are you heartset on the vintage gibson?

[f5loar]

I've got one of those '42 A50s and it's a great one. Usually nicer woods then the post war ones and nothing wrong with that prewar mojo. He takes offers so no harm in trying. Probably $1200 would take it. Only missing part is the Tailpiece. $800 on the '65 is a better deal. Not sure the '42 would be worth 50% more for what you are wanting.

[NCSUMatt]

I definitely want a Gibson to start out on. That's a name I've known for decades, I have/do own[ed] Gibsons, and they seem to have the name recognition on mandos as well.

I would prefer vintage, but if I can get a better new one than old, I'd be game. As with any instrument I play, I always end up with more than I need down the road. I'm just looking to get my foot in the door, and I can learn about the other makers and pros/cons down the road as I hone my skills.

With guitar, I started out with a no-name acoustic, then bought a MIM strat, an Epiphone LesPaul, then a high-end strat, a Takamine acoustic, then a figured Les Paul, a Martin....and so on...

I predict about the same for mando. But I'm kinda hesitant to start off on a brand I've never heard of until this weekend. Even high-end brands have their off-departments.

Martin is the best acoustic there is, but their virtually unknown electrics are total poo. Fender Strats rule electrics, but I'd never consider getting their acoustics. It seems Gibson has more consistency among their lines than any of the major makers, as they producs Les Pauls, SG's, reputable acoustics, and mandos as well.

[bradeinhorn]

long story short (and as searching here will enlighten you) - #while gibson has had some great years - the past decade, imo, being one of them, they also had some very inconsistent times. many would consider the 40s through the 80's to be such periods...i know i will face a lot of flack for that statement, and i have certainly played several good examples from the these decades, but the point of my statement is that you shouldn't speak in such definitives about a company that has had as many faces, heads, ceos, as most major corporations. being so new to it, i wouldn't simply discredit other options since you just heard of them (you've admittedly just started looking). there is a wealth of experience here for you to use.

additionally, go to a store with mandolins, see what feels comfortable to you. the a-50 neck is wider than most and certainly shorter than typical fhole instruments, so if that affects playability negatively for you, consider it.

it sounds to me like you need to play more and consider name less. there's a lot of good options out there in the used market for you.

[NCSUMatt]

Ugh, I put an offer in on an 1995 A-5L, more than I want to spend but it will probably be turned down anyway.

I think I do want the extra frets, I see now the A50 joins at the 12th, where others go down to 15.

The problem with playing mandos, this area doesn't have a wealth of stores like I am used to down south. While guitar selection is superb, the main store I frequent only deals with new stock and a rare trade-in for guitars, and only has a handful [of high-end] mandos. The other stores are pretty small, and selection of mandos is extremely limited...under 10 instruments or so.

There are no bluegrass friendly stores locally...mainly just stores carrying Fender/Gibson/PRS electrics catering to that rich teen crowd that live on distortion pedals.

If my offer doesn't get accepted, I will try to find the closest bluegrass-friendly store in NYC or Allentown or some such. I played all my guitars side by side against other models before buying [no-name starter acoustic aside], I can dedicate a weekend day to keep that streak going.

[cutbait2]

find yourself a good kentucky A model, the A-50 is not much. and the gibson name on the headstock won't do much for it. save the $ for something better, maybe even an A-9.

[Walter Newton]

Sounds like a trip to Mandolin Brothers (http://www.mandoweb.com/) would be in order...

[allenhopkins]

Or possibly <span style='color:blue'>Lark Street Music. (http://larkstreetmusic.com/stock.html)</span> Or both.

[MikeEdgerton]

Just for giggles you should know that Gibson bought Flatiron and built them for for several years. Some people would argue that the reason Gibson is making decent mandolins now is because they bought Flatiron (I'm one). I own a Gibson and a Flatiron (and a few more). The new Flatiron F being sold now is an import, It's not in the same league. In the Flatiron world there are three real genres. Pre-Gibson, Gibson made in Bozeman, and Gibson made in Nashville. Brad is correct, there are some years of Gibson production that are less than stellar. That doesn't mean they didn't make any good mandolins in those years, it just means they are not all super instruments.

[Paul Kotapish]

Some of those '60's-vintage A-50s are really great sounding, others are dogs. I had one that had all the bark and bite of a classic mid-20's F-5, and I regret letting it go. I have a friend with one that doesn't sound like much at all, though, so I wouldn't commit to purchasing one until you--and someone with even more experience--has had a chance to play it. If it's one of the great ones, you will probably recoup your investment before too long, even if you pay a bit over book for it. If it's not impressive under the ear or from across the room, forget the investment potential and look for something that really speaks to you. You can buy a lot of mandolin these days for $1,000.

Just one guy's opinion.
PK

[otterly2k]

It would be well worth your time to travel to Mandolin Brothers as suggested above and spend a nice long afternoon playing everything you can get your hands on... which is anything they have. They'll let you pull anything off the wall for a try. That will give you a MUCH better sense of the range of tones, feel, designs, etc.

I understand why the name Gibson would appeal. But I have to echo some of the other statements made that there are many mandolin options out there that are just as good in quality and sound... it's worth the time getting to know some of them, and then make your decision.

[NCSUMatt]

They rejected my offer on the A-5L, and countered $200 cheaper that BIN, so it looks like I'm gonna put this thing on hold until I can do it right with test drives.

If anyone in the Pocono area knows of any bluegrass hotspots I've missed, let me know. My only real playday is Saturday afternoons, and Lark St is closed on Sat, leaving MBros as the only option for now.

Thanks all, I'll report back accordingly.

[allenhopkins]

Can you get to Vintage Instruments in Philly? Here's (http://www.vintage-instruments.com/navigate/catidx7.htm) their mandolin listing -- lots of Gibsons, etc. No substitute for actually having the critter in your hands before you make a choice.

(By the way, notice the F-12 with more issues than the one you saw at auction, still going for $2.5K. Bet you wish you had it to do over...)

[MikeEdgerton]

OK all you A-50 fans, here's the deal you've been looking for. Refinished top and a few plugged holes but the price is right.
NFI.


Have at it (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220161128877&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.ebay.com%3A80%2Fsearch%2Fse arch.dll%3Ffrom%3DR40%26_trksid%3Dm37%26satitle%3D 220161128877%26fvi%3D1)

[allenhopkins]

Looks earlier than '50's to me, with the script "Gibson." Expertise, anyone?

[bradeinhorn]

that's the type of a-50 i'd buy. probably sounds as good or better than the others for almost half the price.

plus there's something really humorous about that treble fhole.

could be a 40's a50.

[MikeEdgerton]

The logo on the headstock says older than the 50's (I could be wrong). The enlarged f hole is a pain but you can buy a pickguard and cover most of it up.

[NCSUMatt]

By the way, notice the F-12 with more issues than the one you saw at auction, still going for $2.5K. Bet you wish you had it to do over...)
I actually saw that one before the auction...but again, that one is highly figured and gleaming. The one I saw was just a dullish brown, very no frills grade-wise. I'd rather pay 2.5 and get that beaut.

&lt;&lt;Update&gt;&gt;
Well I plugged in MandoBros to my GPS, and it's almost 2.5 hours one way. That's 5 hours rounder, plus playing time. With my soccer coaching/playing schedule, it's gonna be late April before I can physically be there. Philly is almost exactly 2 hours from here, so same deal basically.

Some times in life, you just gotta drop back and punt. I called MBros today, told them of my predicamnet. I'm basically gonna have to either wait til spring to play, or just put my faith in them to pick me out a model to use for the next 6 months. I pondered the 500$ Ovation (and yes, I know...laminate/plastic)...thing is, out of all my guitars, I don't haver ONE that I would take camping. ALL my instruments are "inside" ones. Ovations might not be the best or close, but it could easily be a beater that could be played in the rain, scuba diving, etc. Plus, I could run it through my amps and such. I can teach my son and not cringe when he bangs the headstock on the chair. A beach mando, as I saw written here.

Well, the MBro guy wasn't too keen on it, as we all aren't...and he suggested a "Muddy"? Something like that. He was supposed to send me an email listing all their intros in my range [waiting].

So I know no one will be keen on the ovation...I like it just for the ideas I ran by...but any info on this Muddy? Thing is, even if I get a 1000$ Full F style (which he said I could), I'm still gonna be hesitant to take it outside further than my deck. I might as well suck it up and get a beater to learn on, put the extra $500 towards the REAL mando I get in spring once I've had time to research and test drive, and keep the Ov as a standby electric amphibious beater that my son can play.

Thoughts?

[MikeEdgerton]

It's a Big Muddy mandolin. They are built by the former owner of Mid-Missouri mandolin. Their website is here (http://www.bigmuddymandolin.com/). If you're looking for something to learn on check out the Kentucky KM-505 (http://www.themandolinstore.com/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=7866) or for an even cheaper deal check out this Kentucky KM-350S (http://www.themandolinstore.com/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=8251). Personally I wouldn't buy an Ovation but that's me.

[f5loar]

Oh yeah Mandolin Bros. is a day trip if you live in NYC!
And better call ahead to make sure Stan is not cruising around in his vintage Cadillac finding some great pizza!
Most dealers do have that 48 hour approval on any instrument you buy. Don't like it you are out of the cost to ship it back. I've had to do that several times.

[NCSUMatt]

I just bought me a mandolin. It's a Kentucky KM 505, with HSC, a book, picks, strings, setup and tuned yada yada yada, free shipping, and handpicked by Paul/mandolinhut to be the best of the 6 he has left.

As soon as I decided to commit to that model, I found out these things are pretty hard to find in stock. Some said they didn't know when they'd get them, the best was a 2 month wait. I was getting a little stressed. FINALLY, I found Paul who said he bought every 505 they had after waiting forever on the 1000's, and he's now down to 6...well, hehe...5.

So the initial hunt is over. Thanks everyone for your help. This Friday, at UPS:00 PM, I shall embark on my mandolinic journey.

[allenhopkins]

Good luck -- let us know how it goes...