Monroe's mandolin back in court

[Scott Tichenor]

The story that seems to have no end. McLean scandal threat (http://dnj.midsouthnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070930/NEWS01/709300321/1002). It's not an April Fool's joke, but it reads like one.

A face-off in U.S. Bankruptcy Court over two of the most-prized string instruments in music history has legions of country fans on edge, while investors duped by a high-profile donor to the Country Music Hall of Fame and Museum hope to get some of their millions back.

Hanging in the balance are Mother Maybelle Carter's famed 1928 Gibson guitar that many say revolutionized country music and the mandolin of Bill Monroe — considered the father of bluegrass.

Same article from the Tennessean (http://tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070930/BUSINESS01/709300394), a bit easier on the eyes, and sad proof this isn't some ugly story someone made up.

[DryBones]

I am suprised that some of the wealthier big name country artists just don't get together and pony up the $1.5 million to make sure that nothing happens to these instruments. Do we have to start a fund raiser here for that too? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[Steven Stone]

Well, this could, can, will get messy.

Is it better for such instruments to sit in a case unplyed where the public can view them or sit in a case where a collector can view them AND play them?

IMHO opinion the important thing is that they are preserved. By who and how...Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn...

[Soupy1957]

Forgive my ignorance here, but I thought both of these instruments couldn't be touched, having been donated to the "Hall of Fame."
If I'm reading that article correctly in this Thread, it would appear that "Mclean" (sp?) should not be able to dig himself out of his hole by the sale of property of the museum. Or am I misunderstanding the details?


-Soupy1957

[cooper4205]

Forgive my ignorance here, but I thought both of these instruments would have been in the:

1) Country Music Hall of Fame
2) Bluegrass Hall Of Fame

.....and couldn't be touched, having been donated to one of these two (although I would suspect #2 as the first-and-foremost location for these), locations?http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif?

-Soupy1957
did you read the article http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[Soupy1957]

yes, that's why I modified (edited) my posting....ty

-Soupy1957

[cooper4205]

Forgive my ignorance here, but I thought both of these instruments couldn't be touched, having been donated to the "Hall of Fame."
If I'm reading that article correctly in this Thread, it would appear that "Mclean" (sp?) should not be able to dig himself out of his hole by the sale of property of the museum. Or am I misunderstanding the details?


-Soupy1957
I think (probably wrong) that since the money was obtained fraudulently that it negates the fact it was "donated" to the Hall of Fame, but that's just a guess. and McLean killed himself last week (never a good answer to a problem). One things for sure, this is gonna be messy http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[Soupy1957]

Another piece of the puzzle that I didn't know (that McLean had killed himself).
I would think that the folks who run the Hall of Fame would do anything they could to fix the mess, without resorting to the sale of valued artifacts, to satisfy debts or whatever. (Marty Stuart, are you listening?).
Too bad that folks like McLean weren't more accountible, much sooner.
-Soupy1957

[MikeEdgerton]

Another piece of the puzzle that I didn't know (that McLean had killed himself).
Soupy, that was in the article.

[Elliot Luber]

Hopefully whomever winds up with these instruments will recognize the risk associated with holding onto them and the tax breaks associated with donating them.

[MikeEdgerton]

There is real wealth within the country music world. That doesn't mean that everyone is wealthy, it means that there are people with the means to purchase one or both of these instruments and donate them. McLean obviously didn't fall into this category. Barring a sale to a foreign entity I'd say that someone or some group will step forward and purchase these instruments and that they will be on display somewhere, just maybe not in Nashville. Unfortunately I think Mother Maybelle's guitar might be an easier pill to swallow than Bill's mandolin. They both should be preserved (obviously) but Mr. Mclean's victims do need to be made whole. I'm sure there are people that have been greatly harmed by his actions.

[bradeinhorn]

As important as these two instruments are, i think they should be sold off. People were MAJORLY defrauded here, and if this helps to defray those reimbursement costs, it is just the right thing to do.

[Domhnall]

Plus, to keep such instruments behind glass is unfortunate, they'll close up and loose some of their sound. I think the instruments should be sold, to someone who will PLAY them.

[JEStanek]

These are two iconic instruments I don't know if they should be played until they are consumed from use, accident, or neglect. Where they reside (i.e., which institution), is less of a concern to me than that they are preserved and cared for properly.

Getting them to folks who are worthy for recording purposes gets trickier that way, and certainly very political, with who holds them and who decides to loan them out. The most important thing now, I feel, is to secure the instruments and repay the debts somehow.

What a mess. It's a shame.

Jamie

[evanreilly]

I am sure the phrase 'Clear Title' will soon appear; does the CMoH have Clear title; did McLean?
This process is guaranteed to make happy only the lawyers.

[bradeinhorn]

certainly this is a good one for lawyers....

interesting legal situation actually. typically it is the art itself which is stolen, not the money that went into purchasing it. in the classic case, the museum must prove clear title through provenance records or the art must be returned, good faith or no. here there is a bit of disconnect as the money that went to purchase the art was what was stolen, not the art itself, so provenance doesn't really come into play. museums have very high due diligence standards for donations. should the museum be responsible to look into the finances of the donator? the question may become whether there was reason to suspect mclean when the donations were made.

either way, the museum is certainly put into a very clear moral dilema. as others have stated, it would be nice to see wealthy members of the country music industry step up to insure these treasures remain for the public by purchasing them for market value, or if not that, at least what mclean paid (plus interest and legal fees), to insure that amount of money is returned to those who were swindled.

[The Old Sarge]

I recall a case, several years ago, where a church had to turn over money given as a donation by a member who obtained the money fraudulently. So it isn't unheard of for creditors to attack a third party to make recovery. At the very best it is going to be a sticky situation for all involved.

[Keith Erickson]

WOW!!! There never is a dull moment around here http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Well, it appears that this story was released today which is Sunday...

...and this gives the drive by media something to chomp on for a while.

Who knows what's happening behind the scenes at this very moment? However come Monday morning, I would only naturally assume that the courts will open for business as usual, while the lawyers involved are going to be filing motions to resolve these issues at a future date.

"If" the story is true and McLean has defrauded his investers of their money, the only winners in this case are the lawyers that will be arguing this in front of a judge. They will be paid regardless of the outcome.

...and the legacy of the Monroe Loar starts yet another new chapter that none of us would have ever imagined.

[Links]

The bankruptcy and trustee have a lot of power in these cases. We have just gone through something like this in my hometown, where a financial institution defrauded hundreds of "investors". The trustee (whom was paid a bunch of money) went though all kinds of "contortions" to get the investors money back, even trying to recover money from investors themseleves that had withdrawn their moeny when things started looking bad for the company. I will be real surprised if the CMHOF is able to keep those instruments without some financial help from someone. Certainly the folks that were defrauded deserve first consideration!

[Steve Cantrell]

Links, if you're talking about Carolina Investors, I agree with you. That's exactly who this guy made me think of. My grandmother lost my grandfather's life savings and is now penniless. If getting those people their money back means selling the mandolin, then sell it.

[allenhopkins]

Problem is that the instruments were acquired with the proceeds of an illegal action. Not too dissimilar to the assests of drug traffickers which are seized under Federal forfeiture. The current law allows governments to move against legitimate assets (cars, houses, businesses) that have been purchased with funds obtained through illegal actions (drug deals, frauds, etc.). Seems like Mr. McLean made his money fraudulently, so assets he purchased with these funds could be subject to lien either by the government, or by the trustee in bankruptcy. Complicating factor is that the Hall of Fame was an innocent third party; McLean didn't buy the instruments, he gave the money to the Hall of Fame, and they bought 'em. So quite probably he never owned them.

Should make an interesting case, and make some money for bankruptcy lawyers in Nashville. What has been stated above, that I really disagree with, is that the instruments should be taken out of public display, and sold to someone "who will play them." These are artifacts of two of the most influential musicians in country music, and I would say they should be preserved as such. Does someone think that Babe Ruth's bat should be taken out of Cooperstown and sold to someone who'll use it to play for the Batavia Muckdogs of the New York-Penn League? Or that the Spirit of St. Louis should be removed from the Smithsonian and awarded to a weekend pilot flying out of Teeterboro airport? Let's put the L-5 and F-5 back in their cases, so you and I and everybody can at least see them, and think about all the talent and innovation that poured through those strings and across those fretboards.

[mythicfish]

"These are artifacts of two of the most influential musicians in country music, and I would say they should be preserved as such."

Don't start with me ... you know how I get! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Curt

[dirty harry]

Hey.....
Used, enjoyed, broken and sold. It is like having your dead Uncle's shoes. Let it go people.............
James sold it, what is its value now!
Harry http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/blues.gif

[TonyP]

I'm no lawyer, but it would be interesting to see what is behind all this. Recent history is littered with white collar swindles that the little guy never got a dime back on. All I can think is it's a combo of powerful investors and weak defendants, in the case of the museum. I personally don't know where the line is with anything to do with "investing" as most of it seems either criminal or immoral to my way of thinking. McLean put the $$$ into instruments instead of junk mortgages or a million other "legal" ways of getting one over on some poor schmuck. It just seems so ironic to me, an investor donating $$ to save instruments. Maybe he was trying to make amends for his evil ways? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
inquiring minds would really like to know.....

[re simmers]

Remember the Keating 5 from about 20 years ago? I think Frank Keating had millions of dollars worth of antiques that he purchased with stolen money. I think the government sold the stuff at auction, which was just a small portion of what he stole from people. Are there any similarities?

I guess non-profits will have to hire a lawyer just to accept donations in the future.

I would still like to know who has that fireplace poker. And what about the knife Bill used to gouge out the Gibson name? They should be in the Hall, too.

[Links]

Steven - Carolina Investors is exactly who I am talking about. A lot of fine people, like your grandmother, lost much or all of their hard earned money and those folks should be the first ones considered.

Allen - you are absolutely right. Those instruments are not needed for someone to play. I would hope that they would stay somewhere where they could be displayed, but not at the expense of those who were duped out of their money.

PS: I think the Carolina Investors victims would up getting something like 18 cents on the dollar.

[Big Joe]

Just because they are in the Hall of Fame, don't assume they will be well cared for so they will be useable in future generations. While they do have some minor care, the museums are not very good at taking care of the instruments. This is true of the Hall of Fame. It is not cheap keeping those instruments in good shape, and they are not looked over often to look for maintenance needed.

Part of the insteresting question here with these instruments is who actually bought them. If the buyer purchased them and then donated them, there may be action against the seller for the return of funds since they were improperly purchased. Keep in mind that there has been no adjudication indicating any of these funds were not legal for the purchase. First there has to be a determination that the funds were improperly used for these purposes, then there has to be a determination as to who has to return the funds. Can it revoke the sale from the original purchaser (now deceased) and take the instruments which are in the HOF. Can the instruments stay where they are and the seller have to repay the estate? If the instruments are returned to the estate, will the court require the seller to purchase them back at the same price they were paid for them since it may be determined these were not legitimate sales? Lots of tough questions. However, before we blame anyone it is important to let this play out so we know the truth and not just what we read in the papers. It is a sensational story so it is prone to have some overeporting on the more dramatic issues of this case. Just my thoughts and questions.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Reading Big Joe's post here & noting that what he says re.the Hall of Fame maybe not taking proper care of the 2 instruments in question - how about the Gibson company stumping up the cash for the most important instrument that they have ever made ?.
# Truthfully,what could be a more fitting place for Mr.Monroe's Mandolin than in the care of the company that made it. I bet they'd take care of it. As for Maybelle's Guitar, maybe Gibson could go for that as well. At least these instruments would have the best of care & an honoured place within the musical instrument industry,
# # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # Saska

[MikeEdgerton]

It just seems so ironic to me, an investor donating $$ to save instruments. Maybe he was trying to make amends for his evil ways?
My guess is that McLean was looking for his 15 minutes. This was a chance to mingle with a group of people he probably hadn't been able to hang with previously. Unless the guy was seriously demented he had to know it was all going to crash down around him sooner or later.

[Links]

I agree with Mike!

Big Joe #- #as you probably already know, things like this tend to stir up emotions of all sorts and many folks think that their emotions should be how the law (or court system) should work. #Even logic may even have to take a back seat here. #As I said earlier, The bankruptcy court has a lot of power and does the trustee, so whatever happens, wherether it seems logical or not, will be strictly according to the law and to the power given to the trustee.

For example, in the Carolina Investors case, people who withdrew their own money from the institution within a certain time frame before their collapse we contacted and told that they would have to return the money (to be divided up among all of the other investors (or added to the "pot)). #Exceptions were made for those who withdrew the money for medical reasons or other "legitimate" reasons. #I think the trustee had the power to determine what was a "legitimate" reason.

My guess is that regardless of what the mechanics were for the purchase of the mandolin, if money used for the purchase of the mandolin came directly or indirectly from the donor in question, then there is a big problem. #It is the trustee's duty to maximize and assets that can be converted to cash to be returned to the investors, so if he believes that the instrument is worth twice what was paid for it, my guess is that he had rather have the instrument than the cash. #I would also speculate that the decision as to whether he takes the instrument or cash is up to him and not the HOF. #Again, if I am an investor that lost a chunk of money, I'm for doing what will bring the most cash. #

We should also remember that it is very likely that many of this swindler's victims (if as Joe mentioned that this is indeed the case) are not all wealthy investors, but quite possibly people who trusted him with much of their hard earned life savings.

[woodwizard]

I agree with Saska. The Gibson Bluegrass Showcase would really be a SHOWCASE with those two instruments. Gibson should consider this. Great Idea!!! IMHO

[swampstomper]

A total of $1.5 million invested in those two instruments = $1 500 000 = 150 $10K mandolins or even 60 DMM's. I'd rather see Gibson concentrate on making excellent instruments now!

[Keith Erickson]

Let's just wait for the judges and juries to decide what should be done.

It will be interesting to watch...

[Big Joe]

I certainly cannot speak for Gibson or its ownership, but I don't see Gibson stepping in and purchasing these instruments for any reason. Anything is possible, but I certainly would not hold my breath. They are interested in production of new instruments, and while some of the people involved have interesting collections, it is not what the company does.

I just feel the HOF will retain them somehow. I could easily be wrong, but it would not be the first time I was http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif . There are lots of questions to answer in this case, where the money came from and whether it was properly used for the purchases is only one of them. This reminds me of the line in the movie Forest Gump. "Momma always said life is like a box of chocolates...." http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif .

[woodwizard]

You guys are probably right about Gibson not purchasing these instruments. But it did sound good for a thought. Gibson sells more than just mandolins so the profit from Gibson to purchase these would come from a lot more than just mandolin sells (that is if they did consider it).
Guess we'll just have to wait and see what they pull out of that box of chocolates.

[futrconslr]

Do you really want the two most important instruments in country music on display at a shopping mall? Really??

Apparently he was taking current investors money to pay for past losses in a type of pyramid scheme. I suspect the trustee will argue that any money he sent out the door was money obtained through fraud as this had been going on for the last 5 years or so. The CMHOF's attys and the trustee are trying to work out some kind of agreement. Thats going to be interesting I am sure. The whole affair is terrible and really puts all the parties in really difficult positions.

[TonyP]

"Do you really want the two most important instruments in country music on display at a shopping mall? Really??"

Bottom line, I agree with Joe, why would Gibson care about those instruments? I know they are a big deal to us, but to the general public? Maybelle who? Bill who? In a shopping mall or wherever, maybe in Nashville, but anyplace else nobody would care about a big funny lookin' guitar, and a scruffy lookin' uke/banjo/what the heck is it?

[f5loar]

This looks like a chance for the first investors at the Rosine, KY deal to pony up and get a 2nd chance to buy what they wanted to buy in the first place when the original deal was cut. Let's put it back to Bill's hometown. Gibson? I was there a few weeks ago and they were selling a new DMM for $18K or about 30% off list price. Gibson's got their own problems without getting in this mess.

[Rroyd]

Interesting concept in the Carolina Investors' situation--give us back your money you withdrew before the collapse so we can put it in the kitty to divide it up for everyone. #(to be read, put it back so we can make more money for ourselves for handling the legal and financial details.) #If the investors got back 18 cents on the dollar, it would be interesting to know how many cents on the invested dollar went to pay the "administrative costs." #Far too often, their share ends up being far more than what is returned to those with claims. #In this situation, maybe they should be discouraged by having a court ordered "market value" appraisal. #(One old mandolin, refinished, major repairs, new hardware, one of several mandolins previously owned by deceased Grand Ol Opry performer. #$85,000 value, based on asking prices for similar instruments in similar condition being offered for sale at the present time.)

[Links]

" (to be read, put it back so we can make more money for ourselves for handling the legal and financial details.)"

Rroyd - you got that right! I think the trustee in this case (Carolina Investors) did get a percentage of the final "take", so every cent he got back a bunch of it was his. If my memory serves me correctly, he did not get as much (percentage-wise) as these high profile cases (like WorldCom), but believe me he got plenty. I also think maybe the investors sued over the amount he was getting - but to no avail!

PS: I just got my next to last check from WorldCom representing 1% of my "eligible" loss. That brings my total so far to 5% of my "eligible" loss. My final 1% will be sent later. Wow! 7% of my eligible loss - and of course the eligible part is not the whole loss!

[thistle3585]

As I understood the article, the trustee would request the money that was donated to the HOF to purchase the mandolin and may include other contributions that were made to the HOF by McLean in addition to the L-5 guitar and two Johnny Cash guitars which were purchased and donated to the HOF. I believe the total sum they are looking at recovering from HOF is about $1.5 million. The question is, whether HOF or a benefactor of HOF put up the $1.5 million, would the trustee accept that as payment and go away. The trustee may think the instruments are worth more than 1.5 million and would look to take them to auction in hopes of recovering more. I would bet, based on other types of settlements, that they would settle for less than the $1.5 million but it might take dragging it out over time to get a lower settlement.

[Bob_Blackman]

I wonder if the Smithsonian would be interested. They have a substantial collection of musical instruments already, including rare and valuable violins, and surely know as much as any institution about preserving and presenting such things. They also have a huge variety of significant cultural artifacts relating to various famous people (Julia Child's kitchen, the ruby slippers from "The Wizard of Oz" movie, etc.). And I believe that they occasionally invite great musicians to play a concert at the Smithsonian, using some of the instruments.

[MikeEdgerton]

I wonder if the Smithsonian would be interested

I'm going to guess that if the instruments were offered to them that they would take them. I seriously doubt that they would stand up and pay the price they will be auctioned for, assuming that happens.

[Links]

As you know museums don't normally have bundles of cash laying around. #Many have certain donors that they go to when they find something they want. #They also llok for people to donate items.

I think Mike has this one right!

[re simmers]

I hope, but doubt, that Bill's mandolin ends up with someone who will play it. Any expert opinions on whether or not it will have much sound right now? It's been 11 years, right? What kind of shape is it in? Anyone know? Maybe somebody with lots of cash could purchase it to loan out to the big league. Maybe Bush, Grisman, Doyle, Bibey, Marty Stuart, Thile, Steffey could all play it for another tribute project. I hope we have not heard the last of Bill's mando.

[MikeEdgerton]

Nobody questions any other Loar that comes out from under a bed after 80 years. I doubt that the 11 years have had a whole lot of effect and I remember Ricky Skaggs playing this mandolin a few years ago when it was put in the CMHoF. It sounded good then.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Truthfully,would Gibson's reputation as a maker of Mandolins be the same if it weren't for Bill Monroe's instrument - NO WAY !!!. That Mandolin put Gibson firmly at the top of the tree in quick time & if i was the chairman of the Gibson company i'd want it
where it belongs,in a place of honour for both Bill Monroe & Gibson,
Saska

[allenhopkins]

Why would Gibson care about those instruments? I know they are a big deal to us, but to the general public? Maybelle who? Bill who? In a shopping mall or wherever, maybe in Nashville, but anyplace else nobody would care about a big funny lookin' guitar, and a scruffy lookin' uke/banjo/what the heck is it?
I understand C.F. Martin Co. has a display of significant Martin instruments. (Haven't been to Nazareth in a long time, so relying on hearsay.)

The "general public" won't be touring the Gibson facilities; the clientele will be people with an interest in their instruments. I think they'd like to see the Carter L-5 and the Monroe F-5, as well as guitars played by jazz and rock luminaries. Probably would be glad to see Earl's Granada as well.

[MikeEdgerton]

Martin has their museum. It consists of some notable instruments (the uke that went to the North Pole with Admiral Byrd if I recall, I don't think it was Adm. Perry), several instruments that never left the factory, and a slew of normal but perchance rare instruments. If I recall there is Ricky Nelson's Martin, maybe an Elvis. The point is, there isn't an instrument anywhere near the importance of the Carter guitar or Monroe mandolin that I ever saw there, and I photographed every instrument in the museum. Even Jimmie Rodger's Martin is in Nashville. Martin has been family owned since it's inception, Gibson never was. You can't expect both companies to have anything in common really. Gibson has moved around the country, Martin has moved across town but kept the old building. Martin has most if not all of their records, Gibson does not. There are people that will argue (and possibly rightly so) that the two instruments in question don't generate any significant portion of Gibson's bottom line. One picture of an artist like Eric Clapton playing a Gibson electric guitar is going to sell more instruments and bring in more money than Bill's Mandolin ever will. It means something to the mandolin community, don't expect it to mean the same to a corporate executive. A few years ago Gibson sponsored an art display all over downtown Nashville. They gave large Fiberglass guitars to artists and had them paint them up real nice in whatever theme they chose. Gibson used Fiberglass Les Paul's. They didn't use Fiberglass F5's for a reason.

[deb-in-va]

Gibson above all should be interested in the preservation of their most prestigious instrument. I know they don't have to, but I think it would make a grand statement from the company to be involved in it's rightful place as a museum piece. Perhaps a contribution in Charlie Derrington's name would be appropriate since he was the one who once lovingly brought it back to life.

D Conner

[Jkf_Alone]

maybe guitar center will buy them and send them around to store grand openings. maybe they will end up in an attic for 80 years, and inspire a chris thile-bot in 2525 to create a cyborg/hillbilly music.

[shawverscrossing]

How in the world does it cost the museum 13 mil per year to operate?

[jim simpson]

I say we commision Gary Vessel/Testore Instruments to make a replica (as he has already) of the restored version and place it in the museum if the Gibson has to go. The detail that Gary accomplished was astonishing.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Less we forget - it's not just the value of Bill Monroe's Mandolin in question here,it's the whole significance of what that instrument means to world music.
I've aired my views on what i think of Bill Monroe's contribution in other posts on here,but what the man did for world music with that specific instrument,is one of the greatest achievements in music this century.
To me it's unthinkable that the company that made it could NOT be interested in having it in their museum OR,purchasing it & putting it on display in maybe the US Library of Congress museum or the Smithsonian Institute,which already has many instruments in it's collection.
Other than the violin played by Paganini who revolutionised violin playing & extended it's repertoir more than any previous (or subsequent) violinist,i can think of a no more significant instrument in the world. It represents a whole NEW form of music,developed by one man & listened to across the world. It also represents the constructional goals of nearly all our present day Mandolin makers who wouldn't be making Mandolins if it weren't for that instrument & the man behind it,
Saska

[MikeEdgerton]

it's not just the value of Bill Monroe's Mandolin in question here,it's the whole significance of what that instrument means to world music

In the whole scale of world music it means very little, it means something to the mandolin community because we view it as an icon. We're a tiny portion of the world really.


To me it's unthinkable that the company that made it could NOT be interested in having it in their museum

Corporate executives generally look at things in dollars and cents without any emotional attachment. Once they get emotional money starts to fall off the table. Gibson contrary to what has been printed here appears to be a fairly well run organization these days.


Other than the violin played by Paganini who revolutionised violin playing & extended it's repertoir more than any previous (or subsequent) violinist,i can think of a no more significant instrument in the world.

I'm sure if you played the basoon you might think differently. Maybe if you played banjo you'd feel that way about Earl's banjo.


It represents a whole NEW form of music,developed by one man & listened to across the world.

Bill was the father of bluegrass, there were others that helped along the way don't you think? Monroe wasn't like Thomas Edison. He didn't just sit down one day and draw out a new type of music. It evolved as he got others into his band and other bands developed. He planted a seed and it grew.


It also represents the constructional goals of nearly all our present day Mandolin makers who wouldn't be making Mandolins if it weren't for that instrument & the man behind it

Then perhaps it is the current mandolin builders that need to preserve it.... and in fact they do every time they build a Loar copy. Monroe popularized the Gibson F model. He didn't develop it, he showed it had potential. Standing on it's own merit you can't help but wonder if Loar era mandolins would be sought after like they are today without him. I'm going to guess that in the mandolin community they might have been. The mandolin community might be much smaller than it is today and believe me, the mandolin community today is tiny in the grand scope of things.

With reference to the Carter guitar and the Monroe mandolin, I certainly hope they remain in the CMHoF. They should be there. It certainly isn't up to any individual or corporation to step up to the plate. There will be those that have deep enough pockets and a desire to own or preserve these instruments that will step up. Let's hope they leave them on display.

[Big Joe]

Gibson cannot put it in a museum since it does not have a museum. They don't buy used instruments, they sell new ones. There is no reason for them to buy it. Besides, it belongs to the Hall of Fame and no one, I mean NO ONE has proven otherwise and will likely never be able to.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Thanks for disembling my post bit by bit Mike - at least you read it !.
To Take each point one by one :-
A) Re.'World music' - Across the world,there must be hundreds of thousands of people,if not millions,who enjoy Bluegrass music & it's associated forms. Possibly far more than people who listen to Operatic music.(IMO).I love Opera,but personally, i know of hundreds more people that love & listen to Bluegrass music.

B)'Emotional attachment'- I think that emotion is what drives people to
try to achieve the highest standard that they can in anything they do - if ''pride in achievement'' is what we're talking about here,we sure feel lousy if we fail - that's an emotion !. Surely the Gibson company is 'Proud' of having produced such an iconic instrument as Bill Monroe's Mandolin ?. They loose no oportunity to spout off about how 'proud' they are of their present crop of instruments,which if not for that specific instrument,they might not be making. Gibson have sold a lot of Mandolins because of Bill Monroe.

C)I'd bet a few pounds/dollars that there were more Banjo players than Mandolin players around at the time that Bill Monroe started to play Mandolin. Even his brothers didn't want to play it,it was the only instrument left over for Bill to play.

D) Yes,Bill Monroe planted the seed - no one else did !. Also,he made sure the seed grew in the direction that he wanted it to. He DID have a constant idea in his head about how he wanted his music to sound,that was the driving force behind the man. Eventually,everything came together to form the music & band structure that we know. The music did evolve,as all things do.

E) I think that today's Mandolin makers are carrying Mandolin construction forward in a way that it's possibly never been done before. To look at the array of instruments available is wonderful - & all on the back of Bill Monroe's music !.
You can't escape the fact that if it weren't for Bill Monroe,the Mandolin wouldn't be as popular as it is today . OK ! - it's mainly played within a specific musical genre,so what - it's played & that's all that matters to us.
Big Joe,i understand you point re.the 'Hall of Fame'& i agree totally. Someone else raised the point re.the instrument NOT being taken good care of. Who better to ensure the care of such an instrument as this,than the company that made it ?. As for not buying used instruments,i would have hoped that in this instance,maybe an exception could be made.
The bottom line to my thoughts is that wherever it ends up,it's looked after in such a way as to be there for future generations to see,
Saska

[MikeEdgerton]

No sense in taking it apart again, but Item A.... if only it were so. I'm going to hazard a guess that world wide you have more Opera fans. We kind of have to look beyond our own circle. I recall a presidential election a few years ago. I didn't know anyone that voted for the candidate that won and I was shocked when he was elected. Same thing here. There are way too many Opera houses all over the world that are packed for every performance. Maybe there are more bluegrass fans in the US and that's a maybe.

[twist_of_nate]

I don't know if this is old information, but this was in the Owensboro paper today.

Title: Foundation hopes to purchase Monroe mandolin
Date: 10/11/2007
Source: Messenger-Inquirer (Owensboro)
Writer: David Blackburn
Lead:

Ohio County bluegrass supporters hope to position themselves to try again to buy the famed Gibson mandolin used by Rosine native Bill Monroe if it comes up for sale.



Article:

Ohio County bluegrass supporters hope to position themselves to try again to buy the famed Gibson mandolin used by Rosine native Bill Monroe if it comes up for sale.

"We're working on it," said Campbell Mercer, executive director of the Jerusalem Ridge Bluegrass Music Foundation of Kentucky, on Wednesday.

"The foundation would do anything to get (it) where we feel it belongs," said Kenny Autry, foundation chairman.

Their optimism comes amid news that the 1923 instrument Monroe used to create the music form might be part of a bankruptcy auction.

A deal by Mercer and others to buy it for $1.125 million as the centerpiece of a Monroe museum ended nearly five years ago when a bank loan fell through at the last minute.

Monroe's son, James Monroe, later successfully sued the foundation to retain possession of the mandolin.

Bob McLean of Nashville, a music lover and guitarist, bought it in late 2005 and later donated it and other valuable musical instruments to the Country Music Hall of Fame and Museum.

But McLean, who apparently killed himself Sept. 25, was the subject of a fraud investigation.

His donations could be considered fraudulent under bankruptcy law and sold to pay creditors, The Associated Press reported this week.

In case that happens, Mercer said he has talked to a handful people at the local, area and state levels to discuss lining up funding for another bid at the mandolin.

Talks are preliminary since state officials are awaiting the results of the Nov. 6 gubernatorial election and local supporters have been busy with the recent bluegrass festival near Rosine, he said.

"The timing isn't good right now to be asking for money," Autry said.
Mercer said he plans to talk to state legislators and the Ohio Fiscal Court about lining up funds if an auction happens.

The county probably wouldn't provide money, given its lack of water and paved roads in some areas, Judge-Executive David Jones said.

If a grant is a possibility, "we might get somebody to look at it," Jones said.
"We don't even have a museum," he said. "If there's going to be a structure, we need to have (it) before we start buying memorabilia."

It is "very possible" the past effort to get the mandolin, and the hurt feelings, personality conflicts and pointed fingers that resulted, could affect the current attempt, Jones said.

Mercer, who plans to talk to bankruptcy trustees about the case, thinks funding is needed to get the mandolin.

"If we can secure it, we can justify having the building," Mercer said. "It's the $1 million key to a $20 million project," Mercer said. "We think it's in the second-best place in the world it could be."

[Jonathan Peck]

Sounds like a real stretch considering they don't have the financing secured to bid on the mandolin if it does go up for auction...the financing could also be difficult to raise since they don't have the financing secured to build the museum....and even if they did, it's not built and doesn't appear to be a big priority.

I would like to be at that town hall when they start explaining - 'we don't needs roads, what we needs is a manalin' and a wall to hang it on'

[f5loar]

Ahh yes, the road to Rosine is a winding one. You won't get much traffic off Interstate XX to go see that mandolin behind glass for a $5 door charge. I liked the plan to buy shares in the mandolin at $25 per share. The more shares you buy the more you get to pick on it once a year. Regardless of how sincere Mercer's heart is to have the mandolin brought to rest at it's Master's hometown, his wallet says otherwise. It's the old "been there,done that and got the T-shirt but not the mandolin".
Money talks in situations like this. Without cash in hand to show for an auction there is always someone with more money than you.