That last upstroke

[vkioulaphides]

[Once again, mando-ignoramus on his path towards, ehm... less mando-ignorance http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif ]

Working my way through Bickford; in the chapter on Starting and Stopping the Tremolo, the venerable Mr. B. writes that this "is usually best done by ending the tremolo with the up stroke on the last beat before the single note or the new tremolo."

Really?!? I have always ended the previous note, i.e. the one with the tremolo, on a downstroke, sustained with the left hand, then started (downstroke again) with the next note, be it single stroke or tremolo.

Now, far be it from me to disagree with such authority but, ehm... is that the usual thing to do, as Mr. B. assumes? Somehow, that last upstroke, hanging there in outer space, seems to me like an oddity. Duh... what do I know?

[Bob A]

Therein lie the joys of autodidacticism. Those of us who have made a virtual lifestyle of being self-taught can more or less muddle through, happy in our blissful ignorance of the way it ought to be done.

I suspect that Bickford would have us prepared to charge forth and trem again, while perhaps a minute pasue would provide a separation between the notes. He assumes a level of control that my nervous system is probably not able to provide, while preparing the unwary for a higher-still level of play.

Ah, but play's the thing, is not? I play for the joy of playfulness, while attempting to broaden my skill base; but I'm not willing to suffer for my art. So I'll never be great, but at least I'll be happy. Until it is pointed out to me that I'm doing it wrong, again.

But what do I know?

[Alex Timmerman]

Hello Victor,

When, where and how to end a Tremolo section is a very good (and important) question and not always easy to answer. Especially if it is not well indicated in the music.

And although I am not quite sure whether this will answer your question ("on the last beat before the single note or the new tremolo."), I nevertheless add three possibilities.


It is good that one studies this always in the same way(s), since that gives real freedom (certainty and confidence) in performance.


Best,

Alex

[vkioulaphides]

What wonderful examples! Thank you, Alex!

The "graphic" notation Bickford provides resembles Alex' Example 2, BUT ending with an down + up stroke on the staccato quarter-note. THAT is precisely the point at which I doubted Bickford's suggestion. Otherwise, I see logical, musical applications to all three possibilities that Alex presents.

Naturally, the overall tempo and expressive character of the piece will also play a major role in the final decision: Example 1 is a sostenuto half-note; Example 2 calls for a separation between the one note of the example and whatever other note(s) can hypothetically follow it; Example 3 is a sostenuto dotted-half note... all valid musical possibilities— please pardon me if I am "translating" directly from my everyday life with a bowed string instrument.

In the meanwhile, I am becoming very suspicious of something else. Ehm... Alex... if you ever decide to publish some sort of annotated, didactic text for the mandolin... yoo-hoo... please sign me up as your first subscriber! #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Many thanks again. Off to practice some more! (downstrokes, upstrokes, cardiac strokes and all) #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[billkilpatrick]

my father worked briefly for sikorsky aircraft company (this does relate to the thread, by the way...) and part of his job was looking after igor sikorsky whenever he had to attend a seminar or make a presentation relating to helicopters. he used to start his speech by talking about the "bumb-lee bee" (i'll spare you the russian accent but he called a bumble bee a "bumb-lee bee") and how it had been proven scientifically that the bumb-lee bee can not fly - aerodynamically, wing-span for weight ratio, etc., etc., the bumblebee is not able to get itself off the ground. "fortunately," he continued "the bumb-lee bee is unaware of this and flys anyway."

...or, in the words of the great (i hope not late) sly stone: "different strokes for different folks..."

salute - bill

[Alex Timmerman]

Hello,


Of course one can have fun with the mandolin just by ´plucking and picking around´ as one feels best.


But if we like the Mandolin being treated as a serious instrument (especially by non mandolinists) in the musician field, I think it is vital that the instruments technique is better understood.
Not only because these kind of guestions are important when music (other than original written for Mandolin) is executed on the Mandolin, but more so because the right answers are essential for developing a fine and well balanced technique on the instrument.

Often the way to execute a certain technique is only marginal described in a tutor/method and left to the ´teacher´ to explain...


So yes Victor, I see your point; somekind of an accepted explanation of the essence of the Mandolin technique would be very helpfull in the Mandolin pedagogy.
Even if one wants to work with one of the great old methods, this could go together with it as an additional didactic booklet.


Who knows, somewhere in the future...


Best,

Alex

[John Bertotti]

Searching for instructors has been a waste of time. All I learned was no one knows anyone around here that teaches mandolin. I have to emphatically agree with vkioulaphides that a book like that would be amazing. I have been fortunate enough to know a guitar teacher (nephew) and a piano teacher who can at least describe some technique to me. Alex press on with a book. You've already sold several in just this thread. John http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[vkioulaphides]

[QUOTE]"Often the way to execute a certain technique is only marginally described in a tutor/method and left to the ´teacher´ to explain..."

And that, my friends, is the crux of the issue: The abject absence of qualified teachers makes "filling in" the implicit blanks between the matter-of-fact information contained even in the finest methods and the final product of artistic performance on the mandolin very, very difficult indeed— or rather, reduced to the "my guess is as good as yours" lowest common denominator.

I, for one, would welcome enthusiastically a manual of sorts, a compendium, a "How-To" book for the mandolin; not some scholarly tome with an enormous bibliography and thousands of footnotes in the best academic tradition— my interests are far too humble for that sort of thing. What I mean is an up-to-date text, not too long, not too short, with a succinct explanation of how the buggy, little chordophone is to be played, from A to Z. (Again, my idea of "Z" is hardly transcendental; what I think we need is a degree of thorough presentation, not anything going on to the stratosphere of virtuosity or the so-called "extended techniques" of the 20th century.)

And *hint, hint* I cannot imagine anyone more eminently qualified to put together this very important work that our own Mr. T. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Tony R.]

You speak for a great many of us out here, Victor.
If only...........

[Alex Timmerman]

Hello all here,


It would help a lot if we can make a list with questions.

Such as for instance the above ones and now the one in Victor´s "Bleeding", Non-hematological Topic.
Feel free to mail them to this Topic or to my messenger box here at the Mandolin cafe.


Best,

Alex

[Jim Garber]

I like it... Ask Mr. T... great name for a mandolin advice #column

For those of the Euro persuasion, Mr. T was a hulking TV action star from days gone by. A show called the A Team (I think).

Jim

[Jim Garber]

Okay, here is another one. In Piccola Gavotta by Calace, op73. there is a run with 17-uplet. How do you count it? See example.

Jim

[Eugene]

Very freely.

[Alex Timmerman]

Hahahaha,

Perhaps not a question I had in mind, but nevertheless here is my advice in short on it:

It´s only twice as fast as the bar before. So don´t count it so much: play the bar before (the eight 16th notes) in time, be aware of the tempo you have, than start the affrettato run by doubling the speed of the last four 16th notes, slow down in the second part of the run to molto lento, play one extra note (the 17th) and finish it with the arpeggio G-major chord in the next bar.


Best,

Alex

[billkilpatrick]

dear alex -

i hope you're photo or DVD-o-genic and your fingernails are presentable because judging from what little i've been able to glean from the above, a book or booklet won't be enough.

thicky-ily yours - bill

[Jim Garber]

Thank you Alex for your fine elucidation. Now to practice my uplets.

Jim

[vkioulaphides]

Ha, ha, ha... Very good, Jim! Still, I cannot quite imagine our own Mr. T. with enormous, gilded brass hoops hanging from both his ears— nor the Mohawk hair-do. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Living in the pit of an Italian opera company as I do, I can assure you that affrettato automatically indemnifies the performer from any rhythmic infraction. In fact, as per the conductors we usually work with (Coppola, Ricchiuti, Rinaldi, Mazzagatti, Casarin-Rizzolo, et al), we have refined that effect into far more sub-classifications than you can imagine.

Think of: affrettato maniaco, affrettato precipitoso, affrettato catastrofico, affrettato presto possibile o IMpossibile, affrettato cadendo dalle scale, affrettato "dov'è il gabinetto" and many, many more sophisticated musical terms. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[Jim Garber]

Think of: affrettato maniaco, affrettato precipitoso, affrettato catastrofico, affrettato presto possibile o IMpossibile, affrettato cadendo dalle scale, affrettato "dov'è il gabinetto" and many, many more sophisticated musical terms. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
How about affrettato alla caffe (pardon my pidgin Italian)?

Jim

[vkioulaphides]

That, Jim, is what we do between those long, back-to-back dress-rehearsals. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Arto]

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

PS: what is "affrettato" in English?

[Alex Timmerman]

Hello Arto (et al),

Affrettato means accelerate or in plain english:#speeding up.

There is also Affrettare that can be best translated with: hasten (towards).


In this particular case I would say that it is best to start off the first 4 demisemiquavers of the 17th uplet in the double speed/tempo (compared with the 16th in the previous bar), than apply the gravity role and speed up - or better fall ´downwards´ to the bottom G of the 17th uplet after which you ´climb up the mountain´ (again taking the gravity role in account) and slow down broadly (molto lento) towards the final chord in the nex bar.

This all has to be done in a nice and smooth manner so that it "sounds" freely and easy. #

(Imagine viewing a roller coaster).


Greetings,

Alex

[billkilpatrick]

demisemiquavers?...

17th uplet in double speed/tempo?...

apply the gravity role?...

oh alex, i despair. a roller coaster indeed.

- bill

[vkioulaphides]

To make a minor, musical/linguistic point:

There is a minor, yet significant difference between the musical terms affrettando and accelerando in their application of musical effects:

The former, from the word fretta, as in the verbal expression aver fretta means "hurry", to "be in a hurry"— this is a "micro"-rhythmic event, a "local event". Notes get rushed, hurried somewhat, BUT only within a given, localized musical gesture.

The latter signifies an acceleration FROM the current tempo TO another, faster one, and is thus a "macro"-rhythmic event, one that is used to bridge from one section to another one by way of a transition.

Problem is, when accelerando means going from M.M. 80 to M.M. 100, well, the "outer limits" of this event are pretty much predetermined; when, however, the composer's affretando is taken, ehm... genererously by the conductors (as it often is), the effect can be somewhat, errr... heart-stopping. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif