Johnson ma-550 vs tc

[lance_wallen]

I've been playin guitar and a variety of other instruments for about 17 years now. I recently started playing around with my friends mandolin and I really liked it. So while I was doing research on them I ran across a video of some one playing an octave and I absolutely fell in love with the sound. Since then I've been a little obsessed.

So, I'm about to make my first purchase. I'm looking at a good learning instrument: i.e. easy enough to play that it wont frustrate me to no end, complex enough that once I get my chops I can actually PLAY it (my guitar background and the experience I had on mandolin is I'll be picking it up pretty fast) and somewhat sturdy.

I don't want to blow a grand on an instrument just yet, I know I'll end up doing that anyway but i need a good beater to learn on. Everything I've read (which has been limited) has pointed me towards the Johnson MA-550 and the TC OM.

I was wanting some comparisons you guys might have, I've access to a quality guy to do the set up on either and I intend on immediately putting on a bone nut and after warming up to it replacing the tailpiece. Question is, which should i get?

I've both available to me at this point, I can potentially get the Johnson a little cheaper than the TC but the TC would be coming with a hard case and already set up whereas I'd have to get the Johnson set up and what not.

So, Johnson MA-550 or TC OM? Or... is there a better third option out there I'm not aware of that meets my criteria?

[zoukboy]

My vote would be for the TC. It will probably need a set-up and will benefit greatly from an upgrade to one of Randy Allen's cast tailpieces. And replacing the bridge is also a good idea.

[Celtic Saguaro]

I'm not sure the Johnson is actually being produced any more. The TC seems to be the choice of those who tried both, anyway. I've tried the TC, and found it to be good for the price.

Set-up is an excellent idea. But, personally, if you're not sure you want to own it forever, I'd save the money on upgrades for a better overall instrument. You can always add the upgrades later if you change your mind.

[otterly2k]

Hey Lance -
Welcome to the wonderful world of OM's. I encourage you to read in the CBOM section, and use the search feature, to find the many discussions that have gone on about the relative merits of various instruments.

I've been hanging around here long enough to be able to offer a summary. There are several that come out of the same one or two factories to slightly different specs and finishes...but that are very similar instruments. The general consensus around here seems to be that the Trinity College mandolins are the best bet of the bunch of factory-produced OM's in that price range. That said, there is variation from one instrument to the other, so you might find a Fender or Gold Tone or Johnson that sounds as good or better than a particular TC. And it's always best to be able to put your hands and ears directly on some instruments to get a sense of what feels and sounds best to you. But if you can't do that, I'd say, go with TC.

Personally, I'd steer clear of the Johnson MA550 because it seems to me to be marketing an aesthetic -- the asymmetrical two=point design with the abalone inlay and sunburst is flashy -- but if you read the specs, you'll find that the back and sides are laminate (so they can put nice looking veneer on the outside) and not solid wood. I think it's generally better to go with solid woods whenever possible. They have put more resources into the appearance of the 550. The Johnson MA-450 is less flashy and is made from solid woods, like the TC, and might be worth considering.

Either way you go, you'll definitely want a good set-up. That Johnson may be cheaper up front, but the hard case and the set-up on the TC, combined with the better rep and solid woods, tip the balance in favor of TC, in my opinion. And if you get to the point where you want to upgrade, it'll be easier to sell the TC.

KE

[MandoSquirrel]

Once Roger Landes(zoukboy) & Karen(otterly2k) have spoken, nothing more need be said. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[MDW]

I've owned both and prefer the TC both in terms of tone and appearance. The 550 looks a lot more gaudy in person than it does in an internet picture or catalog. I sold the 550 and have kept the TC.

[lance_wallen]

good info guys, thanks a lot http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I had an opportunity to buy the MA-550 for ~300 bucks which is why I was really considering it. The fellow I'm buying the TC from is my normal guitar guy who does the set ups for my guitars, my friends mandos and is just one of those all around great guys that no one knows about or recognizes (he works out of his garage and doesn't advertise at all.) he's gonna sell me the TC for 600 with the case and fully set up with some new strings and an added strap peg at the base of the neck.

As for set up, I've been reading up and there's one question that I still have. People talk about the Allen tailpieces all the time but I only see a couple listed for the OM/Zouk, but then I see a lot of folks talking about specific model numbers that look to be just "mandolin" TP's. Will any mando TP work on an octave? (assuming curve vs flat top differences)

I don't want to jump neck deep into set up yet, my guy's going to be restringing and making the normal truss adjustments no matter what. He's waiting on word from me about replacing the nut with a bone and there was no plan to redo the bridge. So... my questions!

Should I just get the basic fingerboard adjustments and new strings and then play it a while before changing anything else? I played it as is (i.e. right off the factory floor) at his place while he was working on one of my accoustics and to be honest I didn't want to give it back, the action was maybe just a little stiff but not high or hard by any means, there was 0 buzz unless I just brutally banged on the thing. The volume was a little lighter than I expected but still had ok projection and sound quality. Tone wise it was a little bland, not a lot of complexity to the sound but the quality of the tone was good (i.e. it sounded good, just not "pro" which I didn't expect anyway)

What I don't want to do is throw a new tailpiece, bone nut, brand new bridge, new strings, full fingerboard adjustment, spinners, and flowmaster exhaust on an instrument I haven't really played yet. I'm worried I'll "Over mod" the thing and end up with a sound I'm not into.

As for owning the thing forever.. This will be in my stash until I'm dead or its dead, I don't get rid of instruments. Aside from learning on it, I need an instrument I'm not terribly invested in to play outdoors and at nasty bars in sessions and at ren faires. Something that I wont get terribly upset if it rains on a bit or I ding it against a bar or stool. If I love it like I think I'm going to love it, I'll eventually put aside a couple months of saving to pick up a pro instrument that I'll use for more intimate or professional settings. I still need this one to be show worthy and a work horse.

One thing I haven't found a lot of on the boards (and I might just be searching poorly) is what each modification does for the overall sound. What makes a mando louder, what makes the tone more complex, what'll give me a better projection, etc. I'm just getting into those details with guitar as well so my knowledge base is limited.

I appreciate everyones feedback, especially getting a couple of the big guns this early on http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif I'll try not to be too much of a pest!

[Celtic Saguaro]

If you like it as-is now, then it will probably make you happy as-is for the forseeable future. You don't have to assume it's a kit that needs improving right away. If it's a new TC, it will probably open up a bit as you play it in.

If you decide to buy, get the basic set-up and see how it goes.

[otterly2k]

Once Roger Landes(zoukboy) & Karen(otterly2k) have spoken, nothing more need be said

Wow, M-squirrel - you flatter me. I don't have nearly the history, experience, expertise or street cred (string cred?) that Roger has... I just read and post a lot. But if Roger has the same impression I do, I take that as a sign that I'm learning something worth knowing.

Anyway, Lance...
looking over your last post...the most compelling argument you made about the Johnson is that it's cheap. While only you can decide how to spend your money, I'd echo a common sentiment around here which is to buy the best instrument you can afford - especially if (as you say) you're the kind of person who will keep that instrument for a long time, I'd say go for the best you can find and afford, not the cheapest. I think a well set-up TC will be a great place to start and a very serviceable instrument moving forward. If you get really hooked, you can always add another instrument later.

Re: your questions -
The Allen tp's for mandos will also work for OM's. The only thing to be alert to is the angle. Since the distance from tailpiece to mandolin bridge is shorter, and the bridge is typically taller (especially on a carved mando), some tp's angle up in a way that doesn't put enough downward pressure on an OM bridge (esp. if it's on the low side). I tried to put an Allen MR tp on the OM I made, and it didn't have enough downward pressure... but the TR worked fine after I bent it a little downward so the top of the tp would lie close to the top of the OM.

I think it's a reasonable strategy to have the basic adjustments done first so you can get started playing it and get to know the instrument... and then to make modifications a bit at a time.

[Steve L]

I'm surprised no one has said this, but $600 is a pretty stiff price for a Trinity College.

[groveland]

That is a very high price, and the TC comes with the case anyway, but I figured his guitar guy was charging for the tailpiece ($90) plus the bone nut install, and then setup - Which could go to $600 pretty easily (~$450 + $90 + the setup labor). #However, I am pretty certain the nut is already bone (mine was) and may just need to be shaped.

[Cheryl Watson]

I have a MA 550, and have not played a TC. I can say the Johnson IMO is not a bad sounding OM. I have been happy with it and found that a heavier gauge string on the bass strings helps for any jangling. I don't play it as much as my mandolins, so for me at this time it's fine. I may even record with it, I did a quick take of a tune I'm working on and it recorded remarkably well.
Teri L

[Steve L]

Groveland, unless I'm misreading the post this price does not include a new nut or tailpiece. It includes case, strap button and new strings and "set up" which could just be adjusting the truss rod or something. I just think that's a lot to pay some guy who does business out of his garage for something you can get set up from Elderly for $100 less brand new or hunt around here on the classifieds or even Ebay even cheaper.

[groveland]

If what you say is true, it's like $150 high, right? And then add the mods on top of that? Ouch. I don't want to rain on the parade, but I say if that's true, hold out for a better OM at that price!

[lance_wallen]

Most places I looked had the TC up for no less than 500. When he does his set up he adjusts the truss rod, shapes the nut or bridge as needed, and dresses the frets if they need it.

They seem to retail for 675 (msrp) and places liek folk of the wood have em on "sale" for 540. Given I'd have to pay shippin to get them from anywhere else on top of paying for the set up after the fact I'm not really saving any money unless I pick up a used one which I've no interest in doing.

edit: forgot to mention, other than the generic set up stuff, I'm getting the new strap pin the new strings which I've got to get back to him about which ones I want, and he said he'll install any other modifications I want to it as long as I bring him the parts like the machines, TP, etc.


He's not the lowest price in town but his service is amazing, I walk in and he does the work right then and I'm always happy with what I walk out with.

[otterly2k]

I think that's a relationship worth cultivating, Lance. And if he's willing to do additional mods on request -- to me, that's worth it. I agree with your assessment that once you figure in the cost of shipping and potentially those modifications down the road, you're probably about even. You could probably find a used TC substantially cheaper, but then it'd be luck-of-the-draw in terms of set-up and condition, etc. You support that local guy with your purchase and he supports you with great service... that's win-win in my book.

[MandoSquirrel]

Elderly, The Mandolin Store, etc. recently(last few months)went up on the TC's from $450 to $499 shipping might be included from dealers such as those two. If he'll include the set up & everything, it's probably worth the extra $101 or so; as otterly2k (KE) said, cultivate the relationship.

otterly2k (KE); I find your posts interesting, well informed, & indicative that you've studied your subject as best you're able. Always worth reading. Plus, in this case, I agreed with you http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif !

[lance_wallen]

I think that's a relationship worth cultivating, Lance. And if he's willing to do additional mods on request -- to me, that's worth it. I agree with your assessment that once you figure in the cost of shipping and potentially those modifications down the road, you're probably about even. You could probably find a used TC substantially cheaper, but then it'd be luck-of-the-draw in terms of set-up and condition, etc. You support that local guy with your purchase and he supports you with great service... that's win-win in my book.
The relationship and the position this guy holds is also worth money to me.

In my opinion (not to get off on any sort of rant) the music retail industry as a whole has become just that, an industry. There are so few of those little local shops where you've got a guy with years of experience and season working on instruments. It's all big retail centers now like guitarshop, Mr. E's music, etc. Those places make me sad, I walk in and ask educated questions and I'll be lucky to find a clerk that knows the answers or knows the right answers. I can't count how many times I've got bad info from some random clerk at a retail outlet because he/she didn't want to sound ignorant and just rattled off some bad info to answer my question and get a sale. Just recently my partner went to buy a stand for his mando and the guy just gave him a small electric guitar stand. The braces were too narrow to hold the depth of the instrument and too far apart to even touch the thing so we had to do some bending and drill holes to adjust the stand so a mandolin would fit in it. That sorta thing just drives me nuts.

When I walk into this guys garage I know that he'll tell me he doesn't know if he doesn't and chances are he WILL know the answers to my questions. I don't mind paying a little extra for that sort of service.

The Johnson I was looking at might go over 300 bucks, at which point I'll back out of it. I intend on buying both at this point if I can get the Johnson for 300 or less because after looking at a lot of the tunes I'm going to be working up for my show I'm going to want 2 OMs on hand so I can have one tuned GDGD and the other standard GDAE, I'll probably get the johnson set up specifically for GDGD tuning (as far as string gauge and what not) and leave the TC set to standard since it'll be the tuning I use for 'most' of the songs.

What, in your opinions, would be the next worthwhile step up from the TC? I don't want to make a tiny incremental jump since that would involve another investment of 800-1000 dollars but I'm already looking at the future and knowing at some point I'll probably want a more refined instrument than the TC.

Tone wise I want bright highs and strong bass notes with great projection and the ability to play soft but still have a good strong volume that can ring out over a large group of people. I know the TC will be serviceable for years and will probably always be my go to instrument for my more rowdy gigs like crowded bars or outdoors playing but I'd like to start eyeballing potential "upgrades" without looking at that dream instrument that I'll need to take a loan out to buy http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Celtic Saguaro]

The next step up involves some small builders so the landscape may change over a short time. Several of us have Petersen OMs. I like mine a lot. Mine has a walnut back so the bass side is very good. One with a maple back might give you more on the high end.

As far as mass produced, Weber makes decent OMs but they are more expensive. #Eastman has a mandola out, so there is a possibility they might make an OM someday soon. #Michael Kelly has one, but it has not drawn much praise from those who've tried them.

[otterly2k]

Lance -
if you have the $ to get both the TC and the Johnson, you might consider pooling those funds to get one better instrument. #The Petersens mentioned above are very well reputed. #Mid-Mo/Big Muddy and Weber Sages are about at that same price-point and level... although they'll all have different qualities.

Beyond that, you enter the realm of custom orders as well as the upper level Webers. #The Webers I have played have not been my cup of tea, and they're very pricey. #But some people really dig them. #I had a Trillium that was stellar, but too long a scale for me (small hands). #I'm happy with the instrument I have from Brian Dean. #I'll also speak very highly of Arches ... Judith (a semi-regular poster here, and my picking pal) has one and it is terrific. #There is one currently in the classifieds for $1500, which imho is a great deal and somebody ought to scoop that one up. #There are many terrific builders who'll make you a top quality OM.

I think, though, that your ideas about what type of sound and feel you're looking for will really take shape as you start playing. #I encourage you to go with whatever decision seems right to you and get started... and then look for opportunities to play any/all OM's you come across. #Also listen to recordings and see if there are any instruments whose tone jump out at you. #These instruments are not really standardized, so there are a lot of variables that you can have preferences about... scale, radius, flat vs. induced arch vs.carved tops, different woods, teardrop vs. two-point vs. guitar shaped vs. florentine, different types of pickups, etc etc. #And all of this will interact with your playing style as it develops. #

So as for "worthwhile next step" -- I'd say... let that cook on the back burner as you get started. #And get as much exposure as you can to OM playing, players and instruments.

ps... thanks mr. squirrel.

[steve V. johnson]

Even tho the MandoSquirrel wisely wrote, "Once Roger Landes(zoukboy) & Karen(otterly2k) have spoken, nothing more need be said." such wisdom has very seldom held me back ...

I had an MA-550 (in my wild and impetuous youth) and I found that the 'standard' upgrades didn't help it much.

Prices aside, the TCs I've known would respond to a good setup and upgrades and sound much better.

stv

[lance_wallen]

I'm actualy kinda hoping the Johnson price goes up so I don't buy it ;) If I do get it, I'll most likely tune it to whatever 'alternate' tuning I want for a given set and it'll be my grab axe for specific songs only with the TC as my primary instrument as I mentioned above.

I like variety, I started whistling and right now I only have 2 whistles, but by the end of the year once my orders and budget is settled I'll have a set of 6 Syn whistles from austrailia and hopefully a couple from two different local whistle smiths and have made some of my own on top of that :P

[lance_wallen]

oh well, it's officially a non point :P some one outbid me on the Johnson and I'm not willing to pay over 300 bucks for an OM that's going to get little lap time and take ~100 bucks to get where I want it anyway. I'll just learn to retune fast on the TC ;)

[rhetoric]

The only people who think the 550 is gaudy (gawdy?) are mandolin people. The "general public" sees mine and says, "Wow! That's beautiful!" I say, being a mandolin person, "Well, it's a little bit flashy." and the "general public says, "No, it's gorgeous!"

In any case, I love the sound of my 550 and I hate teardrop octaves. If I bought something new it would have a custom or a guitar shaped octave.