Collings v. dudenbostel/nugget/ellis [Archive]

bradeinhorn

Sep-10-2007, 10:25am

I'm not going to touch the tone area, but i will say that as to fit and finish, Collings really does a superb job on their mandolins, even the entry model instruments rarely lack perfection. i've owned a#couple and played easily 40 of them and i think it would be hard to make an argument otherwise. the workmanship is just gorgeous.

Andrew Lewis

Sep-10-2007, 10:32am

I would like to add an element to this discussion, if you don't mind: neck shape. I played a few Collings this weekend and noticed they all had a pretty pronounced 'V' in the neck. Is this a Collings standard? What about the Dudes, Nuggets, and Ellis's?

Please let this be just an add-on to the OP. I don't want to derail the OP's original question...

Philip Halcomb

Sep-10-2007, 10:37am

One interesting mandolin to try is the Collings/Nugget Collaboration Tim O'Brien model. I've played a couple of those and they sound great and also have the near-perfect fit and finish of the Collings mandolins. So you kind of get the best of both worlds. Great mandolins highly recommended!

Rick Schmidlin

Sep-10-2007, 10:43am

All three great builders,it's hard to compare without playing side by side.

Kevin Briggs

Sep-10-2007, 10:49am

Greg Boyd once told me that the Collings MF5V Deluxe (I think that's the name - the top model) is as good a mandolin as he's ever played. It also costs half of the other builders you mentioned.

That said, I don't think you can call the workmanship perfect when the under side of the scroll isn't finished.

red7flag

Sep-10-2007, 11:10am

To me, it is almost eerie how perfect the workmanship is, inspite of the underside of the scroll comment. #I have had the pleasure of playing a number of F5 style Collings and the fit and finish is remarkable. #To me this is almost a negative as is feels almost too perfect for me I like the mojos that make each instrument individual. #I will say this, that just playing, I really enjoy the feel of the Collings in my hands. #The v in the neck was at first a bit disconcerting, but now I don't even notice it. I can say my MF and the other Collings I have played have just been like butter. #As others, I will not compare the tone. #I will say that the MF has a different more growly sound than the MF5 and the MF5V sounds smoother or more rounded than the other two. #To me the word refined captures the MF5V.
Tony

Jonathan Peck

Sep-10-2007, 11:53am

I take it that you don't plan to buy one of each http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif I would recomend that you start a dialog with each of the sellers of the mandolins that you have in your sights and ask them this very question. If price is no option, then you have the means to feed a bad case of what we affectionately call MAS.

Joe Dodson

Sep-10-2007, 12:14pm

Never played a dude or nugget, but the Collings I've played have been as good or better as some other high-end builders I've played. I own and love an MT.

In theory, I've started saving for a high-end mandolin someday, but I'm really not feeling any MAS. A good friend has been trying out a cycle of high-end F-styles, most of which cost about 5 times the price of mine. Except for the Ellis that he wound up keeping, none of them tempted me to trade up from my humble little MT.

If I've got any MAS at all right now, it's probably for one of those Tim O'Brien Nugget/Collings.

mandopete

Sep-10-2007, 12:22pm

I would like to add an element to this discussion, if you don't mind: neck shape. I played a few Collings this weekend and noticed they all had a pretty pronounced 'V' in the neck. Is this a Collings standard?
Yes, I have noticed this on all of the Collings mandolins.

Bradley

Sep-10-2007, 5:02pm

I absolutely have no financial interest in this discussion, but after seeing some recent Ellis Mandolins I dont believe I have played anything nicer than these mandolins. I have been playng for 20+ years and dont think that anything has blown my socks off the way that the new Ellis mandolins do. They are priced very close to the High End Collings at 10-11K.

Good Luck

mandopete

Sep-10-2007, 5:17pm

I'd say the backside of those Ellis mandolins are probably worth the price of admission!

What I think is interesting about the original line of thinking for this thread is that someone was comparing a mass produced mandolin such as the Collings with the custom work of Dudenbostel, Kemnitzer and Ellis.

I'm only guessing here, but I think even a top of line Collings MF-5V is still about half of the cost (and maybe even half of the waiting time) than the those custom builders.

Kevin Briggs

Sep-10-2007, 5:31pm

Hey, man. Didn't you read my post? I said the same thing. No respect, I tell ya. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

mandopete

Sep-10-2007, 5:34pm

Great minds think alike?

Hey Kevin - I dig the pictures of your sound man!

dcoxmandolin

Sep-10-2007, 5:54pm

Well I think I'll chime in here. I have been playing bluegrass full time for about 30 years now. I've had my hands on just about everything from a Loar to a Gil. With all this talk about Dudes, Nuggets, Gils I think this is preference as far as sound is concerned. Loars are great mandolins aand there's no question about it.
Hey fella's,have you ever heard Demsey Young's HUTTO mandolin? To me that is the finest mandolin I have ever had the pleasure of hearing. The Hutto mandolin will rival any of these makers. Also,what about Sim Daley? Sim Daley makes as sweet of a mandolin as it gets. I played 2 Daley mandolins in Memphis and those were great mandolins. I played them next to Gils and would have taken the Daley over the Gils.
I personally play a MF5 Collings and that mandolin is, well that's a long love affair that I probably will never part from. The Collings to me is the best bang for the buck out there but that won't last for long. I fully expect that in 10 years or so those mandolins will be at the same price range as Dudes and Nuggets, etc.
My parting thoughts here are that after many years of playing we now have a great bunch of luthiers out there and we are spoiled rotten here, but in a good way. As for me, My next mandolin will be another Collings, varnish or no varnish.:laugh:

pjlama

Sep-10-2007, 6:23pm

I'm in an airport and wrote this long reply only to lose it but...
I recently posted a similar question but with only the Collings vs. the Ellis. I'd link to the thread but am not too smart and running short on time as the flight should board soon. I didn't inquire about Dude's or Nuggets as I figured 10-12k was enough to get something passable. Plus if I had to wait for even a few months I'd go nuts, Ellis and Collings can be had with minimal waiting. I played a good amount of Collings but wound up buying an Ellis. I preffered the idea of a smaller builder and I spoke to Tom at length a few times talking about my needs and listening to his ideas about mandolins. To say my Ellis has exceeded my expectations would be an understatement. The build is almost perfect, the tone is rich and complex, the playability is like butter, very loud and it has soul. I just think without looking at the money it's hard to beat then once you look at the money you'd be crazy to go another way.
I guess you can infer that I'm saying go wih an Ellis http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

cooper4205

Sep-10-2007, 6:53pm

That said, I don't think you can call the workmanship perfect when the under side of the scroll isn't finished.
I don't think anyone really "finishes" the insides of the scrolls, though some might be less rough than others.

man doh

Sep-10-2007, 8:38pm

cooper4205

Sep-10-2007, 8:53pm

I'm not going to touch the tone area, but i will say that as to fit and finish, Collings really does a superb job on their mandolins.
Doesn't tone have to do with technique???

I don't know you and don't want to start a flame but if you don't have something nice to say don't say anything at all.

I'm sure in a few months you will be selling your current mandolin and plugging the next.

If Collings didn't have tone they wouldn't hold there value like other major builders.
Not to speak for Brad, but I don't think he was bashing Collings at all. If you look at some of his other posts, you can see he has had positive things to say about Collings mandolins. It's just that comparing tone between mandolins is a lot more subjective than comparing fit & finish.

And even if he didn't like the tone, what's wrong with someone giving a contrary opinion if that is what they really think?

Kevin Briggs

Sep-10-2007, 8:55pm

As for the Collings tone, I say that it's great. I like a unique sound. It's still closer to the traditional bluegrass tone than my Fern, but, tonally, is not a Loar replica, and I like that.

Coop, that's a good point about the inside of the scroll on most mandolins. They don't seem to be finished like the most visable areas. That said, I still think 12k is a lot to pay for an intrument that has a pretty noticeable unfinished area. Then again, I'd pay less for a "distressed" instrument. I'm just a person who likes things new when they're new.

I used to like the jeans that had a hole in them when I bought them, but not anymore. To me, it's like buying the "look" of being used, when they aren't used at all. This, however, is a different topic, and i don't want to hijack this thread.

Nick Triesch

Sep-10-2007, 9:12pm

I have heard this before. Some say a Collings is just too perfect. I know folks who have said to me in the past that A/K and Union Station are too clean sounding, too perfect, too tight. I'm sorry folks but this is the direction that we are going. Collings has raised the bar for perfection. Now I notice that other makers are really starting to go in that direction. They have to. With Collings MF5 being one of the cleanest mandolins made today for about $7200.00 with great sound, all the other high end makers that cost $20,000 must jump on the bandwagen. Some already do such as Nuggett. Other examples of perfection.....Porsche 911, Rolex, James Goodall guitars. IMHO, Nick

dochardee

Sep-10-2007, 9:23pm

I owned one of the first 100 Collings MF-5's and it was the loudest mandolin I ever played; the chop would startle you. Fit and finish were perfect; I really liked the v neck. The tone wasn't traditional bluegrass though, and I wound up having Sim Daley build me one. The tone he gets is to die for, if you can handle the wait. Fit and finish of the Daley were very high, very clean, but not perfect like the Collings ... you could see a few tool marks on the Daley if you looked closely; but Sim doesn't use CNC either.

Chris Biorkman

Sep-10-2007, 9:49pm

I've also never really understood the "too perfect" argument. To me it just sounds a little silly to say that you want workmanship to be a little sloppier and less clean. Why wouldn't I want something to be made as cleanly as possible?

red7flag

Sep-10-2007, 10:06pm

To clarify, to have that human element. Not sloppy but with some individual character. I truly respect Collings and have had a DH2 and an MF. The MF is not going anywhere and I love it. What I am talking about is just a feeling I get and obviously some others too. It is not the fit and finish that get get the high bucks but that tone. I can sacrifice some fit and finish for tone, any time. I think a good example with someone with great fit and finish and real individuality and class to their instruments is Hans. I don't think I really like the way I have expressed this so think I will stop. I don't think I have even convinced myself.
Tony

bjewell

Sep-10-2007, 11:12pm

I have no opportunity to see a Collings mando in Tokyo. So a question(s)? Are the necks bolton like the guitars, and is the finish -- not the varnish ones -- poly like the guitars?

Big Joe

Sep-11-2007, 7:56am

The collings mandolin does not use a bolt on neck. Two builders in the same price range as Collings that build excellent instruments in the F style are Tom Ellis and Chris Stanley. You get (I believe) better tone and incredible fit and finish at a similar price. Their mandolins are likely to have a good value down the road becuase there are not as many of them. One of the things to maintaing value is how many are built. Collings pumps a lot of them out of the ole factory. If there are always plenty available, the market will not increase as much as one that has a limited availability. Or course, I've heard it said that rare does not mean valuable http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif .

Windflite

Sep-11-2007, 8:44am

Good points from everybody, pro and con. #I bought my MF5 3 years ago and have never looked back. #That 'perfectness' is starting to get a little distressed (the old fashioned way!) and for me at least, the tone, fit/finish and playability are second to none. #Because of my happiness with the MF5, I also recently bought a Collings Winfield (CWBaaaA) guitar which has also clearly exceeded my expectations. #Long and the short of it; get your hands on one and try it out. #As far as cranking 'em out at the factory...seems to me they've got the receipe pretty well figured out. # It's that consistency in quality and tone that makes it possible to buy a Collings sight unseen... You gotta like 'perfect' though!

Signed...very happilly biased...
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

AlanN

Sep-11-2007, 9:15am

In my experience, I have found 'tone' to be very subjective and frankly, hit or miss. To claim that one builder has 'better tone' belies reality, to my ears. I have played highest end newer Gibson mandolins which I thought sounded weak. I had a Monteleone GA which was weak. I have played F5G's which varied widely in 'tone', same with Gilchrist. Some makers seem fairly consistent in the 'tone' department, like Kemnitzer.

'Tone' seems to be the result of a complex combination of wood, metal, strings, action, feel, attack, etc. that I need to check out instruments one-at-a-time, individually, even within the same brand.

Glassweb

Sep-11-2007, 9:54am

mandopete

Sep-11-2007, 9:59am

Because of my happiness with the MF5, I also recently bought a Collings Winfield (CWBaaaA) guitar which has also clearly exceeded my expectations. #
How do you like the Winfield?

I too bought a Collings guitar, a D-3, in part based upon my exprience with the mandolin (MF-5R).

I will agree that this "tone" thing is pretty subjective. #What I will say is the both the Collings mandolins and guitars are very consistent. #I guess from a "collectability" perspective that may not be desireable, but I bought these instruments to play, not to look at 'em.

lovethemf5s

Sep-11-2007, 10:06am

I'm going to buy a new Collings MF5 in a few weeks. I've played a few in shops and found them to be incredible instruments and an excellent value. I know that many small builders make great mandolins but the main reason I'm going with Collings is their lifetime warranty. I plan on keeping this mandolin for the rest of my life and I feel that a larger builder stands more of a chance of being around years down the road in case there is a problem. Also, the resale factor doesn't concern me since I won't be selling it.

Peter Hackman

Sep-11-2007, 10:33am

I bought my Collings MF5 3 years ago and it immediately made me put away my Flatiron Artist A5 mainly because of its superior playability, owing to the radiused fretboard and a properly cut nut. On my other mandolin I found it a bit hard to play in flatted keys in first position because of the nut.

And that's where the music is!

I don't recall exactly what made me choose a Collings since I couldn't try out an instrument before buying. One reason could be that one of the 2 or 3 guitars
I really play is a Collings rosewood SJ.

Nick Triesch

Sep-11-2007, 4:03pm

Seems like Collings are the Toyota/Lexus/Porsche of mandolins. Have you seen the average MF5 resale value? They are fantastic mandolins and a terrific value even though they "pump them out' from the ol factory. Nick

Rick Schmidlin

Sep-11-2007, 4:19pm

I think for resale that Collings will always be a quick resale or trade in a fair price point and honest deal.

mcgroup53

Sep-11-2007, 4:36pm

>>
I have no opportunity to see a Collings mando in Tokyo.

>>

Go to the Ochanomizu district in Tokyo and there is one shop there with quite a few nice Collings guitars, and I believe they had a couple of Collings mandos. Sorry, can't tell you which shop, but they also had a bunch of vintage Martins and Gibsons and 3 ultra-cool gypsy jazz guitars from French luthier Maurice Dupont.

Dave McCarty

Romkey

Sep-11-2007, 4:58pm

I love the Lexus comment! I bought an MT2 six months back. The fit and finish are flawless. Good tone that's getting more complex with playing. And the sucker is LOUD. I'd love to have a Gil or a Master Model -- but those bang-for-the-buck comments are on the money. I'll probably look at some MFVs when I have the dough. Wonder how they compare with the recent vintage Gibson Ferns? One of those two mandos -- MFV & a used Fren -- are my present fantasy purchase. As for the V neck on the Collings and radiused fretboard, I didn't think I'd like them but I was wrong.

bjewell

Sep-11-2007, 10:21pm

Might be Guitar Planet, and outlet for the Kurosawa group. I'll stop by. Thanks! FWIW, I'm in Ochanomizu at least twice a week. There is also a great Thai restaurant and a wonderful Curry shop I stop by for lunch wshen I'm there...

troika

Sep-12-2007, 1:16pm

I can attest to the fact that Collings makes one of the very best mandolins available. I have a MF5V and a laquered MF5. They are both incredible mandolins. My mandolin odyssey has taken me through a Gil, a Daley, and a couple of Collings. Having had a chance to AB all these in various stages, I have to say that everything about the Collings mandos I own are top notch; from the buttery playability and beautifully balanced tone to the perfect aesthetics, geometry, and fit & finish. I have not had a chance to try Ellis or Dudenbostle mandolins. I am sure they are great.