Ready to upgrade

[Joe F]

I've been reading most of the "Which mandolin should I get for $XXXX?" threads for a couple of years -- mostly out of simple curiosity, since my financial situation prevented me from considering even a modest upgrade from my 25-year old Japanese Kentucky KM-200S. #However, in the past 2-3 years, my playing has improved enough to where I think I can justify a better instrument. #Thanks in part to a larger than expected tax refund and some other changes, a serious upgrade in the next few months is becoming a real possibility. #I'm aiming for around $2500, give or take a few hundred.

Here are my search parameters:

As much as I'd love an F style, I realize that at this price point, an A will give me a lot more instrument for the money.

I play about 80% old-time and 20% bluegrass, and love the look of the oval hole mandolins, but I also like the chunky bluegrass sound (to cut through a large group of fiddlers at old-time jams). #As a result, I'm leaning strongly towards maple back and sides with F holes.

I haven't had much experience with radiused fretboards, but my intuition tells me that would be very nice to have.

I'm open to new or used, but I would definitely like to test drive as many as possible, especially the used ones. #I have no predispositions -- positive or negative -- about the larger companies (i.e. I would consider a Gibson/Weber/Collings/etc. if it felt right and I could afford it).

Finally, if I go the custom-built route, it would be nice to get something from a luthier in this region (Minnesota). #Brentrup and LaPlant are probably out of my range, but lesser-known builders, such as Steve Rossow, could be a possibility.

Any and all suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

[kjskipper]

In light of my previous post (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=13;t=46349), I would like to give one big, gigantic vote for the Collings MT. For under $2500.00, well under if you find one used, the sound, playability, volume, and precise intonation are just about unbeatable.

I've had mine for several months now, and even though I'm exploring the idea of upgrading, I'm still very impressed with my little MT. It's an absolutely beautiful instrument, in both sight and sound.

[DustyRayj]

I played a used Flatiron "A" at the Mountain Music Shoppe in Shawnee Kansas that if I did not have scroll envy so bad I would have bought on the spot. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[Lou Scuderi]

Are you considering both used and new? #Getting custom instruments is great, but as Bill Bussmann once told me, a mandolin (or any instrument, I suppose) is like a pair of shoes, you should try it out to see how it feels before buying it. #I'd reccomend going to any local shop that sells mandos, or even go to one of the bigger stores to try out a few. #Not only might you find a great deal, it's really fun! #I became a regular at my local mando shop last summer when I was looking for my new mando, and I played some really nice instruments and really built up a picture of what I wanted. #That's why, when I was first introduced to the mando I have now, it only took 5 minutes for me to decide that I wanted it. #I took another 40 minutes before actually buying it, but it made my decision a lot easier. #
If you're set on a new one, the good ones in that price range (that I know of and have tried personally) are:
Collings MT
Weber (several styles, A and F)
Old Wave A5 (my personal favorite)
Flatiron (various)
Pre-Loar Gibson F4 (I've never played one of these, but it was recomended to me when I was on my personal hunt)

There's a LOT MORE in this price range. #Try 'em all!

[Edit]:
I realize the Gibson wouldn't be new, but I thought I'd put it on there just for the heck of it.

[F5G WIZ]

You can get into one of Andy Poe's Basic F models for around $2700.00 That's brand new built for you, fully bound, radiused fret board, varnish finished and with Andy's well know attention to detail. You won't be disappointed. You just have to wait a few months. Http://www.poestrings.com

[Adam Tracksler]

check out john hamlett his web page (http://www.hamlettinstruments.com) I have one and it amazes me all the time with its versatility and pure tone.

[mythicfish]

" but I also like the chunky bluegrass sound (to cut through a large group of fiddlers at old-time jams)."

That's not a sound that serious and knowledgable OT players are particularly fond of. But that's OK ... they take themselves too seriously and I like to annoy them too. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Curt

[ab4usa]

Joe,
'
I also have an Old Wave A5. It is great for OT and celtic but had a chop that will keep up with and Banjo. Contact Bill and see if he doesn't have a customer in your general area that you might contact.

[Lee]

- Wait around for a used Phoenix.

[red7flag]

If I was at that price point with the use you describe, I would second the Collings MT. I have been impressed with the Old Wave that I have heard and while the one I heard was an F model, I am sure the A would sound great too. There are Gibson and Flatiron A's in the classifieds at that point to that you might consider. You have a lot of choices. I suggest you take your time until you fall in love with an instrument. In the mean time, enjoy the ride trying as many instruments as you can.
Tony

[Don Christy]

Based on your considerations, I would seriously consider a Collings. They are (mostly) awesome and you should be able to try out the specific one you're going to buy without having to wait for it to be built. Though if you loosen up your requirements a bit and look at builders outside your area (and don't mind a little wait), I would recommend Ken or Laura Ratcliff (Silver Angel), Don Paine (Pomeroy) or Bill Bussmann. I have a Silver Angel and Pomeroy and have played several Bussmann's. Great instruments all and something in your price range.
Don

[DryBones]

- Wait around for a used Phoenix.
there is a blacktop Phoenix Bluegrass model in the classified for $3100+ NFI

[otterly2k]

I'll echo the Phoenix suggestions. The Standard or Neoclassical or Deluxe would all be good bets. I haven't played a Bluegrass model... but my Neoclassical has a tone that's kind of right in between an oval and a f-hole tone, and I"m digging it. Since you play a lot of Old Time, you might not want a super dry F5 sound.

That said...I'm also a big fan of Bill Bussman's Old Waves... had an oval that was a terrific axe- perfect for OT. Haven't played his A5, but have heard good things about it, and certainly trust his craft.

[sunburst]

" but I also like the chunky bluegrass sound (to cut through a large group of fiddlers at old-time jams)."

That's not a sound that serious and knowledgable OT players are particularly fond of. But that's OK ... they take themselves too seriously and I like to annoy them too.
Although I know that was said in jest, it is interesting that one of the "chunkiest" sounding F5 style mandolins I've built belongs to someone who plays almost exclusively old-time music. There aren't any rules, play what you like!

[Joe F]

Lots of good suggestions here, which are very much appreciated. #There is a local dealer who carries Collings, so that will be a good place to start.

The old-time jams around here are pretty laid-back, so I don't think I'd get into too much trouble with a bluegrass-type mandolin. #More often than not, I'm the only mando player at the jams, and it'd hard to hear myself over all the fiddles and banjos. #In addition, I'm in a new string band that is focusing on old-time as well as country (mainly 1920's Charlie Poole stuff), so it works well there too.

At a small OT jam last night, in fact, Bill Hinckley showed up with a new matte-finish LaPlant F5 that had incredible tone and volume. #It fit in well with the jam, and he even let me try it out on a couple of tunes. #Very, very nice, but also very far out of my price range!

[kjskipper]

Here ya go, Joe. An MT for $1700 popped up in the classifieds. Just copy and paste this into your browser: http://www.mandolincafe.com/cgi-bin/classifieds/classifieds.cgi?search_and_display_db_button=on&db_id=24711&query=retrieval

[Lee]

Karen, has it been that long? You played my OW A5 at my house when Judy was checking out the Deluxe. Of course, the oval grabbed all your attention at the time. We'll hafta "taste" again soon. I'm itching to try the neo-classical. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[JGWoods]

" but I also like the chunky bluegrass sound (to cut through a large group of fiddlers at old-time jams)."

That's not a sound that serious and knowledgable OT players are particularly fond of. But that's OK ... they take themselves too seriously and I like to annoy them too. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Curt
Yup- my Rigel Jethro gets the occasional odd look from fiddlers and clawhammerers, but I can hear it and it's not toooo bluegrassy.
I don't play it to annoy my fellow pickers, but I don't like being lost in the din when things get crowded.

Overall I think maple/f holes is a more versatile instrument, and I have 3 oval holes to compare things.

[otterly2k]

Karen, has it been that long? You played my OW A5 at my house when Judy was checking out the Deluxe. Of course, the oval grabbed all your attention at the time. We'll hafta "taste" again soon. I'm itching to try the neo-classical.

Yup... it's been that long, and I forgot about that A5. I was too busy loving the oval, I guess... which inspired me to get one when I saw a good deal on ebay... played that for a while before I jumped on the Neoclassical and sold the OW oval. I wish I could have kept both... both awesome instruments. I'd been enamored of the Phoenix Neoclassical since well before that visit to your place... just didn't expect to be able to afford one. I don't regret the swap, as I"m really enjoying the Phoenix. Feel privileged to have experience with both.

[acousticphd]

Joe,

You're almost unlimited for a great A style for that kind of money. Another thing you might really consider is 2 x $1250, instead of 1 x $2500. The $1250 will get you almost any Gibson A or A1 that can be found (plus something left over), and the other $1250 could get you any number of used nice f-hole A styles (Flatiron, Gibson A9, Ratliff, Ratcliff, who knows).

[Eric F.]

Somebody could get an amazing deal on the Arches in the classifieds. It's been up there twice before and is now at a ridiculously low price. Chris' last posted price was $2800, and I think that was a bargain. If I did not have an ongoing love affair with Arches blonde A No. 9, I'd snap up No. 10. BTW, for anyone thinking No. 10 must be very early and therefore suspect, my No. 9 was actually Chris' 33rd or 37th or 30-somethingth mandolin.

[mikeyes]

If you are going to play in a band, I recommend the F hole instrument. I don't think that the OT police will fret too much since a lot of OT bands play F hole instruments as they are able to cut through the band and be heard.

Besides, what you do with the instrument is much more important than the type of mandolin you have and in order to be heard you need a loud instrument that you won't have to beat to death to be part of the band.

If you are miked individually and like the tone of an oval or round hole instrument, then by all means get one, but you will find that as a rule F hole mandolins are more consistent and have a wider dynamic range, features that are important in playing in a band

I have played a number of Collings MT and they have been consistently good. I am not a big fan of the sound (being a diehard Gibson fan) but they are well made, sound great, and are priced right with good resale value. Gibsons tend to be less consistent but have a better sound when they are on.

A Randy Wood A40/A-5 conversion just went for $1750 on ebay. A tremendous bargain of the kind you can find if you look hard enough. It seems to becoming a buyer's market right now.

[Cheryl Watson]

Joe, if you want to upgrade right away, and if I were you, I'd buy a used A model. Decide on what type of neck you prefer--radiused/flat and full/smaller/round/V'd profile neck.

Collings if you like the modern sound; Old Wave, Glenn, Vessel, Stiver, if you like the classic sound. Go for tone , response, playability and structural integrity over looks because you may want to upgrade again and then the A-model can be your backup mandolin.

When you upgrade again later, you can buy used again or have one built-maybe an F-style.

There is an Old Wave A-style f-hole over at Buffalo Brothers right now that is far less than your budget and I'll bet it is a fine sounding/playing mando.

Cheryl http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[atetone]

For your price of $2500 there are a multitude of great options in an A style F-hole mandolin, especially in the pre-owned catagory.
The problem is in deciding which one to go for.
I wish I had the ultimate word for you on that but I don't.
Lots of good suggestions have been made but if at all possible you should try to get to some place where you can try out some mandolins just to help you narrow down just what features you like and which ones you don't.
Playability and comfort are becoming the most important criteria in any of my new purchases.
In that regard the most comfortable and playable mando I have is a Phoenix, followed by an Old Wave oval.
Take your time,,, you have a real good chance to get a very nice mando at that price point.

[jasona]

This one looks nice. (http://www.mandolincafe.com/cgi-bin/classifieds/classifieds.cgi) But I am biased.

Personally, I'd snatch up that Arches A5.

[bassthumper]

my biased two-cents (got one i'm learning on now) the WEBER SPECIAL EDITION CEDAR TOP @ THE MANDOLIN STORE....great sound,bark and loud...came ready to rumble right out of the crate and already like part of the family....and several double-wides less than the SIZEMORE LOAR.....

[Al Bergstein]

my first "expensive" mandolin (expensive for me) was a used Flatiron F. I have to say that since then, I've played dozens and dozens of mandolins, but those 1980s and early 90s Flatirons were very nice sounding instruments for the money. I moved to a Collings F, after playing many many Collings. I had a hard choice between the F and the A, but the F had better "bark". For your sound, it seems as though a nice sounding A would do. Many of the other instruments mentioned here are great as well. Paul Lestock of Arrow makes some great A's, and that J. Condino on the other coast has some really beautiful odd new styles, with sound holes on the top, and beautiful woods, for what seems like reasonable prices.

I have been won over to radius'ed fretboards. I own four instruments now, an old '19 Gibson A, an Arrow with a flat fretboard, the Flatiron with a flat fretboard and the Collings with the radiused board. The Collings plays smoother, hands down. But not everyone can afford one.

The best advice I can give anyone after all this is: Play lots of mandolins in your price range. The one you want will "talk" to you and you'll know. When I bought my Flatiron, I would have bought an A or F. I just wanted a great sounding and great playing instrument. It was all beat up, the guy who owned it must have took it in and out of cold cars to hot rooms. The finish was shattered, but that instrument still puts out a lot of sound, and can play sweet as can be. The thing I don't like about it is it's neck. As I progressed I wanted to play higher up on the fretboard, and it just wasn't a great fretboard for that. But as they say, 'there's no money above the fifth fret'. I don't know if there's much money below it either, but it sure is nice to slide on up for a tremolo high up without any problems. The Collings neck is great for that. But Grisman can do it too on any old instrument he chooses, and Hamilton de H. does it on his Brazilian choro instrument. So what the heck. Go for what fits your style and tunes. Maybe an old A would be the best for your old timey style. Andy Statman seemed to do just fine with his for years. It really is how much you practice and play more than the instrument, though a better instrument, old or new, seems to help.

Good luck, and have fun trying them all out! Keep your checkbook or visa at home till you are sure!

[Joe F]

Thanks again for all the suggestions.

Since posting this topic a week ago, I'm starting to rethink one of my original assumptions. #Apparently, there are some very good up-and-coming builders who are making high-quality F-style instruments in the mid to upper-$2K price range. #Clark, Muth and Poe are a few that I've found, and there are undoubtedly others. #This is going to make the choice even harder than I originally thought -- but really, it is a very nice "problem" to have.

I had a chance to play a Lebeda A this weekend in a jam setting, which helped strengthen my desire for a radiused fretboard.

[Al Bergstein]

Lebeda is a fabulous builder for a great price. I highly recommend his work.

[jasona]

An even less expensive Ratcliff just appeared! (http://mandolincafe.com/cgi-bin/classifieds/classifieds.cgi?search_and_display_db_button=on&results_format=&query=browse) Again, I'm biased, but these things sound great.

[Joe F]

Mandolin update: #When I started my search, I assumed that a good quality F would be out of my financial reach, and began looking at A models.

Well, I was proven wrong. #There are a number of newer builders who are making very nice instruments. #One of them -- Austin Clark of Boise, ID -- contacted me and we began an email conversation about his instruments, including the fact that his F is priced right at my target amount. #In addition, Scott had some positive comments in this thread (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=12;t=44944;hl=austin+clark) .

Since this is going to be a major undertaking for me (I've never paid more than $500 for an instrument in my life), I was a bit reluctant to order an instrument without having a chance to try it out. #Austin graciously offered to send me his mandolin (the one pictured in Scott's thread) to play for a week or so, with my only cost being the return shipping.

Having the instrument in my hands for a week was an absolute joy. #Fit and finish were superb, and the sound just about knocked me out of my chair the first time I hit a chop chord. #I took it to several bluegrass and old-time jams during the week I had it. #I primarily play old time, and found the instrument to have an ideal voice for that kind of music, especially in the midrange. #However, it had enough punch to hold its own in a bluegrass setting. #It was very hard to package it back up for the return trip.

After that, I continued sampling other mandolins, including the Collings MT (which is every bit as good as people say). #In the end, though, I couldn't resist the siren song of that scroll!

Two weeks ago, I sent Austin a deposit for one of his instruments. #Clark F5 #24 will be mine in about 9 months.

[otterly2k]

Congrats, Joe... sounds like you've made the right decision for you... looking forward to pics and a report when the instrument arrives.

[jasona]

Congrats!