Mix a-5: my final review

[John Flynn]

For the benefit of people who have not been following the threads leading up to this one, first a recap how I came to write this: I played a Mix A-5 a while back in a store and felt that it sounded pretty bad and said so in a previous thread here on the Café Message Board. Peter Mix offered to send me another one to try out if I’d write another review. This is that promised review.

While I was waiting on that second instrument to arrive, Peter, Will Kimble and local luthier Joe Mendel figured out that the first A-5 I played had accidentally been shipped with some serious setup problems. Joe fixed those and I got to play that first A-5 again after the setup and it sounded much, much better, which I also reported here. Then, as promised, Peter sent me another instrument to try out. I had it in my care for four days and I played it a lot, including all the settings I usually play in: A bluegrass jam, sitting in with a string band for a couple of tunes at an outdoor performance, playing at church, taking a mando lesson and a lot of playing at home. I posted pictures of the instrument on an earlier thread.

I also had several other mandolin players play it and/or listen to it. These people included a very experienced mando and guitar performer/teacher who was once a factory rep for two major guitar companies, a full-time professional musician who is a bluegrass singer and fiddler who also plays a Gibson mando, and a long standing mandolin recording artist and performer. The players also included three very good amateurs who have respectable mando collections, including some hand made instruments in the same price range as the Mix, made by luthiers we talk about here all the time. The input of these other players is stirred into this review.

The Mix A-5 seems very well made and the fit and finish are as close to flawless as I’ve seen, although it does have a bit of a “plastic” look to it. I’m a big fan of wood, but the more time I spent with this instrument the more I came to appreciate that the carbon fiber weave has a beauty all its own and I thought the red #“two tone” on this instrument was especially stunning. The playability is excellent. The fat neck takes some getting used to, but I found myself learning to like it a lot. The instrument is very lightweight and the body is extraordinarily resonant. I could really feel the vibration of the back against my body when I played, more than with any mandolin I’ve encountered.

The tone is bright, especially with a new set of EXP74s. This would not be my choice of strings on this instrument, BTW. If I owned a Mix A-5, I think I’d be going to T-I Starks to darken the tone up a bit. The Mix seems to pick up on every nuance of a string and the overtones on the EXPs almost got to be too much. The tone also is also complex and interesting. It’s different than a typical good wooden mando tone, but it has a sound all its own that grew on me the more I played it. It’s a very clear, crisp kind of sound and it projects very well. More so than other instruments, it sounds quite different when you hear someone else playing it than when you are playing it yourself. Some people said it almost has an oval-hole kind of tone. The volume and the chop are very good. It is very consistent across the fretboard, even way up the neck.

It’s only fair that I report the most consistent negative comment I heard from others who played it. It was some version of, “Nice, but not $3,800 worth.” Another comment I got was, “What does the carbon fiber accomplish that wood doesn’t do better? I’m not seeing the answer here.” At first, I completely agreed with those comments, but after having the instrument for a few days, I softened on those issues. By the time I sent it off, I found myself thinking that the Mix is an acquired taste, like some other great “off the beaten path” mandolins. Appropriately, the Rigel G-110 comes to mind as another example. Also, none of us like to admit we are afraid of change, but the Mix may just be too far on the cutting edge for many people to accept.

In summary, there is a lot of good to say about the Mix and hardly any negatives. At the same time, it may lack the superlatives that some might expect from a $3,800 mandolin. The following things are very, very subjective, I admit, but IMHO, it does not have the very best chop you can get for that price, or most the volume or the best tone, or the best looks or the best playability. But what I think it does have is a consistent list of “very good” characteristics for the price in every one of those categories, and I think that is impressive. I have heard worse in that price range.

I highly recommend the Mix A-5 to anyone for whom price is not a big issue and who wants to get in on the cutting edge of technology, really needs a weather-resistant instrument and/or is looking for a new and different mandolin tone to experiment with. But I also think it is worthy of possible consideration as an “only” or “main” mandolin, up against others near its price. However, that would be a matter of personal preference and clearly not be a choice for everyone. I would recommend spending some time with a Mix before making that decision. It is an instrument that will either grow on you, or it won’t.

[Lee]

Wow, I wish more people here would take the time to compose and post seven parapgraph reviews of their mandolins. Good work!

[Perry]

as a Mix owner I feel I need to chime in on a few points:

1) the price includes an installed Schertler which is an expensive pick-up

2) Mando Johnny's review above does not address a significant benefit of the Mix and that is it's plugged-in sound. As mentioned in the previous threads personally I find the carbon fiber soundboard and the Schertler produce a toneful synergy or "mix" if you will. The best plugged in sound I've gotten.

3) the tuning stability of the instrument deserves repeated mention

4) if you like to whomp on your mando sometimes then you will also like the CF material as it doesn't give up the ghost as easily as some wooden mandos in a similar price range

As an aside I put some Monels on mine and the "dead" nature of those strings really helped the overtone issue mentioned by Mando Johnny.

I'll have mine at GreyFox and will be glad to let anybody take a spin.

[Don Christy]

THanks for the great and IMO fair review MJ. I was one of the players fortunate enough to play the Mix while it was in St. Louis.

I'm a fan of high tech items generally, and carbon fiber specifically (my Ducati motorcylce has several cf parts). So while I love wood, I would not in any way be predisposed to not like a new material.

So I thought the Mix was beautiful. The tone was not quite what I prefer in a mando for bluegrass though. I'll be the first to admit that it's a very subjective statement and it may grow on me with more than 10 minutes of playing. If I had a bigger mandolin budget, I would have one in the stable. But as it is, the price is a little steep for me as I would need to have additional mandos to provide the tone I prefer.
Don

PS: kudos to Peter Mix for sending this mando to John and being such a good participant in the mando community.

[John Flynn]

Lee: Thanks

Perry: All good points. I should mention, though, that the "red" Mix I reported on did not have a pickup. The first one I played did have a pickup and I got to play it through a Schertler "David" amp and the tone was very accurate. What you heard acoustically is what came out of the amp, good and bad. Also, While I agree the tuning stability is very good, I did not find it to be as unshakable as some have reported previously. It did take some re-tuning. I put the tuning stability on a par with my Rigel, which is very good, but not some new plateau.

[Perry]

I should mention that I have Waverly's on my Mix.

[John Flynn]

Cool. The "red" Mix I reviewed has Waverlys also. Nice tuners!

[JeffD]

They sure do look cool.

[Ted Eschliman]

Sneak peak at the New-MAD F5 (http://jazzmando.com/new/archives/000591.shtml) debuting at Summer NAMM next week. (Yum!)

[JEStanek]

Darth-5!

That's a sleek wicked looking F-5. Thanks, Ted.

Jamie

[bikebum]

I appreciated reading what I consider to be an objective review. A significant (to me) point that you mentioned is the feeling of vibration from the instrument. I personally like and want that tactile feedback. My Eastman 514, Gibson A9 and Rigel Q95 all have very good qualities but they don't provide the amount of 'body vibration' I'm wanting.

Jerry

[Daniel Nestlerode]

Sneak peak at the New-MAD F5 (http://jazzmando.com/new/archives/000591.shtml) debuting at Summer NAMM next week. (Yum!)
EEE-Yow, MAS attack! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

I just bought a Rainsong carbon fiber guitar. Now I'm going to need a New MAD F5!

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Daniel

[mythicfish]

I have not heard or played one of these.
Here's the "but"... Like Dr Johnsons "dancing dog", perhaps we don't need to compare this mandolin to current standards of
"traditional" excellence, but marvel at its ability to perform at all. More importantly, Mr. Mix seems to have taken the lessons learned at Rigel and has created a new business model. The cost of actual production must be significantly lower than those
instruments produced under the Rigel marque. If I'm wrong on this assessment, I stand corrected.

[jim_n_virginia]

AWWWW MJ I was waiting for you to rip into the Mix A-5 like a pitbull into Taco Bell buritto! #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Are you sure you didn't soften your thinking about the Mix A-5 because Peter was so nice to send you a mandolin to play? Subconsciously maybe?

Anyway I have been interested in this project since I first heard about it and since I have played CF violins and guitars along with your review I can almost hear what a CF mandolin would sound like. As soon as you said "almost oval hole sounding" I could imagine it. With that said, I am very interested in a CF F-5 mandolin. I really like the way they look and I'm pretty sure I would like their sound (but of course will play one before I ever buy one) but I gotta be honest here.

The prices are what keeping me from sending in my deposit. I am told that the F-5's are going to be around $6,000.00
You can get a LOT of mandolin now a days for $6K! I know that making the prototype of anything is pretty expensive. Heck a Kimble mandolin is top shelf so it stands to reason for some of the high cost.

Maybe I don't quite understand the whole process but once Will makes the model and the mold is made of that model isn't it a matter of just filling that mold after that and presto you have a mandolin? I know I am over simplifying the process and there is a lot of hand work after the intial pressing of the body and all but maybe after the process gets going smoothly for a while the prices will go down. YEAH right! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I have talked to MORE than one mandolin players that told me if the prices for the F-5 were in the 2-3K range they'd buy one in a minute including me! I'd still like to try one out and I still feel strangely drawn to one but at these prices I'm going to have to wait and save or sell off some of my other instruments to get one and I'm not willing to do that yet.

MJ thanks for the review it was very informative. And Peter if you are reading this will you send me one of each to try out? I think I will need probably a year to completely make up my mind. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[PseudoCelt]

Maybe I don't quite understand the whole process but once Will makes the model and the mold is made of that model isn't it a matter of just filling that mold after that and presto you have a mandolin? I know I am over simplifying the process and there is a lot of hand work after the intial pressing of the body and all but maybe after the process gets going smoothly for a while the prices will go down. YEAH right! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
My understanding of the process is that each of the layers of carbon fiber cloth has to be applied to the mold by hand, making sure the orientation of the weave is correct, there are no bubbles, etc. If the thickness of the top and back changes, it is likely that some parts need more layers than others. So there is quite a lot of hand work just molding the parts of the body, before the finishing.

I'm sure it is rather more complicated than most of us realise.

Patrick

[John Flynn]

AWWWW MJ I was waiting for you to rip into the Mix A-5 like a pitbull into Taco Bell buritto! Are you sure you didn't soften your thinking about the Mix A-5 because Peter was so nice to send you a mandolin to play? Subconsciously maybe?

Jim: I take your comment as good-natured ribbing, but it raises a point I would like to make in general, not directed at you. One thing I learned through this experience is that you can't win reviewing anything here! If you pan something, people say you are "bashing" or didn't take all the factors into account, or they imply you're an idiot, or whatever. If you praise something, it's because you're biased for some other reason. It always amazes me that people can't just say that they disagree and that their opinion or experience is different. People like that must have little confidence in their own opinions, because they seem to need to bolster their opinions by questioning the competence of the person they disagree with. It's like the old formula for debates, "If the facts are not on your side, attack your opponent!"

It's OK. I was a magazine editor and writer for three years in a situation where no matter what we published, parts of the audience, sometimes important, influential parts of the audience, were bound to get upset. I'm used to it and I take it in stride.

To answer your question, though, I would not kiss any builder's b-tt just because they lent me a mandolin for four days. Now if a builder GAVE me a mandolin, well that might be a different story, LOL! Seriously though, I edited that review several times and it swung from more positive to more negative each time. In the end what I wanted was balance. I wanted to give my fellow Cafe' members "news they could use" based on my four day try-out, with as little bias I might have one way or another.

[Ted Eschliman]

One thing I learned through this experience is that you can't win reviewing anything here!
John, more this is more "truth than poetry." Something human in us always seeks balance. We like to build up our heros, then tear them down.

[John Flynn]

John, more this is more "truth than poetry." Something human in us always seeks balance. We like to build up our heros, then tear them down.

Ted: I am intrigued by your comment, but I'm not sure I fully understand it in this context. I would be interested in your saying more about it.

[Ted Eschliman]

Think the successful Dallas Cowboys football (under Tom Landry) in the 80s. The team everybody loved to hate. There's a natural human instinct to "balance" what we consider popular. We can never hold something in esteem too long; it's just not fair. There will always be a negative contingency out there to voice that sentiment.

[John Flynn]

I am still puzzled. I guess I could see what you're saying if we were talking about Gibson. But no one has held Mix in esteem too long. They are brand new!

[Will Kimble]

Hi John,

I appreciate your thoughtful review, thanks for taking the time to share with us. #

Will Kimble

[ShaneJ]

Hate the Tom Landry Cowboys?!! Blasphemy!!! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Now, the various incarnations of the Jerry Jones Cowboys....I can see some of that.

[violmando]

I met Peter Mix and his mandos at AMGuSS a month ago and I was VERY impressed. As a school teacher, they are out of my price range right now, but I'm trying to save for the L-5 based mandocello he's planning because I see the main reason I'd want one is to use it as an outdoor/travel instrument to save my Larson/Stahl mandocello. Peter explained that the process of making them after the mold involved many layers done by hand so it IS rather labor intensive, many hours per mando, altho' they are working on getting things done easier and quicker. I think you get what you pay for, and if you want an instrument for these kind of gigs, jams, go for it. They ARE beautiful instruments and I liked the sound and the finish. I'd rather spend that much on this kind of "new" instrument to save a vintage one. That's my take on it, but to each their own, right? I don't understand why some folks spend as much as they do on some of the newer "unknowns" when they could buy a vintage, but that's MY opinion, not theirs....we all feel the way we do. Yvonne in Ohio.

[Jim Rowland]

I've had some experience laying up plastic cloth materials to create special shapes. In my case it was resin impregnated fiberglass to make parts for the old Jupiter and Mercury missles. Not only did we have to deal with special shapes and varying thicknesses,(more or fewer laminates)there were additional processes...vacuum bagging and autoclaving or heated press....then there was prolonged heat seasoning and machining (very dirty and,in my case,itchy)work. Then,parts needed to be assembled. Little of this may apply to the Mix process,but I'm sure that it is demanding and time consuming work. Not like making a lost wax form and pouring the stuff in or spin casting or injection molding. A little drape molding may be used..I dunno.
Jim

[Bob DeVellis]

I think Johnny's review is fair and informative. Frankly, I tend to dismiss the types of reviews that find anything flawless because they make me suspect that the writer has some affinity for the thing they're reviewing that may hamper their ability to be discerning. Based on Johnny's review, I'd very much like to give a Mix a try sometime. The review also highlighted specific features to which I'd pay special attention to see how I personally felt about them. From afar, I see the Mix as having some special attributes (great looks, lightness, durability, relative immunity to weather, ...) in addition to many of the qualities one expects from a nice mandolin (tone, volume, playability, ...). I would assume that getting some of the advantages well might entail some small compromises in other attributes, as Johnny's review suggests might be the case. Frankly, I've never met the mandolin that didn't entail trade-offs and suspect, respectfully, that those who see no trade-offs in a particular instrument are pretty much imprinted on that specific sound as their personal standard.

So, thanks, Johnny, for the clear and objective assessment. And thanks, Peter and Will, for giving us mandolin nuts another intriguing option to consider.

[MandoSquirrel]

Mando Johnny:

I think that having your three reviews of the two Mix mandos makes for one of the Best instrument review experiences in my history of reading instrument reviews(think 35+ years). the fact that you gave an honest, consumer "test drive" opinion, & were willing to give a follow up review post setup, that gave another honest opinion allowing for a faulty sample, followed by another honest opinion of another sample, leaves me believing you've given us a reviewing experience that we rarely recieve. Thanks loads. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[JEStanek]

Good review John and thanks for sticking with your opinions throughout. I'm sure there are many of us who would like to see the New MAD company succeed. I feel given your initial review, their proactive response and your follow up, you've actually provided them a great service. Start up glitches are inevitable, a good response and lessons learned is another. I feel I know the new MAD much better these 3 threads later.

Thanks,
Jamie

[TonyP]

Bravo John. It took guts to say what you did in the first post as we are all pulling for the NewMad team. What happened next was really impressive. Between Peter and Will there was the kind of customer response that is literally "to die for". It's one thing to want an instrument, or anything for that matter. It's another to have support. Too many things today are "vapor". It's an idea, and units are being sold before they are even off the drawing board or any support yet. Not in this instance. It was neat to see the development and the care that was taken to get the idea to be real. But then to see something go kinda shwangle and instead of finger pointing and name calling, even handed, cool heads, say "now lets take a look at this". To me, that speaks volumes.

And top this off with a real effort on your part John to see this through, in a fishbowl, and to give viewpoints from a panel. It's what I like most about the community we have here.

There is resistance to change, and a radical leap like the NewMad just begs to be targeted. But when you watch the demise of one successful experiment(Rigel), only to rise from the ashes and take off in another direction, all on the web, you have to be amazed. My hats off to all of you for a look into something I'd never been witness to otherwise.

[mythicfish]

As appealing as the On-Demand-Mand-O-Lin seems to be, I feel that it could have easilly been designed as a multi-use product including all or any of the following conveniences: Digital audio recorder, cel phone, Popeil Pocket Fisherman, and/or personal air conditioner.

Curt

[epicentre]

Read the review. Pretty thorough. Thanks.

Just finished listening to Peter Mix play "Lord Inchiquin" on the New Millenium A4.

If I had the money........................... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

SWEET tone. Beautiful.

Epi. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

[mythicfish]

Why not just wait a few years for a used one. By then it will have "opened up"

Curt

[grassrootphilosopher]

Mando Johnny,

after first reading your (first) review about the Mix A 5 I felt sort of torn between opinions because on the one hand I guessed that you´d be branded by the public as being biased and on the other hand I cherished the bold step out to unfavorably review an instrument built by a reputable maker (keeping in mind the Rigel involvment).

After reading this final review I feel well informed. I like the review especially because of the absence of hyperboles.

Cudos Mando Johnny and for everyone else, lets hear your experiences with your instruments (or the ones you´ve picked) the same as in this thread.