Do you tap?

[Bernie Daniel]

I've been in Cape Breton (Nova Scotia) these last two weeks listening to the great fiddlers here. #Most of you probably already know that the Cape Breton fiddle style is unique -- look up Buddy MacMaster or Jerry Holland on YouTube if you want examples. #

Cape Breton fiddle has several hallmarks including the driving style, the tempo changes from marches to reels, the ornate accompaniment, and the "cuts" (which are really triplets the fiddlers bows-in to embellish the sound).

But another key characteristic of the Cape Breton fiddle tradition is the pounding (driving) foot --or feet--of the fiddler in time to the music -- the accompanist(s) generally taps his/her foot as well -- everyone in sync. to the beat. #

This foot stamping acts like a giant metronome and helps to keep all the players together. #

I do not believe that I see many bluegrass players foot tapping like that and also most mandolin players (regardless of the music) and even when playing while seated don't seem to tap - or usually do not (this is my impression).

Of course with the mandolin you have a kind of built-in metronome in the alternating pick motion.

I have tried playing some fiddle tunes by tapping like these fiddlers up here do but seems to be distracting rather than useful.

My #foot wants to follow the pick and pound out the eight notes and sixteenth notes instead of making a steady four beats per measure (if in 4/4 for example). #If I work at it I can indeed get a steady foot tap while playing but it really does not seem to provide any benefit to me.

I wonder if other mandolin players have experimented with this? #If so, does it help you?

[Bertram Henze]

Sounds all familiar to me. Try and play with a real metronome - is it easy, or does the metronome seem to have a weird mind of it's own?

I could not tap my foot for the very sync reasons described above, and then found out it was me that was out of time against the real metronome. I then practised with a metronome, and found it possible to keep up tapping my foot with the metronome. After I gained some speed control I thought it would be nice to have my foot as a built-in metronome, tried tapping without the real metronome and found that the better my timing is, the easier the tapping seems to be. This goes along with a change of mental position - instead of "squatting inside the music", you become able to listen to your own playing from the outside, like the audience does, and notice and counteract time problems at once.

Bertram

[John Flynn]

Two anecdotes that may be slightly off topic, but they are related to the topic.

The first: Here in the Midwest, there is a tradition of step dancing, sometimes incorrectly associated with bluegrass "clogging" or Irish step dancing, although it is quite different from either of those. A local guy, Rush McCallister, put out a CD called "Rush McCallister: On the Feet!" where he provided percussion by step dancing along with a backup band playing tunes. Curtis Buckhannon played mando in that backup band, BTW, and did some great work on it. Anyhow, when step dancers provide percussion like that, they often dance on a plywood board, about 3' square. that has shims on the edges. The shims allow the board to flex and hit the floor when they dance making a loud percussive sound. I have CDs of fiddlers and others using a smaller version of the device to provide percussion through foot tapping, but I have not actually seen one. I know who I can ask about it, though.

Second anecdote that is slightly off-topic, related: Lucy Randall is a great Irish bodhran player based in England. She has a booklet/CD out called "The Goatwhackers Guide to Rhythm." I recommend it for any instrumentalist, not just bodhran players. In it, she has directed foot-tapping exercises you can do for improving rhythm. You can even do these exercises just sitting in a chair with no music, like at work. There's a way to irritate your co-workers!

[mandocrucian]

In the final issue, #27, of The Mandocrucian's Digest

#27 - ANDY IRVINE interview (w/"Ramblin' Robin"), Beethoven's "Sonatine in Cm" arranged for 2 mandolins, Solo Mandolin w/Radim Zenkl (Rudy Cipolla's "Here And There", Bluegrass w/John Baldry (more closed position licks), <span style='color:red'>Shifting exercises on one string</span>, Mandos From Denmark ("Ikke Hurtig", reijlander), Remembering Bill Monroe w/2 Monroe-style tunes by Buddy Merriam ("Monroe Special", "Outerbridge Crossing"), <span style='color:red'>Introduction to foot percussion</span>, Listening survey for 1995/6, Playing in schools, A revolutionary letter to artists, 10-tone equal-tempered scale, record and book reviews.

see catalog link for ordering info

Niles Hokkanen

[Tom C]

I guess foot stompin may have to do with the music. Some friends I play with play jug band and blues. The foot stompin sounds terrible on recordings.

[harwilli55]

Check out anything by La Bottine Souriante ....foot tapping extrodinaire's !!!

La Bottine Souriante (http://www.bottinesouriante.com/intro.php)

Also if you can put your hands on LOUIS BOUDREAULT: OLD TIME FIDDLER OF CHICOUTIMI, QUEBEC. Simply one of the best of the old style fiddle/foot music. Recorded in 1977. The CD can be found <span style='color:blue'>here</span> (http://www.voyagerrecords.com/cd_cass.htm#R322).

Harlan

[mandocrucian]

You need to try and see The Human Hambone (http://www.linktv.org/programs/hambone) which has been airing on LinkTV, which is carried on both DirecTV and Dish Network. Next set of airings for this is:

Thursday, July 12th 08:00 pm EST
Friday, July 13th 02:00 am EST
Friday, July 13th 08:00 am EST
Friday, July 13th 02:00 pm EST

There's a whole variety of ways to approach foot percussion:
- the Quebec and Cape Breton fiddle music approach
- John Lee Hooker footstomp
- tap dance (amazing sax player on the above doc who simultaneously taps sitting down)
- black "steppin'" (see the movie Stomp The Yard)
- drumkit grooves

I approach it mostly from the drum-kit direction. Most musicians don't have an inkling about how much even a simple foot percussion groove can enhance everything, and liberate you do play things solo that would otherwise fall apart.

A article/description of my one-footed drum-kit was featured in VOLUME 13 #4, JUNE 1998 of EXPERIMENTAL MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS magazine.


"The One-Footed Drum Kit": Niles Hokkanen. 6 pages; 13 photos.
The author describes what led him to using midi bass-pedals and drums to accompany his mandolin, leading to a one-person band. He describes in great detail the construction of his unique foot pedals, which allows the player to play an entire battery of drums and cymbals with one foot alone.

Articles are not posted online, but back issues (http://www.windworld.com/back_issues/bi13-14.htm) are available either on CD-Rom or in print (by yearly volume)
ordering info/prices (http://www.windworld.com/products/catalog.htm#backissues)

Niles H

[Bernie Daniel]

TomC: The foot stompin sounds terrible on recordings.

Well Tom before you to too far with that thought I suggest you listen to some Cape Breton fiddling or a recording of the great button accordian player from Newfoundland --Bernard Felix.

One fast set of reels from Bernie both shoes with metal plates pounding away on a hardwood platform in time with more accordian notes then you can imagine will give you another perspective I think #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

His CD "A song for my mother Mary" is just outstanding -- and to think the man had three of his fingers cut off in an industrial accident - two were reattached but even these are anything but straight -- but that does not stop Bernie from being just awesome.

[Mandolution]

Don't forget John Hartford's foot-tapping shuffle. He used a 4x8 shhet of plywood with a piano pickup attached!

[fiddle5]

Metis music of western Canada is similar with the foot tapping. Just like salt and pepper, you won't find one without the other. Its all stepping music, and incidentally, anyone who enters a Metis music contest will know that if they don't tap, they'll loose points.

[Bernie Daniel]

Mandolution: Don't forget John Hartford's foot-tapping shuffle. #He used a 4x8 shhet of plywood with a piano pickup attached!

Hey thanks I had forgotten about John Harford's tapping as an example. Of course he did more of a dance in time with the tune.

It seems more natural with a fiddle as your bowing is not a constant back forth with every note like you have to do with a pick. #Of course I really do not fiddle much and when I do I am sure my bowing is totally wrong.

I have trendency to tap to the motion of the pick -- instead of tapping out a steady constant beat.

[JeffD]

When I play by myself, or when I am leading in a jam or small group, I tend to tap my foot, or or less unconsciously. When someone else is clearly the lead I deliberately do not tap, as I try to fit the rythem of the lead instrument.

In large groups I seldome tap, - there is no point being the only one in time.

Its rarely an audible tap, usually just a flexing of my ankle which raises my toe or heel or both just a little.

[mandocrucian]

Ramblin' Gamblin' Man (Bob Seger System) drum groove for two feet:

<span style='font-family:courier'>L=[&#124;:=t===t====t===t===&#124;t===t====t===t====:&#124;] (crash cymbal)
R=[&#124;:=H=H=T====H=H=T=H=&#124;==H=T====H=H=T====:&#124;] #(H/heel = Bass drum; T/toe = snare)
......&#124;_&#124; &#124; # #&#124;_&#124;_&#124;_&#124; #&#124;_&#124; &#124; # #&#124;_&#124; &#124;
......1 # 2 # #3 # 4 # #1 # 2 # #3 # 4</span>

You can reverse the parts if you wish and do the kick/snare pattern with the left foot and the steady 4ths on crash cymbal with the right. Put something metallic under the "crash cymbal" foot.


Now see if you can keep the feet going while you sing the lyrics. #not losing that little syncopation on the kick drum is gonna drive you crazy.
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

Yeah, I'm gonna tell my tale come on,
Come on, give a listen

Cause I was born lonely down by the riverside
Learned to spin fortune wheels, and throw dice
And I was just thirteen when I had to leave home
Knew i couldn't stick around, I had to roam
Ain't good looking, but you know I ain't shy
Ain't afraid to look it girl, right in the eye
So if you need some lovin, and you need it right away
Take a little time out, and maybe I'll stay

But I got to ramble (ramblin' man)
Oh I got to gamble (gamblin' man)
Got to got to ramble (ramblin' man)
I was born a ramblin' gamblin' man

Yeah yeah yeah
Yeah alright here we go now now
I'm out of money, you sho' gone to need some
I ain't around to love you now, and I gotta run
Gotta keep moving, never gonna slow down
You can have your funky world, see you 'round

And when you can get that together - it's time to either put the organ riff, or the bass line on the mando.

NH

[Jack Roberts]

My fiddle teacher told me not to tap. He said I do well enough without it. But I like to tap, especially when I play with guitar players who can't seem to keep rhythm.

[Adrian W.]

After listening to it for a while, it's hard to imagine Cape Breton style-fiddling (Irish, Scottish, or Acadian), without the foot stomp. Lots of recordings down here , on the musician credits, you'll see so and so credited with 'feet'.

[swampy]

Heck yeah I tap. I can't help but do it and I think it keeps me honest.

A lot of times when I play with beginners (not that I'm much better) I notice that they are so committed to playing every single note in the phrase that they don't pay as much attention to the rhythm or beat. They'll play an extra beat or two just to be sure and complete the phrase, or worse they'll slow down when they get to a tricky section and then speed back up when they return to playing rhythm. I've been involved with numerous trainwrecks because of this. A friend of mine with a master's in jazz would always tell me the most important thing is to keep the tune going. If this means omitting a note or two, oh well.

Its a bit tricky when learning a complex new tune, but I feel that in the long run it makes the tune a little more solid. That's not to say I'm a fan of rigid musicians. A little ebb and flow is OK provided everyone is following along.

The most important thing IMHO is to lock into the bass player and to try and listen to the whole sound of the band.

[Tom C]

Quote by me:
"I guess foot stompin may have to do with the music."

I should have said "the type of music"

[Mandobar]

keith murphy who sometimes plays with the contradance band "wild asparagus" plays and performs on mandolin accompanied by "foot percussion". he taught us a bit of it at the mando festival in concord, nh this past march. it is not as easy to do as it looks. watching him perform is really amazing.

[Bernie Daniel]

Mandobar: #it is not as easy to do as it looks.

I agree! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[JeffD]

Putting the cart before the horse, (or the sandwich before the soup as my buddy says), if your own playing can't compel your own foot to at least tap - how you gonna get the whole audience up and on their feet?

[Bernie Daniel]

JeffD: Putting the cart before the horse, (or the sandwich before the soup as my buddy says), if your own playing can't compel your own foot to at least tap - how you gonna get the whole audience up and on their feet?


To be honest that statement does not compute to me Jeff. #

The problem for a picker with tapping and playing is a function of the player's mind having to organize two motor functions at once. #

Motion of the pick deals with quarter, eight and sixteenth notes while the foot taps our a steady number of beats per measure.

Some players find the foot tapping not helpful for their playing -- others find it helpful. #But I think it is a learned thing and after time can help -- though at first is is a distraction

That has nothing to do with the collective minds of some other people sitting/listening in the audience does it? #

They can tap and listen easily enough I guess -- most folks can anyway.

That is lot different than playing while tapping I think.

[JeffD]

That is lot different than playing while tapping I think.
Good thought.

I wonder though. I started with music way back in summer band in what, fifth grade or something. So I guess I learned to tap then, and have been tapping for a long time. For me it is such an automatic experience that tapping to keep the beat and tapping in response to the beat feel like the same thing - I just naturally thought they were the same impulse.

Perhaps not.

[Perry]

they don't pay as much attention to the rhythm or beat. They'll play an extra beat or two just to be sure and complete the phrase, or worse they'll slow down when they get to a tricky section and then speed back up when they return to playing rhythm.

Well put; groove is everything. Too many players don't practice with a metronome. If they did the extra beat or semi-beat that often gets thrown in becomes obvious.

To answer the original question. Personally I always foot tap when I play. Quarter notes. To set my metronome to the right speed I'll play the tune and match the clicks to my foot then let the metronome be the boss.

On waltzes I tap faster. I guess I'm tapping out 8th notes.

I like playing to my metrome so much so that sometimes it's harder to play without one. The metronome tells me when I'm dragging or more often pushing http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Often thought about getting one of those porchboards (http://www.porchboard.com/Home.html)

[Mandobar]

i think we are talking about two different things. there is tapping your foot (which i can tell you in most classical circles as well as conservatories is a big NO NO- i had an instructor stand on my foot one day at quintet practice).

and then there is clogging- which the cape breton players do. i have to say, the clogging does get the crowd going and keith murphy is really an excellent player. it does take a lot of physical stamina though.

[mounmon]

How about tap-dancing and saxophone? I was wandering around the Oregon Country Fair and came across this guy:

Shoehorn (http://www.shoehornmusic.com/bio.html)

[Adrian W.]

Mandobar: the Cape Breton players do two different things.....almost all the fiddlers (and the people in the audience) will get a heavy foot stomp going especially on the 4/4 stuff, reels etc (feels good right after a strathspey)....there are a few in the younger generation like Natalie MacMaster who will also step-dance while playing, but not all or even most. Clogging and step-dancing are related but different....I come from clogging country (Gatineau hills in West Quebec), and live i step-dancing country (Cape Breton).

I had thought this thread was about keeping time with a heavy left foot or whatever....maybe I was wrong about that, and people were talking about dancing.