View Full Version : Another Loar at Elderly
Scotti Adams
May-21-2004, 6:30am
..it may be a real looker, virzi and all....but $130,000....thats just plain ridiculus....thats my opinion....hell..with the price of gas who could even afford to go get it http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif .....This Loar price thing is gettin way outta hand...dont ya think?
ethanopia
May-21-2004, 6:39am
130k and that doesn't even get you an original pickguard!
I want to be like Mike...Marshall that is. I think his is Feb 18th as is Tom Rozums....
onlyagibsonisgoodenuff
May-21-2004, 6:42am
And I only have three credit cards saved up. Not quite enough. I figure this one will take at least twelve or so cards!
I actually think Loars, within their historical context, are undervalued. I really believe they'll hit $250,000 within a couple of years.
http://www.elderly.com/vintage/items/90U-4005.htm
There in now one in the classifieds for $150,000!
Scotti Adams
May-21-2004, 8:02am
..yep..thats my buds Chris Stanley..that thing is a Hoss...and a Fern at that..
Scott Tichenor
May-21-2004, 8:20am
The fern will likely go at that price is my guess. There's someone who has been advertising they'll pay that. Apparently this was heard and is being tested.
futrconslr
May-21-2004, 8:27am
[/QUOTE]I actually think Loars, within their historical context, are undervalued. I really believe they'll hit $250,000 within a couple of years.
What historical context would that be? Monroe? or are you refering to something else?
Scott Tichenor
May-21-2004, 8:29am
I believe that's code for "I own one". Just having fun. Don't throw rocks.
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
Spruce
May-21-2004, 9:07am
"What historical context would that be? #Monroe? or are you refering to something else? "
The historical (hysterical?) context would be the prices that are commonly paid for fine violins, and the inflation in those prices that have occured in the past 25-30 years...
It seems that 100K is a real wobble-point...
If someone can afford 100K for something special, then 250K is not out of the question...
But of course, 100K doesn't really buy you something really special in the world of violins anymore...
Scott: I don't own a Loar. I've played many over the years and I lust for one. I'll settle for my Dude and Duff for the time being.
Historical context: Well, it would seem repetitive to explain what I mean. Look at all the posts regarding the Loar and its history, including Monroe. This is not a new thought.
cutbait2
May-21-2004, 10:00am
the sky is limit, as long as someone thinks someone else will pay even more, however as i've said on another recent thread i'm thinking that, in terms of finding a particular tone, a Loar is no longer necessary, as evidenced by the top pickers who haven't chosen to own or even to borrow one to record, see O'Brien, Thile, McCoury, Sam B, Steffy and the list goes on therefore those investing are doing so for the aura or speculating. which is fine, but its not like all the great tone is being locked up somewhere, lots of equally great instruments out there........
ethanopia
May-21-2004, 10:45am
I like the idea that 100,000 is a break point, I think I agree that to those who are now the major stake holders in the value of Loars, that the difference between 100 and 200 k is theory more than practice. So the price can certainly go up.
By that I mean if you have 100k to plunk down whos to say that you won't plunk 200k? Because in all likely hood that person isn't plunking down thier life savings for the dream Loar or anyting it's more like what they won in vegas last week, or half of thier shares in MClone...
Bob A
May-21-2004, 10:48am
Once the bar has been raised to a given height, you can count on the published price holding at that level. Whether it is sustainable, or has been set by a single individual with deep pockets and an expensive itch, will sooner or later be made clear. It's not uncommon in other areas for sales of comparables to be done behind the scenes, with the actual amount paid known only to buyer and seller.
As you can imagine, at these levels it's no longer about "tone", whatever that is. There's a whole lot of context and emotion involved, and proves the existence of sympathetic magic. (Something once in contact with Big Mon is always in contact with him, on some astral plane or other. A million bucks says it's true.)
sunburst
May-21-2004, 11:07am
130k and that doesn't even get you an original pickguard!
Or even a decent miter in the binding of the replacement!
futrconslr
May-21-2004, 11:17am
[QUOTE]Historical context: Well, it would seem repetitive to explain what I mean. Look at all the posts regarding the Loar and its history, including Monroe. This is not a new thought.
Things are not always as they seem.
futrconslr
May-21-2004, 11:18am
I am not asking what everyone else thinks. Everyone else didnt make the historical context comment. You did. I was looking for your thoughts.
I'm not sure I've ever seen a Gibson mandolin in a museum outside of the Country Music Hall of Fame, and I don't really remember seeing one their either (where is Bill Monroe's mando, anyway..probably vaulted away in a bank)...is there much interest outside of the mandolin playing/building community?
In the big picture, I'm not sure the American mandolin (Gibson) has really established much of an historical context at all, especially since it has only been applied in any sort of widespread manner to a musical form that exists on the fringes of mainstream society. How many times have you heard the question "Is that a little guitar or something?"
I really don't know what I'm talking about, but its fun to pretend I'm smart! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
joshro78
May-21-2004, 11:34am
[QUOTE]I'll settle for my Dude and Duff for the time being.
Settle for a Dude! That's hilarious. You settle for a Kentucky not a Dude.
John Ely
May-21-2004, 11:42am
I'd pay $99,999.99 and not one penny more!
futrconslr
May-21-2004, 11:46am
I think comparing a loar to a Strad violin is a little of a stretch. While to many a loar is the pinnacle of the instrument, is that true outside of bluegrass? I dont know but I suspect probably not. Do any players outside of bluegrass play a loar? I dont know does anyone out there know?
mandodon
May-21-2004, 11:57am
On a trip to Italy probably 6 years ago I took along my F-style beater. I remember a gal on the beach asking me what type of instrument I was playing. When I said it was a mandolin, she laughed.
Important to keep in mind that outside of America, our beloved instrument is for the most part unrecognized as a mandolin.
But this really has nothing to do with the value of a Loar.
mandosage
May-21-2004, 12:06pm
oh yeah? #well how do you like the $150K price in the classifieds?
Charlie Derrington
May-21-2004, 12:48pm
I think the price jump was inevitable. With only so many available, and with more than a few folks with the desire and the means, it had to happen.
Are they worth $150K? Well, apparently so. Will they be worth more in the future? Who knows. Is this just a bubble? Who knows, and furthermore, who cares? Supply and demand will always determine the price of a specific thing, and as much as we might not like the result, things will remain the same.
Remember, there ain't no more of them being made.
Charlie
Keith Wallen
May-21-2004, 12:55pm
I think comparing a loar to a Strad violin is a little of a stretch. #While to many a loar is the pinnacle of the instrument, is that true outside of bluegrass? #I dont know but I suspect probably not. #Do any players outside of bluegrass play a loar? #I dont know does anyone out there know?
I don't know the answer to that but are there many outside of the classical arena that play a Strad?
futrconslr
May-21-2004, 1:27pm
[QUOTE]Are they worth $150K? Well, apparently so. Will they be worth more in the future? Who knows. Is this just a bubble? Who knows, and furthermore, who cares? Supply and demand will always determine the price of a specific thing, and as much as we might not like the result, things will remain the same.
Remember, there ain't no more of them being made.
If I spent 150K I would care if they were worth it or not. I would also care if I were buying an instrument during a "bubble".....especially if what I were buying was supposed to be rare and collectable. They are not making Edsels anymore either. I am sure you can buy one for 150k.
Paul Kotapish
May-21-2004, 1:34pm
Loar and his team were striving to build the ideal mandolin for classical repertoire when they perfected the F-5, but the instrument never seemed to catch on with its intended niche market. I remember an interview in Mandolin World News with classical mandolinist Hugo d'Alton in which he excoriated the F-5--Loars or otherwise--for serious classical music. Most contemporary classical players seem to prefer the round-back instruments in the style of Calace or Embergher, or flatbacks in the Lyon & Healy style. If the classical mandolin repertoire ever achieved the kind of international popularity that bluegrass is currently enjoying, and if there were a widely recognized mandolin idol playing a roundback hatchet, then I suspect you'd see the prices of those instruments rise dramatically, too.
The Loar is an easily recognizable benchmark for excellence that has been hailed by at least three of the most influential mandolinists of the 20th C.: Apollon, Monroe, and Grisman. Their imprimaturs bestowed added value on instruments with pretty high intrinsic value to begin with, and the market has taken care of the rest.
For really inane prices, check out the fees that vintage stock electrics fetch. Original '59 Les Pauls have been known to fetch upwards of $350,000, for example.
Charlie Derrington
May-21-2004, 2:36pm
You may care, Joel..........
But I don't believe that the majority of the folks who purchase these instruments place the value on the dollar aspect. I think they buy them because of what they are..... the pinnacle of mandolins.
Charlie
futrconslr
May-21-2004, 2:43pm
I am having a hard time accepting that the people that buy these instruments because they are the pinnacle would buy them if they didnt expect to get their investment out of them...Charlie....I would think that you, if anyone, would know that most of the guys that buy these instruments are businessmen/women at least at some level. I dont believe for a minute that someone would buy a loar for 150k if they didnt think they could get their money back. I could be wrong but practical experience and general observation of the human condition tell me otherwise. Pull your horns in, I didnt slam Gibson. I think you guys are ok.:D
cutbait2
May-21-2004, 2:55pm
i certainly appreciate the historical value of the Loar to BG music and that some of its affecionado's are well healed enough to push the value to new daily highs, but again this should not necessarily cause any of us of modest means great concern. i attended a recent festival at which many of the top national acts performed. needless to say there was many a fine mando picker on stage and in the campground. the best sounding mando on stage (i thought) was played by Mike of Nothin' Fancy and is made by Mr. Darby Boofer of NC. Darby's price for an nice looking F-5 is up to 2K. I recently bought a Kimble A model for about 2k that's pretty awesome. A young'n in the campground was playing a Doyle Lawson that sounded great. So not to worry, the tone can't be kept in a bottle.
ethanopia
May-21-2004, 3:27pm
I don't think it's just about tone though, it is about having the original one and only. It's like owning a 57 Chevy Bel Air. Today they make good cars that drive better than a 57 chevy and in fact are easier to maintain faster handle better etc etc.
But when you cruise down the street in a 57 Chevy Bel AIr convertible, it is a totally different feeling than driving down the street in a 99 Accord....
But you could own a handfull of 57s for the price of a Loar....but she wouldn't sound nearly as good playing Muleskinner.
While to many a loar is the pinnacle of the instrument, is that true outside of bluegrass? I dont know but I suspect probably not. Do any players outside of bluegrass play a loar? I dont know does anyone out there know?
Personally, I play Irish/Celtic stuff.. and yes, the sound of a Loar is spectacular in that venue. I might have a hard time talking some of my friends into believing that, but I certainly believe it now. The couple of shots I've had on them that were long enough to "get it" (ie get the feel of the instrument and figure out some of the great stuff it lets you do).. well, there's a reason folks were so barmy about them in first place. They are really fine sounding instruments.
However, they do not have sole claim to "killer mandolin tone". The Gilchrists, Nuggets, and many other makers' output are just as wonderful, and in their own unique ways.
Charlie Derrington
May-21-2004, 3:47pm
Ah, the internet.
I wasn't being ugly, Joel (I promise). Inflection is a hard thing to convey on a keyboard. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Charlie
Wonder what those "Derringtons" will be worth in 75 years........
Flowerpot
May-21-2004, 4:12pm
"Remember, there ain't no more of them being made."
"...not to worry, the tone can't be kept in a bottle."
"I don't think it's just about tone though, it is about having the original one and only."
I think y'all have hit on it here. Scarcity will always drive demand. If you combine scarcity, utility, and identity as a status symbol, you've got the recipe for continuing demand. Add to that a growing pool of players, collectors, and investors, and it's pretty sure the price ain't dropping any time soon.
But there's no reason to grouse about anything-- we're living in the golden age of mandolin building. We are smack in the middle of some of the greatest luthiery in history (including Gibson's own output), a perfect time when knowledge and skills are peaking while great quality tonewoods are still available. You don't need $100k, or even $20k, to own a world-class instrument, so jump in there and get tomorrow's collectable now!
sunburst
May-21-2004, 4:33pm
Flowerpot, you are absolutely right! (IMHO)
I see all these "I don't think the Loar tone is suitable for style 'xyz'!" proclamations.
Methinks, as the pinnacle of mandolin design, the Loar tone is suitable for anything and everything. I think Dave Apollon would dang near agree, don't you?
jamman
May-21-2004, 5:10pm
His Dawgness may agree too
mandorado
May-21-2004, 6:57pm
Let me get this straight ... If someone [with a ton of extra money laying around] spends 150k this year on a Loar [one of those little'ol guitars], it could be worth 250k in a couple of years (according to some pretty darn knowledgable folks)?
Hmmm. No wonder they say "the rich get richer, and the poor don't get Loars", or jack, or something like that.
With that kind of appreciation predicted, if you have the money [or the ability loan it from someone], you would be crazy NOT to buy it. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
Brookside
May-21-2004, 7:52pm
All this talk of vintage Les Pauls, Chevys and Loars reminds me of a time capsule of a city where all things American made are vintage. It's a large city about 90 miles south of Miami. (being an American I'll leave it at that) I spent a couple of weeks there 6 years ago. I took in a lot of local music and I recall two mandolin players. (I was not a mandolin enthusiast at the time and knew very little about them) One of the mandolins was a bowlback and probably locally made. The other was a F-style Gibson (I remember noting Gibson on the peghead, didn't know F from A at the time) and almost certainly pre-1959. Could it have been? The fellow playing it would have probably gladly traded me for a shiny new one. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
uncle ken
May-21-2004, 9:35pm
Vintage les pauls seem to go for a lot more than a loar and there are alot more of them around and they have held their value. I think the reason this subject causes tension is because we are talking about bluegrass music and big money, two concepts that are completely alien to each other. It reminds me of a joke someone once told me about a Polish fellow who planned to get rich playing bluegrass music.
futrconslr
May-21-2004, 10:06pm
[QUOTE]I wasn't being ugly, Joel (I promise). Inflection is a hard thing to convey on a keyboard. #
Thats true. Ill tell you what Charlie, next time I am out your way, around quitting time I will buy you the poison of your choice!
Charlie Derrington
May-21-2004, 10:51pm
Sounds good to me.
You're close, come on by.
Charlie
f5loar
May-22-2004, 12:06am
I do believe William Place,Jr, Dave Apollon, Walter K.Bauer,Albert Bellson were into the Loar thing long before Big Mon hit the first lick on "Rocky Road Blues" that cold day in 1945. All the pickers who would have liked one even back then could not beg, borrow or steal one as even then they were custom ordered either by dealers or individuals and slowly made. As evident today to land a used one the original owner had to die.
Even Monroe had to settle for a used one.
57 Chevy BelAir ain't that rare. Now a 57 Cadillac Eldorado Brougham, that's rare! Less of those around then Loars. Using the electric market is a good example to prove the point that Loars ain't got there yet! That current one at Elderly seems to have quite a few miles on it too! Picked enough to wear out the frets and wear the back of the neck. Add to that the lost pickguard and the Virzi tone reducer still in it that would make a really nice one go for over $150K. $250K in 5 years is coming.
[QUOTE]I'll settle for my Dude and Duff for the time being.
Settle for a Dude! That's hilarious. You settle for a Kentucky not a Dude.
I was hoping you'd see the sarcasm in my statement. The Dude and Duff take me where I want to go. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif