Are we getting screwed?

[Bitterroot]

You know I often wonder what the hell makes a small mandolin cost as much as it does. its just wood and glue..sheesh. Maybe its just a sign that mandolin playing is on the rise so the industry is sticking it to the potential players. A good quality middle of the road mandolin start at $2500-$4000. Then you move up to gibsons, rigels, and collings at $6500 plus. Rifrickendiculous!!!

I've played guitar for many years and the guitar you can get for 3k to 4k is great. With very good guitars starting under 1k. Guitars use twice as much material to make it ,just doesn't make sense to me. Think of all the things you can get for $6500.(car,boat,atv,snowmobile,..etc) I guess the "really good" mandolins are only gonna be in the hands of those who can actually toss that kind of cash for them and not feel it.

[Crowder]

It doesn't sound like you understand how good mandolins are made. You might read up on it. Carving the top and back plates takes a lot more skill and time than making the back and sides of a guitar. That's only one example.

[TonyP]

I would suggest you get one of those simple kits and finish it. I think then you will know, just like a good friend of mine did, it's not easy. A flat top guitar is far easier than a carved mandolin. You really want to shock, see how much they are getting for archtop guitars! Makes mando's sound cheap.

[testore]

I helped my brother make a H4 mandola for himself to keep. He did a very good job for number one but at the end he couldn't believe how much HARD WORK it was. He said he wouldn't sell it for less than 10K. Make one for yourself and compare it to the ones you've seen in all price ranges then ask yourself what you think it's worth.Not trying to be a smart %$#. It simply is a TON of work to do it right. Flat instruments are no comparison.Consider yourself lucky that you're not in the market for a good cello or violin.

[Walter Newton]

So, start building/selling and watch the money roll in...

[Bitterroot]

Ok we can stop this thread...I guess the prices are justified....just a bummer. I am very familiar with the making of mandolins, but I think there are other factors to the high prices other than the time for carving and assembly and finish work. Name recognition of company, luthier, or what mandolin stud plays what mandolin..tacks on $ before the first cut is even made.

[evanreilly]

A top-shelf mandolin may take 250 hours to build. You gets what you pays for.

[mandroid]

more equivalent,look at big bodied jazz guitars with hand arch carved tops and backs for price .. like benedetto [looking just at elderly]:
gibson, 7K$,9.5K$, and 35K$ and .. now, weber6K$ new martin 4K$

though you can find Eastman looking for a market segment in that
instrument offering too.

[jim_n_virginia]

Though I am not a luthier I've been a woodworker and woodturner most of my life and am the son of a carpenter so I grew up playing around with wood even as a kid.

Basically you already understand I think from previous posts how much harder it is to handcarve a scroll than the flat sides and top of a guitar. I have a luthier friend who told me there is not much difference carving a violin or a mandolin with all the curves and arches.

But also I think you may be on to something in that mandolins are kinda popular now. I go to jams and the mandolins sometimes out number the other instruments. Seems like mandolins have made a revival lately. The jam BrianT, sgarrity and I go to sometimes has 4 or 5 mandolins to one or two guitars and to me that is too weird because just a few years ago everybody and their brother sang and played guitar.

So with this recent popularity it only stands to reason that good ole capitalism is at work with high demand equal high price. I played guitar for 30 years and I only owned quality guitars (Martin, Taylor etc.) and no guitar I have ever owned costs as much as the mandolin I gig with.

It's just a case of simple suppy and demand. Just like gasoline prices... if you want it bad enough you pay whatever price is out there.

Anyways there are always great deals to be had all over the place.

--jim--

[Tebbie bear]

more equivalent,look at big bodied jazz guitars with hand arch #carved tops and backs for price .. #like benedetto # [looking just at elderly]:
gibson, 7K$,9.5K$, and 35K$ #and .. now, weber6K$ new #martin 4K$

though you can find Eastman looking for a market segment in #that
instrument offering too.
But you can also get a Gretsch, a Guild, a Washburn, An Ibeanez... Etc for less than 1500, in some cases under a grand, They all sound good to great.

[Tebbie bear]

http://www.gretschguitars.com/repository/gretsch/images/G400_xl.jpg
$1500

[Tebbie bear]

http://www.washburn.com/products/electrics/hollow/images/hollowbody_hb15ts.jpg
550 bucks

[Soupy1957]

Bitterroot: I was surprised that you seem to be of the opinion that you can't get a reasonably good mandolin for under "$2500.00." The threads you've participated in, in Musicmoose.org should have taught you that there are a number of us who find the models under a grande to be just fine as "starter" instruments. I HAVE found them very playable and pretty darn good sounding.
Even folks at our local Jam have had a chance to play the ones I've bought for under a grande and they say they are surprised at how easily they play, and that they have sounds that are just as sweet as the high-dollar mandos.
As for construction, I admit to a secret desire to build one of my own, and I've looked at the process as an outsider, both by visiting a local luthier (Dave, at "Smith Creek") and reading some "how to build a mandolin" sites.
I'm convinced that, without the right tools, and knowledge of what I'm doing, it is NOT a task to be undertaken by everyone. No harm in trying it however, if I don't mind the initial expense to find out that I stink at it.
As for the prices, (which is what you were asking about), demand drives prices, of course. I often wonder if the Gibson Lloyd Loars out there, from the 1920's, were as high-priced in 1960 as they are now. (Considering inflation of course).
Basically, finding a mandolin that is under or around a grande, (which I have) that plays well and sounds great (or as great as a Pacrim CAN, that is), is all I ever really wanted. (The wife won't let me go higher anyway).



-Soupy1957

[12 fret]

You have obviously uncovered and exposed the up to now secret Mando-Industrial Complex. Luthiers living in mansions and driving exotic cars while we toil away to scrape together the funds that support their opulent lifestyles. They have known for years how to build a top quality mandolin for about $259 but have conspired to keep the formula away from the public. They refer to it as The Loarinci Code.

[JEStanek]

I had some photos of Hammlet Manor parties with the luthier fat cats smoking cigars lit with $100 bils but a bunch of luthiers from the midwest (who shall remain nameless) came to my home and attacked my hard drive with speed beveled Wegen picks.

Seriously, I believe a good quality mandolin can be had for $800 + on the used market for an A and less than double that for an F style. Certainly, some luthiers command more money than others due to name recognition, but I rather doubt even those builders are living a lifestyle that will have them forgetting their roots, the instruments, or the music their instruments create.

Jamei

[G. Fisher]

Just a quick look at the classifieds.

BRW - $3,350

Pomeroy - $2,750
$2,900
$3,300

Stiver - A $2,600
F $3,500


Rigel- $3,000


I don't think any of these would be considered middle of the road.

[mandomick]

http://www.gretschguitars.com/repository/gretsch/images/G400_xl.jpg
$1500
Tops and backs of these and other guitars of their ilk are steamed and pressed....just like laundry. Not the same as the previously mentioned carved instruments.

[John Flynn]

I've played guitar for many years and the guitar you can get for 3k to 4k is great. With very good guitars starting under 1k. Guitars use twice as much material to make it ,just doesn't make sense to me.
Gee, it must be July, because we're having our annual "the cost of mandolins is too high," thread! I wonder if this one will end the same way the others have, with the understanding that prices for mandolins, and guitars, are set by the intersection of supply and demand, period. When what you are willing to pay meets up with what someone is willing to sell for, that is the price. No conspiracy. And you can get a decent mandolin for under 1K. Lots of choices offshore and used, plus domestic handmade brands like Big Muddy and Glenn. Then you can get really great mandolins for 3K to 4K. On the other hand, you can pay over $6500 for a guitar easily. Both of my local acoustic dealers have more over $6500 guitars than over $6500 mandos on the wall.

On the supply side, you pay a lot for the scroll work. I am not putting down scrolls, but the extra woodworking comes with a price that you don't have with most guitars. I think the two fair comparisons have to be between flat top guitars versus flat top mandolins, and then carved top guitars versus A style carved top mandolins. If you can find new guitars with scrolls, then you could compare those to the F mandolins. With those comparisons, I think the guitar and mando markets are pretty comparable across the board. Mandos may be a little higher, but they are a lower volume market, so that is to be expected. Example: My Parsons flat top is a US built, all solid wood instrument, hand made by a respected luthier. It went new for $400. I was recently pricing some low end guitars. You can't get a US built, all solid wood flat top guitar, hand made by a respected luthier, for anywhere near $400.

The strange end of the market is the "designer" names. That end of the market works more like a luxury goods market or a collectors market. Yes, the quality may be marginally better, but the cost/quality ratio is way off. But the guitar market has that also.

[MartinD_GibsonA]

Tops and backs of these and other guitars of their ilk are steamed and pressed....just like laundry
Mick -- You beat me to the punch.

As for the price of mandolins ... the operative word here is Capitalism WITH a capital "C".

Don Smith

[otterly2k]

Bitterroot...if it's not worth it to you, don't buy it.

Spend a little time and do a little research, and you'll find that there are many good mandolins at lower prices. #Unless you are a professional who relies on an instrument for your livelihood, a mandolin is not a necessity (as much as we enjoy them). #If you'd rather have a car/boat/snowmobile/atv... go ahead and buy one.

But this is Mandolin Cafe (not snowmobile bistro) and there are many talented and dedicated luthiers on this board whom you are suggesting should make less than minimum wage for what they do.

I understand that it is frustrating to want something you can't afford... you always have the option of saving up, building your own, or "settling" for a less expensive instrument.

[Sarge]

...and dont forget the size of the guitar market. There are much more people out there buying acoustic guitars compared to the number of people purchasing mandolins.

[DryBones]

Karen,
Do you have a link for "The Snowmobile Bistro" I can't find it anywhere on the web. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[mandopete]

Hey, just you wait until the clarinet thing takes off. That will make mandolin prices seem like peanuts!

[chip]

I recently spoke with a friend of mine who's an internationally known jazz guitarist about my buying a $20K+ mandolin by a known builder and he just laughed and said, "why"? What's the point. "Its the player not the instrument per se. I asked him what he would do if someone stole his guitar and he said there's plenty of guitars out there that would sound just as good and the problem with these expensive mandolins is that people who's hands they should be in can't afford them and that people with money buy them, thus creating this overblown market. It all seems rather silly but I still want one....:D

[mandroid]

I Would be curious to see a breakdown of guitars sold by type .

shred-metal solidbodys , versus swing,jazz big boxes, versus western flat tops.

[JEStanek]

Karen,
Do you have a link for "The Snowmobile Bistro" I can't find it anywhere on the web. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
Jason and Karen...

Google's gggrrreeeeat!

www.snowmobileworld.com forum (http://www.snowmobileworld.com/forum/index.php)

and <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/E-M-Winston-CN791-Bass-Clarinet-Keys-to-Low-C_W0QQitemZ170127472585QQihZ007QQcategoryZ1018
2QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Buy it now, Baby!</a>

Jamie

[John Rosett]

It's a well known fact that mandolinists make more money than guitarists. Waverly knows this, and that's why a set of 8 mandolin tuners cost $600, or $75 per tuner, while guitar tuners cost $145, or 24.16 per tuner.

[John Flynn]

On the high end, I did some online searching and it seems the Benedetto La Venezia archtop guitar is thought by some to be the most expensive new, current production, non-special edition guitar on the market. It lists for $26K, but can be found discounted for $21K. That is pretty comparable to, maybe even a little higher than, new current production, non-special edition F mandos and again there is not as much scroll work involved with the guitar. That Benedetto is way more expensive that the top end A or two-point mandos, which I think is a more fair comparison.

Moving on to flat-tops, the the most expensive new, current production, non-special edition flat-top guitar is thought by some to be the Martin D-45V at $9.5K. That is way more expensive that any new, current production, non-special edition flat-top mando. I don't think I have seen a flat-top over about $1.5K.

[PhilGE]

I don't think I have seen a flat-top over about $1.5K.

According to Janet Davis Music, list price for Weber Aspen #2 is $1650. Discounted, it's probably near $1500.

And no, I don't think "we're getting screwed." Having watched mandolins being built up from scratch, it's amazing folks make a living at it at all.

That's only my opinion.

[johnwalser]

Steve Gilchrist let me play an instrument he brought with him to LoarFest and that instrument was like touching a bit of Heaven. It practically played itself and even in my hands, made a sound that would have pleased the gods. He had turned down $25,000 for the instrument and if I had the knowledge of how to make a tree sound like that, I would have asked more for my knowledge than just the price of wood and glue. I did graphic design, technical illustrations, maps, logos and such for many years. One day a fellow asked me how I could charge so much for just punching a couple of keys on a computer. I wheeled away from my computer and asked him to show me those two keys as I had been searching for them for many years.
I had Don Paine make me a Pomeroy mandola this past year and am amazed it could be made for ONLY $2500. I guess I am just totally in awe of folks like Steve, Don, Hans Brentrup, Michael Lewis, Ron Cole and so many others that have incredible amounts of knowledge, skill and patience. My hat is off to all the fine luthiers out there making so many wonderful instruments and I do not think of them as overpaid. Now baseball players are what I would call overpaid!
John

[jmcgann]

Anyone know of a discount surgeon? I need some work done under the hood (heart, lungs etc.) but I think what they charge for operations is RIDECKULOOSE. Just because they got more book learnin... I know a guy who got his cat fixed up cheap, maybe he'd be my guy.... # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

Seriously- you can get a serviceable mando for between $1 and $3k. Yes, most of "it" is in the hands. Once you have logged thousands of hours and become an excellent musician, and have a great day job to feed your mando jones, $10 or $20k doesn't seem so far fetched for some of the greatest instruments ever built (These are the good old days for mandolin building IMHO).

If you are 'less skilled', a $20k mando isn;t going to make you sound like a $20k player- if it were that easy, everyone who owned a high end mando would be a virtuoso.

We make music the old fashioned way- we earn it #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[PhilGE]

John,

Along the lines of experience: A good while back, I was hanging out by the sound board at a contra dance where I was keeping tabs on levels. The band started playing a jig and I was inspired to play around at clogging/dancing to the tune (I've been dancing now for over 28 year with movement training in modern dance, ballet, mime, break dance, clogging, jitterbug, and a few others I can't recall right now). I was enjoying the tune and the movement when an accomplished pianist friend came up to me and said something like, "Wow! Can you show me how to do that?!" #I paused... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif # and asked him, "Sure! Can you show me how to play like you do?" http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif #He gave me a blank look, then we both had a good laugh.

I've tried to teach people how to move to the music, how to find the groove, how to find their center of gravity and trust it, how to free themselves of their day-to-day movement routines, and how to simply enjoy being in their bodies. There is so much that goes into freely moving that has nothing to do with "the steps," it's very difficult to convey in words, in a class, in a very short amount of time. I try and remember that when I practice my instruments. It's about time, discipline, and giving yourself the permission to "play" at it. If all I do is focus on the notes, I'll lose focus on the piece and playng will feel and sound like work.

I truly believe the great luthiers all enjoy what they do and have fun "playing" at making instruments within the confines of the boundaries necessary to such works of art. It's the same with any great artist. When you've learned the "vocabulary" so well that you're fluent, it looks easy and natural to onlookers who don't comprehend the enormous amount of time and energy spent to get there.

[gregjones]

So, start building/selling and watch the money roll in...
Yeah.......I tried that building canoes. #The neighbor's kid who fried french fries at McDonalds made more than I did. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Keith Erickson]

You know I often wonder what the hell makes a small mandolin cost as much as it does. its just wood and glue..sheesh. Maybe its just a sign that mandolin playing is on the rise so the industry is sticking it to the potential players. #A good quality middle of the road mandolin start at $2500-$4000. Then you move up to gibsons, rigels, and collings at $6500 plus. Rifrickendiculous!!!
It's called the laws of "supply and demand". When demand for a product goes up, so does the price.

I'm sure that there are some buiders out there that are commanding top dollar because of their product.

...and because their product is so good, the "pre-owned" market from these same luthiers are also commanding top dollar.

Unfortunately for these luthiers, they are most likely not making money on their own used mandolins. It's not like they are not getting residuals like the survivors of those old Gilligan's Island re-runs.

[evanreilly]

In a kind of compensatory fashion, I know that some luthier's have had their earlier instruments returned to them for them to sell on the 'used'/secondary market, with them sometimes receiving a percentage of the sale.

[Brady Smith]

Anyone know of a discount surgeon? I need some work done under the hood (heart, lungs etc.) but I think what they charge for operations is RIDECKULOOSE.
I'll second that!

[sunburst]

Something to consider, that I don't think has been mentioned in this thread, concerning the price difference between flat top guitars and mandolins:

It is relatively easy to produce guitars. Any thickness sander will do a fine job of preparing a guitar top (and back). Carving an arched top (and back) can't be done with a thickness sander. It has traditionally been done by hand, especially the final graduations. Now, CNC machines can, and do, carve mandolin tops, but in the better instruments, the final graduations are still done by hand. To similarly "voice" a flat guitar top one only needs to send it through the sander until it is the right stiffness. (Bracing is something else altogether, and that's where most of the "voicing" of a guitar is done, but there again, it's a lot easier to prepare the braces to glue to a flat top than to prepare tone bars or braces to glue to a carved top.)

In short, guitars are simply easier to produce than mandolins are, so relatively more mandolin builders are small operations and and relatively more guitar builders are production shops. That is reflected in the prices.

[Bing Cullen]

The thing is, I don't think any of these 'boutique' or skilled luthiers making excellent F5 copies etc are getting rich. Even if you sold them at $10k, how many would you need to sell to make a decent living. Raw material costs alone in that are around 2K, then you have tools, power, and time. You'd probably need to make and sell 20 a year and that would be good going. Even though they are not directly competing agianst the imports. Some of those are well made, sound good and are cheap, so most peole will compare and weigh up the difference. I think those luthiers are charging too little for their artistry...but they have to put food on the table.

[mandroid]

feeling screwed?... look at your boss rather than your mandolin.
the real money is in money ! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[gregjones]

Anyone know of a discount surgeon?
Now there's an easy job.......only two models to work on (male/female) and you get to bury your mistakes.

[oggiesnr]

If your car needed 250 hours work doing on it what would the labour charge be? Why should a highly skilled luthier be worth less?

All the best

Steve

[MandoPirate]

Bitterroot ... I feel your pain buddy.

Everyone remember ... us poorer folks who cant afford to do much more than drool over the "EYE CANDY" section ... have to moan about it occaisionally ... cause moaning is free!!!

Im not destitute or implying that Bitterroot is,.. but dang! I could stand to spend about 25 grand on a handful of mandolins. Try to cure my MAS with one treatment instead of living with it my whole life (atleast the rest of it) http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[Bertram Henze]

Screwing takes two - one who screws and one who allows himself to be screwed.

If someone is out for stylish decorations that do nothing to improve tone or playability, it's art he has to pay for; compare that to the price of a Picasso, and do not blame honest craftsmen for your aesthetic preferences.

On the other hand, who can do without scrolls and golden tuners and just listens can go practically all the way for a reasonable price; and that does not mean the instrument has to be downright ugly, just not baroque. I can still watch myself in the mirror while playing and not feel small.

Bertram

[mandolinplayingpreacher]

Well I know that there are people that are going to balk at this but truth is truth.
We are living in a day when the Asian made instruments have come a long way, not only in sound, but also in quality. And yet you can buy an Asian made instrument for a whole lot less than an American made instrument. Why?
I think there a several reasons!
1. Paying for the name.
2. Paying for American labor. (Does it take any less time to build a quality Asian Mandolin?)
3. Paying for a lot of blue sky.

However I believe that if you have the money to spend it is yours to spend. Get what you want. :cool:

[Bernie Daniel]

mandolin..preacher: Well I know that there are people that are going to balk at this but truth is truth. We are living in a day when the Asian made instruments have come a long way, not only in sound, but also in quality. And yet you can buy an Asian made instrument for a whole lot less than an American made instrument.


That might be "truth" to you.

But just to set the record straight that does not make it the truth. #To be more accurate that is your opinion - which is certainly your right of course.

Yes you are paying for american labor -- highly skilled american labor actually.

The typical asian insturment has less bona fide hand labor in it construction.

Short cuts are short cuts. Most of those eastern mandolins have short cuts.

Buy what you want -- I will stick with the best insturments that are really HAND made -- generally in the USA but luthier made regardless of the country.

My $0.02.

[burcher]

in addition to what has been mentioned at length above, it's not just supply and demand but capitalism in general - and marketing. How many people wanted to pay $25 grand for a dude before Thile had one? Gibson - monroe? This celebrity factor surely inflates a lot of these higher end prices a bit and probably explains the big gap between an entry level (couple hundred bucks) the first upgrade ($1000) the second upgrade (2-3K) and the crazy high end prices (5-200K). Frankly, it leaves an intermediate player like me kinda screwed when actually looking for a new instrument. I'm stuck (like many) with absolutely no leads if you think about it. In truth, a $1k handmade local mando may SOUND just as good as a $10k 'brand I've heard of'. AND, most people don't have a mando bros, central, elderly in driving distance to actually go and play a bunch at once to do some comparisons - like a wine tasting - to actually decide for ourselves. So the market is not only driven by supply and demand, but the demand is highly influenced by factors other than actually playing instruments and assessing their 'quality' (whatever that is, anyone read Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenence?). Anyway, I wish I could drive down the road and play a few eastmans, a brw, an adam steffy, a gil, a dude, and a loar to do a blind 'taste' test but alas I cannot.

CB

[Lefty&French]

July 09 2007
July 09 1923
Million dollar thread?

[blacksmith]

I'm jumping into the thread kinda late but FWIW, I used to collect handmade knives, I used to go to the knife shows and haggle with the makers. Then I took a week-long knife making course using just hand tools. I never haggled again. Lesson learned.

[James P]

"...but truth is truth."
Much respect for the craftsfolk at Eastman Strings, but you can count me among the bawkers. I've only played about 100 mandolins tho'. Not being in the bluesky biz myself I'd be curious to know how large a sample of instruments one has to have played in order to know the truth?

[MikeEdgerton]

A mandolin is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. Luckily there are price points along the way to satisfy everyone's taste.

[12 fret]

A lot of the posters here are only looking at what it costs to buy, not what it costs to own. Yes, the Pacrims are good for the money, yes the typical domestic is a lot better and costs more to buy initially. But how many of us keep instruments for life? Chances are you'll someday want to sell or trade. With a Pcrim, you'll be lucky to see 50% of what you initially invested. I've found that the domestics I've kept for 5-7 years actually appreciate over purchase cost, some significantly.

[John Flynn]

Just to keep our terminology straight, "PacRim" or "Pacific Rim" describes all the countries that border on the Pacific Ocean, including the US, Canada and Australia. Those three countries participate in Pacific Rim economic conferences and in RIMPAC military exercises, coordinated by the US PACFLEET. So if we are using the term correctly, Gibsons and Gilchrists PacRim mandos too.

[bgjunkie]

I started with a Epiphone MM-30, which got me going, but I wanted more. I then got a Michael Kelly Dragonfly and thought it was a great mandolin. I even questioned the price of some of the Gibsons at Opry Mills because I thought mine sounded good in comparison. After about a year and a half of playing bluegrass with a group and practicing a whole lot, I was able to play some higher end mandolins (Collings, Gibson, Weber) and was able to appreciate the difference in a fine quality instrument and one of the Korean models I had owned.

I now play a Gibson F-9 and it is all the mandolin I need and was well worth the investment (by that I don't mean resale, I mean an investment in my enjoyment of the music I play). Yes, I suffer from the occassional attack of MAS, but luckily I have friends with better mandolins than me so that I can get my fix.

[Rufus]

I'll admit that when making the plunge from the guitar world to the mandolin world, I was a bit surprised at the cost of the instruments. I figured (wrongly, it appears) that since a mando uses much less wood than a guitar, it would cost comparably less. Obviously, there are a variety of other factors at work, as other posters have mentioned.

Still, I don't think mando prices are all that out of line with other instruments. Think of what a concert-quality violin costs.

Guitars are cheaper, I suspect, because of the quantity produced by most large shops and the cost cutting measures available there such as CNC and so forth. A good hand-made acoustic guitar such as an Olsen or Bourgeious will still set you back a fair amount.

[thistle3585]

You are only getting screwed if you don't get the mandolin that you paid for, and you can't return it for a refund, or if the seller/builder absconded with your deposit.

[Elliot Luber]

My buddy's a surgeon. He's not poor by any means, but the Insurance company pays him only $300 for an operation. After his own insurance payments, he's got to do ten operations before he can get on-line for a Dude or a Gibson MM. And he works 17 hours a day so there's no chance he's going to have time for a hobby. I was at his (very nice) house when the radio said something happened in Iraq. I asked him to put on CNN, but he didn't know what channel it was -- because he never actually gets to sit in his den.

[Bitterroot]

Whatever...I think they are too expensive. I had a $300 Micheal Kelly for two weeks then bought my Weber Bitterroot while only knowing two finger G,C,and D, so i'm not scared to make huge dollar leaps for stuff I want. I'm sure there are probably many more who think the same as me in here. Maybe they feel intimidated or perhaps they have watched long enough and know where this thread will end up. It doesn't really matter if I think it either. If I built one..at the end of building it I'd probably think it was worth 15k just because I hate working with wood and I can't build a square box. I was reffering to more of the mass produced mandolins vs. the guy that makes 5 mandos or less a year. Everyone is taking pricing out of context...with surgeons and whatever. So I will do the same...take your prescription drugs here in the US...prices are retarded for them....but buy the same drugs made here in a different country and you get them for 10bucks. Bottom line...I love the mandolin.....regardless of how much they cost.

[Marcus CA]

This discussion is referring to luxury items. Anyone who says that high-end instruments are too expensive needs to remember that money talks louder than words! When you actually BUY that Weber, you are saying that it really is not too expensive --- despite what you may write on a Cafe posting --- or else you would not have bought it.

You have to buy prescription drugs, but you don't have to buy another mandolin, even if you suffer from MAS.

[pager]

I just sold a 1970's Ibanez 'lawsuit' copy of a Gibson ES-175 for $1,550.00. I bought it new in the seventies for $475.00. I still had the receipt. Apparently, time has shown that those lawsuit PacRim Ibanez guitars were great instruments. So I made a profit on that Pac Rim deal. Of course had I purchased the real deal Gibson in 78, it would be worth considerably more too. I am not sure there are absolute rules on what is going to be a 'good' investment in terms of resale down the road. Yes, the American instruments are probably always going to give you a better return, but there are exceptions, like the PacRim Ibanez deal I just made this weekend!

[Jonathan Peck]

I guess the "really good" mandolins are only gonna be in the hands of those who can actually toss that kind of cash for them and not feel it.
You don't need one...leave them to me....oh wait, I'm not buying anymore mandolins....never mind.

There are plenty of people who own nice mando's who don't fit your description or share your opinion. If you play long enough and trade up, assuming that you haven't already found 'your' mandolin, you'll find that it gets easier to fit into a higher end instrument.

The life expectancy of an instrument is far greater than a car, truck or snowmobile and the instrument will hold it's re-sale value if not increase in value, while that old snowmobile is something you'll have to pay to get hauled away to the junk heap. I'll leave it at that

-jonathan

[Spruce]

"Whatever...I think they are too expensive."

Hi Bitterroot....
So what do you do for a living?? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Just curious....

[John Flynn]

you don't have to buy another mandolin, even if you suffer from MAS.

"Don't ever say that! Not even joking!"

- My favorite line from the movie "Beverly Hills Troup," spoken by a socialite's best friend, in response to the socialite's complaint that she is "too depressed to shop."

[thistle3585]

I wonder if instrument financing would be a profitable niche market? $5000 instrument loan for about $160.00 a month for 36 months. Anyone know of any instrument stores that offer financing options other than layaway?

[Bitterroot]

I actually bought the bitterroot through some wheeling and dealing...only cost me all my old junkie music gear and $500. Its ok if there are people that don't agree...I'm cool with that. I know there are people that do....but it doesn't really matter does it. I've heard that there is a Mandolin Mafia in here ready to hand your arse to you if you say something against the "Family". It doesn't change that fact that what I wrote is valid and so is others points about the intense labor to make a mandolin. I've bought many things in my life which I thought were to expensive, but I bought them anyways. One thing I have noticed that with good quality mandolins their value does hold nicely or go a little higher. You can't say that about a lot of other instruments that devalued by half the minute you walk out the store. If I offended the hard working luthier it wasn't my intention....I just figured mandolin players drove the market...guess not...............oh and I own a Landscape business in Oregon and its a hot one today.

P.S. its fun to think there really is a Mandolin Mafia in here.....I just don't want to wake in the morning with a banjo on the pillow next to me.

[Spruce]

So-ooo, you don't work??? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Calvin]

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[robc in WI]

I'm really new to mandolins so I'm suffering a little from sticker shock too. About 10 years ago, my 2 son's piano teacher recommended we purchase a grand piano (yes my sons are THAT good. We shopped around and looked mostly at baby grands that didn't have the "sound" and tired used smaller grands. Then we found a small local piano store that sold different brands than the big stores. We found a Young Chang (Korean) 6'1" Joseph Pramberger (Steinway designer) model that with our trade-in we got for $6900(retail $17,000). Five years of payments @$160 a month and it was ours. My son's have played many grands since then including some $50,000 Steinways and the Young Chang has better tone than almost all of them. It's still worth more than we paid for it and when I look at the excellent workmanship it's hard for me to justify a $10,000 new mandolin compared to a full sized grand with enought Sitka spruce to make 20 mandolins. I know these custom luthiers are true artists but don't completely rule out the asian builders, they are catching up fast.

[evanreilly]

Well, if the question is really about one getting screwed, the answer may depend on whether or not one smiles during, and hopefully after, the screwing. No???

[Tom C]

What I would like to do is buy the StewMac F-5 kit for $500. Probably $200-300 in tools. Time is not an issue(for me -Unless getting it together before weather/humidity take affect is a variable). So if I could make one that sounds better than I would expect, then yes, they are too expensive. If I flop terribly, screw it, I'll buy a new one. Many things are mysteries but once you tackle them you find it's not as hard as you always believed.

[sunburst]

...it's hard for me to justify a $10,000 new mandolin compared to a full sized grand with enought Sitka spruce to make 20 mandolins.
Pianos are a wonderful example of the cost benefits of production. If you've ever done any work on a piano (I rebuilt a 1923 player piano about 30 years ago) and seen how many small wooden and metal parts there are in there, it's totally amazing that they cost a little as they do.
One could never hand build a piano and come anywhere close to competing on price with production instruments, even Steinway or Bosendorfer or any of the high end pianos.

There are pianos in many homes, nearly all schools, concert halls, churches, bars, night clubs, they're everywhere. That kind of demand invites production of instruments, and production brings prices down. How many homes, schools, concert halls, churches, night clubs, and bars have mandolins?

I've built more banjos than mandolins. I can't buy the component parts to build a top quality bluegrass banjo for the price of an inexpensive piano!

[jmcgann]

Well, if the question is really about one getting screwed, the answer may depend on whether or not one smiles during, and hopefully after, the screwing. No???

YES! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Love ya E-Bones!

[Bill Snyder]

...#I figured (wrongly, it appears) that since a mando uses much less wood than a guitar, it would cost comparably less.
If you are a woodworker you will realize that a carved top/back mandolin has MORE wood in it than a flat top guitar.
The back and sides of a guitar will be roughly 1/8 inch thick with maybe 640 square inches of surface area for top and back in the rough. That equates to about .56 board feet.
The mandolin takes a piece at least 5/8 inch thick with back and top surface area of 312 sq inches in the rough. That works out to about 1.34 board feet.
These are both approximations and do not take into consideration the wood for the sides, neck or bracing, but it does illustrate that the mandolin has more materials than most of you think.
Having said all of that you have to realize that the wood in both of a guitar or mandolin is usually just a small fraction of the cost of the instrument unless you are talking about some rare/hard to get exotic wood.
I think the following illustration shoots down the amount of material in a product determining its value.
A Ford Expedition weighs in at 7700 lbs. empty and the base sticker price is just under $30k. A Mercedes Benz E63 AMG Sedan weighs in at 4035 lbs and has a base sticker price of $85,775.00. It would seem that the Expedition should cost more. It uses 90% more material than the Mercedes (at least by weight), but most of us know, expect and accept that the Mercedes is worth more than the Ford.

[mandroid]

Carnival cruise liner and an aircraft carrier are both big ships , but the bar is better stocked on the former than the latter.
and the main deck is a lot quieter. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[John Flynn]

Carnival cruise liner and an aircraft carrier are both big ships, but the bar is better stocked on the former than the latter and the main deck is a lot quieter.
But on "the boat" we got to sleep on top of a nuclear reactor and under an airport! And we got to visit ports with 5,000 of our best friends! As far as how well the bar was stocked, that depended on where you looked!
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Steve L]

Just to keep our terminology straight, "PacRim" or "Pacific Rim" describes all the countries that border on the Pacific Ocean, including the US, Canada and Australia. Those three countries participate in Pacific Rim economic conferences and in RIMPAC military exercises, coordinated by the US PACFLEET. So if we are using the term correctly, Gibsons and Gilchrists PacRim mandos too.
[QUOTE]

Hey man, if you can keep calling Irish and Scottish music "Celtic", then we can call Asian built mandolins "Pac Rims". http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[John Flynn]

Hey man, if you can keep calling Irish and Scottish music "Celtic", then we can call Asian built mandolins "Pac Rims". #
Hey not only that, when I say "Celtic" I use the Boston pronunciation! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[ApK]

the problem with these expensive mandolins is that people who's hands they should be in can't afford them and that people with money buy them, thus creating this overblown market.
The exact same thing is frequently said about the vintage guitar market. #At best, it's jealously, at worst, well, I think the forum filters that kind of language. #Mandos (and guitars) are working instruments, true. #They are also works of art, examples of craftsmanship and sometimes historical and cultural artifacts. #Not terribly hard to understand why some people put a high value on them.

[John Flynn]

the problem with these expensive mandolins is that people who's hands they should be in can't afford them and that people with money buy them, thus creating this overblown market.
I empathize with that sentiment, but I don't agree with it. First, who is to say "whose hands great instruments should be in?" The government? A "Star Chamber" court made up of Cafe' members? In a free country, the market says whose hands they should be in. Speaking of the "PacRim," if you want artistic talent to be the determining factor on who gets what instrument, that's how they handle it in China. You wanna move there? I don't.

Second, that statement assumes the market is a "zero-sum game," if someone's winning, then someone must be losing. It doesn't work that way. Collectors and yes, even dilletantes, help create the market that supports the builders who give us good instruments. The real deal is that if those people got out of the market, many builders would go out of business and there would be fewer great mandos to be had at any price. In every price range, we all have more and better choices of instruments because there are more people in the market.

When I started playing mando, the market was pretty cold. My first cost me $500, adjusted for inflation to today's dollars. It was a "PacRim" all-plywood, awful POS. For $500 today, I can get an all solid wood, carved top PacRim that is actually a decent instrument or a US handmade flat-top. To get my next mando, I had to call about a half dozen music stores to find just one mando in the $800 to $1,200 range, inflation adjusted. Now, I can walk into any acoustic music store and find a half dozen instruments in that price range, not to mention what I can do online. The story is the same all the way up the price range. THIS is the best time in recent memory to be buying mandolins in all price ranges.

[Yonkle]

I was just thinking on selling 2 or 3 of my mandolins real cheap, even though they are good quality woods and good hardware and they look and sound good, I always have felt no one would pay much for them because of the name.
If someone is going to fork out 3-4 K plus I tend to think a reputation has to go with that instrument or you just can't get what you would really want to make it worth your time to build them.
I just like building them and I am not trying to earn big bucks or start a business, but my mandolin are stacking up and I want to build more so I need to get rid of a couple.
I just never know what to ask for them, this thread has kind of spun my head around a little on the topic.
I think of all the hours and cuts and scraps setbacks and now I think I should get paid a little for my time regardless if I have a "name" or not.
I see those "Rover" mandolins selling for $99.00 new and can't figure how that is possible, must be Koren wages, I spend more than that for a tailpiece! Jd

[Steve L]

Hey not only that, when I say "Celtic" I use the Boston pronunciation! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
[QUOTE]

AAAAHHHHHH(and I'm from Boston)HHHHHHHH!!!!!!

[MikeEdgerton]

I spend more than that for a tailpiece!

Yeah, but most Korean mandolins don't come with a James tailpiece http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[JeffD]

You have obviously uncovered and exposed the up to now secret Mando-Industrial Complex.


They refer to it as The Loarinci Code.
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[yoods]

"P.S. its fun to think there really is a Mandolin Mafia in here.....I just don't want to wake in the morning with a banjo on the pillow next to me. "

Edited by Bitterroot on July 10 2007, 15:37

There is a Mandolin Mafia who goes by Mando Mafia (http://www.mandomafia.com/) for short...

[JeffS]

Going back to the first post I used to think about that a lot. And I am not talking about the independent luthiers who hand build in their own shops. To pick on a company I'll go with Gibson. When you look at the price of one of their custom shop hollow body electrics they are inexpensive compared to one of their mandolins. For example the CS356, we're talking a highly figured solid maple top and a carved mahogany back, plus the sides, back, and center block are all cut from the same block of wood. When you look at raw materials it does make you wonder.

Anyway, this used to bug me and I got over it and MAS by buying a new Strat. And oddly enough the more I play it the more I think I want a hollow or semi-hollow body and can't decide if I want a thinline Tele, an ES-335, or an Epiphone Casino. So now it looks like I have GAS, but it is a much cheaper affliction than MAS. For what its worth I still play my mandolins.

To make one more point... A Sam Bush F5 vs a KS-336. $9k vs $4k. I don't see Sam Bush fighting terrorists, making countless personal sacrifices, and saving Los Angeles from nuclear bombs like Jack Bauer. Nope, Sam is just out there always smiling and having a good time pickin yet his costs more. Hmmm...

[John Flynn]

A Sam Bush F5 vs a KS-336. #$9k vs $4k. #I don't see Sam Bush fighting terrorists, making countless personal sacrifices, and saving Los Angeles from nuclear bombs like Jack Bauer. #Nope, Sam is just out there always smiling and having a good time pickin yet his costs more. - Jeff S
My guess is that Sam did not pay anything for his personal Sam Bush model, so it would be $0 vs $4K.

I also completely don't get the "fighting terrorists like Jack Bauer" analogy. First, Sam Bush is a real musician who plays great stuff, Jack is a fictional cop who continually breaks the rules, putting the country in danger and then inexplicably, gets forgiven and declared a hero because he cleans up the messes he made. Are you saying that for some reason there should be a Gibson Jack Bauer signature model? What would be special about it? Whould Gibson build it with a bomb in it? And if there were such a model, should it cost more, or less, than a KS-336?

[B. T. Walker]

Gibson Jack Bauer signature model? What would be special about it?

Gives a whole new meaning to fingerbuster chords. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[John Flynn]

Wow! We could do a whole thread designing the "Gibson Jack Bauer" signature model. Here are some of my thoughts:

It would be more than distressed, it would be tortured.

You would have to change the strings every 24 hours.

If it were ever stolen, CTU could track it by sattelite and send in a tac team to retrieve it.

Everytime you play it, Morris and Chole are remotely analyzing every note.

You keep getting phone calls from a strange Asian guy, threatening to blow up LA if you don't play "Chinese Breakdown" at 280 BPM in the next 5 minutes.

[mlbex]

You should buy a Big Muddy, or a used Mid Missouri. They are fine mandolins, for less than a good flat top guitar. Because they are flat, they are much easier to make than the arched mandolins, so even though the quality is A-1, they can be sold for $450 to $600. But they don't have the same sound.

I like MidMos, and I'm waiting for the chance to buy an M4. But they are not an adequate substitute for the sound an arched mando makes. I'm hanging on to my Summit F100 until I find (and can afford, and play well enough to deserve) something better.

[JEStanek]

"But they are not an adequate substitute for the sound an arched mando makes."

I might (and many others too) that statement. They are a different sound than an archtopped mandolin. Not better or worse just different. Maybe not as suitable for some styles as an arched ff-hole... but there are things the MidMo/Big Mu can do that those guys can't.

Re: the Jack Bauer mando- it's loud and has no sustain - it barks everything. When you break a string you shout dammit!

Jamie

[JeffS]

Ah, the obligatory buy a MidMo post... I love those.

I have a question. What is the resale value of a Gibson MM. There's a 2001 Gibson F-5L Fern (description says master model) on eBay with a buy it now price of $5,000. Considering what a new Fern sells for and what a MM sells for today I am a bit puzzled. Do Gibson's lose that much value?

[Bill Snyder]

Well Jeff I have read several times that you can expect new instruments to lose 30% of their value immediately. You can get a new F-5L Fern for about $7,600 so the $5,000 buy it now price is within $320 of that loose guideline.

[Caleb]

Ah, the obligatory buy a MidMo post... I love those.
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif???