Martin wolverine mando 1924 seeking info

[phillybluz]

i have acquired a nice Martin flat back bent top mando..serial # dates it to 1924..it is branded Wolverine Made Especially for Grinnell Bros at Nazereth Pa...any idea how many of these were built?? current market value??
it plays nice, dry woody tone, unusual, pleasant bass response.no cracks or repairs..nice little mando.

thanks !! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[MikeEdgerton]

Post a picture, it sounds like a Martin Style A but you never know.

[brunello97]

The Grinnell Bros. company was a Detroit, Michigan music emporium (perhaps beginning as makers of pianos and maybe organs....) They grew into a full scale operation selling a full range of musical instruments as well as eventually radios, phonographs, etc. I believe they were in business until the late 1970s. Lots of web information on them.

The jobbed out a lot of instruments to sell under their brand name "Wolverine". Who knows how many marching bands?
This from the Blue Book of Acoustic Guitars by Zachary Fjestad

"The Wolverine trademark was applied to Martin-built guitars and mandolins for the Grinnell Brothers of Detroit, Michigan. Wolverine instruments carry the regular Martin serial numbers." That ought to help you confirm the date of construction by Martin.

I'll try to find out a bit more on Grinnell. Another piece of lost Detroit.

Do you have some pictures to post?

Mick

[phillybluz]

http://www.deadzoom.com/users/phillybluz/m1.jpg

[phillybluz]

http://www.deadzoom.com/users/phillybluz/m2.jpg

[phillybluz]

http://www.deadzoom.com/users/phillybluz/m3.jpg

[phillybluz]

http://www.deadzoom.com/users/phillybluz/m4.jpg

[bradeinhorn]

shnigiddy shnai. it's an a-style: market value? somewhere between 1000-1200.

I love those little martins. the shorter scale is great and a pleasure to play on. great around the living room picker. I'd like to get one, one day.

[OregonMike]

That's a totally cool find. Congratulations.

Inquiring minds want to know, are these the same arrow-end tuners that Gibson was using during the 23/24 Loar period?

[MikeEdgerton]

Brad, you're really way generous on your value. The real value (what you could really sell it for) is somewhere between $450.00 and $650.00 on a good day. It's a standard A Style Martin that is for sale weekly on eBay. They just don't take those kind of dollars. I seriously doubt that the one's that are posted here in the classifieds get the $900.00 prices asked and if they do I may have to flood the market. The only A Style Martin's I've ever seen hit a grand were the Koa models as they are indeed rare. The last non Martin branded A Style I saw was a Ditson a few months back and it was in the $475.00 price range. Gruhn routinely has these at high prices and he might get that money, I don't think it will go anywhere near the high end of my range. The easy way to test it is to set the reserve for $2000.00 and start the bidding at $100.00.

[phillybluz]

i had no intention of selling the mandolin..it was a great/lucky find on my part, it plays nice and sounds, well, sweet..not very loud, just old, dry and sweet..i was more curious as to how many Martin Wolverine mando's were actually built..can't be that many, so the upside value could be in the rarity and the Detroit connection..i realize that these Martin A's are not the most desirable mando's..i used to see them at the guitar shows back in the early 90's in the $600 range which i thought to be a fair market value..after all, to find a solid wood, mostly handmade mando today for $600 is unheard of..besides it is a Martin..as you can see from the photo's, mahogany and spruce of this quality would command premium prices today..for what it is, i am sure it is undervalued, just as a 50's stratocaster made of random parts and factory built is probably overvalued

[phillybluz]

not to mention the genuine ebony fingerboard, nut and bridge

[phillybluz]

and rosewood binding

[MikeEdgerton]

The Martin A styles are excellent little mandolins that have been much aligned by the playing public. With that said if you search eBay looking for Martin Mandolins in the closed auctions you'll see one that sold for $610.00, one that didn't get a bid at $650.00 and one that on the second time it was listed got $999.99 in exc++ condition with the original case and I'll say that the seller of the last one should doing the happy dance. If I had yours I'd hang onto it too only because it's a little unusual. The other odd thing about the Martin A styles is that age doesn't seem to affect the price. They made that same model up into the 70's.

[phillybluz]

thanks mike..i agree these Martin mando's seem to be caught in the twilight zone as far as auction prices realized..unlike their guitars and ukulele's which command top dollar..i do plan to hold on to it..it is my 2nd Martin mando..i also have a bowl back Martin from 1910 a Weber Hyalite, and an early 80's Flatiron pancake..this Wolverine compliments the collection nicely

[bradeinhorn]

i don't know mike, you might be right accordning to ebay (which often undervalues things for various reasons) but according to the most recent vintage guitar price guide (which isn't the bible either)- a 1924 would fit into the most valuable period of martin a styles (which apparently were made through 1995). the ones froms the 50's on are valued at apprx 20% less and i have seen them sell at stores around 750-800 regularly (one a 59 and one a 64). his seems to be in at least excellent minus condition to me...so i don't think 1000 is necessarily very generous.

[12 fret]

Re: Values...

Elderly currently has 3 for sale. One from the 20's, one from the 60's, and one from the 70's. All the same price, $900.I have always liked them and plan to buy one in the near future so I envy your find. Over the years, I've seen more Gibson made Grinnells, mostly guitars comaprable to Kalamazoo's

[MikeEdgerton]

Brad I've sold several in the last two years and don't live by that guide you'll die by it. They're only worth what they'll sell for. What Gruhn and Elderly list them for is not what the rest of the world pays for them. I think you'll find that a 20's model and a 50's model in the same condition will sell for the same amount. The guy that got $999.00 got lucky. Beyond the aged wood thing that is surprising as the earlier ones had an inlaid pickguard and the later ones were glued to the surface. By the way if anyone ever needs an original "from the factory" pickguard I think I have one left. I bought a bunch years ago in Nazareth. I was amazed when the woman in the store reached into a box and came up with a stack of them that had to be 25 years old or more then.

[bradeinhorn]

and NOW the fine print:
the 20's one is in EC minus condition without the ohsc (and with a chipboard case)
the 60's one is EC minus but WITH the original case
the 70's one is in EC plus condtion with a newer more durable and mores expensive looking case than either.

[phillybluz]

this guy needs a case....

so..does anyone have an idea about how many Martin Grinnell Mando's were built?

i get the idea on value, and really to me no big deal..this one cost me 1/4 of your low estimates, so..no biggie

most curious about the history of the Wolverine / Martin connection

[MikeEdgerton]

You might be able to get that information by sending an e-mail to Martin Customer Service, they are usually pretty helpful and their records are a bit more complete than the Gibson records. The Gruhn book doesn't list other brands manufactured by martin the way it does for Gibson so there probably isn't a whole lot of documentation out there. As far as a case goes I have a feeling that it might rattle around a bit in a normal A Style case. Musicians Friend sells a decent little A style hard case for $29.00. I put the internal dimensions up in another thread last week, let me see if i can find them.

Here they are:
"Inside length is 27 3/4" betwen the fuzz, width at the widest part is a little over 10 1/4" between the fuzz. The distance from the pick box to the bottom of the case is 15" (again fuzz to fuzz)). The length from the other end of the pick box to the top of the case is 7 1/2". The dept of the case is almost 3 inches plus the dept of the top is another inch or so. The padding will compress some if you're slightly over those dimesnions."

[gregjones]

The other odd thing about the Martin A styles is that age doesn't seem to affect the price. They made that same model up into the 70's.
Is there a "firewood" period in there? You know, still good but..........

[phillybluz]

starting to get a bit too cryptic around here

[MikeEdgerton]

The model was introduced in 1914. They made some minor changes over the years. I believe this was a production model into the 70's and special order item after that until 1995. The 70's to 95 part I'm not real clear on, I'm gathering that from documentation. I've never seen one past 1970 in person. All of them seemed pretty similar other than the the change in the pickguard and some variation in tuners. The only thing that might make a 50's model unattractive is that some of them had Kluson tuners and the buttons might be brittle. All pretty much the same beyond that IMO.

[gregjones]

starting to get a bit too cryptic around here
Phil....

A "firewood" period of an instrument is a time span during it's production that something or another makes it less desirable than others made either earlier or later.

Congrats on your find!!!!!

Thanks, Mike.

[cgwilsonjr]

Good mandolins. I have a 1977 Martin A that is a very plesant sounding mando. I paid about $600 for it five years ago and I notice they are not going up in value very fast. That being said I think they are a real bargain in an American made instrument if you don't need to play bluegrass. Chuck

[mandolooter]

I had a Wolverine bowlback that I sold about a year ago. I had no Idea it mighta been made by Martin. It was very nice tho.

[OregonMike]

Inquiring minds want to know, are these the same arrow-end tuners that Gibson was using during the 23/24 Loar period?
I'm going to quote myself here, I'm still curious if these are snakehead year arrow-end tuning machines? That would make this particular Martin A a little more juicy, right?

[phillybluz]

here is a kick..i sent an inquiry to martin guitars regarding this mando..here is their answer, which is most obviously incorrect..i think i'll drive up to PA and kick some butt in the Martin history department..my my, how quick we forget..
"Hi Barry,

Thank you for contacting us. I am sorry but Martin never made Wolverine mandolins.



Sorry I could not be of more help.



June Laubach

C.F. Martin & Co., Inc.

Customer Service"

[MikeEdgerton]

June is wrong. Let me see if I have anything else in my piles of information regarding Wolverine. That is a Martin A style mandolin.

If you wanted to part it out the tuning machines would give you a few dollars. It has Waverly tuners and the tailpiece was a Waverly as well.

[MikeEdgerton]

I had a Wolverine bowlback that I sold about a year ago. I had no Idea it mighta been made by Martin. It was very nice tho.
Was that a really ornate bowlback?

[phillybluz]

hi mike-i have no desire to part it out, so fancy tuners or not, i ain't messin' with it..it is to my eye all original, and for whatever it is worth, a wonderful, beautiful, fully functional musical instrument..i hope my grandchildren get to enjoy it

[MikeEdgerton]

I know you wouldn't part it out, I was answering the question about the tuners.

[Eugene]

I had a Wolverine bowlback that I sold about a year ago. I had no Idea it mighta been made by Martin. It was very nice tho.
I'm really pining to see this. #Don't be stingy with these photos, Mr. Looter! If it is a Martin, they're really easy to ID.

[Eugene]

Not relevant to this piece, but with some bearing on the consistency of style A market values, very early style A mandolins (1914-1916) were backed in Brazilian rosewood and more valuable, but relatively rare so I can't tell you what they're taking nowadays.

I'm surprised nobody has cited:

Longworth, M. 1988, 1994. Martin Guitars, A History. 4 Maples Press Inc., Minisink Hills, PA.

The book is pretty thorough regarding the firm's production, but oddly makes no mention of Grinnell. It goes so far as to say "Though it is always possible that others were made, the list below is complete as far as the written records are concerned." The piece in question obviously is a Martin, and I can't envision any reason to fake a style A or a custom order from the Grinnell shop. I suspect Grinnell simply ordered stock A styles without any aspect of customization, and Martin simply considered them as another customer without making special note of their relationship.

I'm a huge fan of Martin mandolins. My principal is a 1908 one-of-a-kind.

[Paul Weber]

My friend had a ukulele with the same stamp inside and it definitely was made by Martin. It also had the Wolverine stamp on the back of the peghead. Nothing fancy, just a Style 0.

[MikeEdgerton]

The Martin Style B was rosewood going forward. Those are a rarer bird. The Style A has nothing to do with the body shape and everything to do with what it was built out of and the ornamentation.

[Eugene]

All the Martin flat series are of the same body shape, so style A certainly has something to do with shape, but it's the same shape as every other model in the flat-backed series, styles A through E. The style A designation is definitely in reference to materials (i.e., mahogany from 1917 on) and ornamentation (simple purfling strips, square head with open tuners, etc.) within that shape. The real money of the flat series is the style D with only seven made over the whole of its production. Not so common as A which had a much longer productiion run, but style B is pretty common. ...And the style A really was backed in rosewood too, at least for its first few years.

[MikeEdgerton]

I think if you check Martin history the material used in guitars changed at the same time. Many instruments that were Rosewood went to mahogany at the same time. The Style A and the Style B have the same body shape, different headstock. For a short period of time they made the bowlbacks and the bent top flat back models. If the A had anything to do with the body shape I'm sure the 2-15 would have been an A as well.

[MikeEdgerton]

Let me get the picture right this time. Style A, B, C, D, and E.

[Eugene]

Exactly, although I'm not certain why "If the A had anything to do with the body shape I'm sure the 2-15 would have been an A as well." The archtop series (styles 15, 20, 30, 2-15, 2-20, and 2-30) was different from the flat-back series with its own profile (with or without points) and style designations, no "A" required. As I'm sure you know, Mike, but some other North American mandolin fans don't seem to consider, an "A" designation meant something very different to Martin, Lyon & Healy, etc. than it did to Gibson, and I believe the terminology absolutely should not be applied universally across makers that were not striving to deliberately reproduce Gibson paradigms. I wrote quite a bit on that notion in "Mandolin Types" section of the old FAQ here years ago.

[Eugene]

Also of course, that C style scratchplate is a bit old-fashioned. After 1917, they were pretty much all the standard Martin shape that we all became accustomed to on guitars, like the rest pictured.

[MikeEdgerton]

I'm just saying that we in the mandolin community think that Style A refers to the shape of the body. In Martin's case it doesn't obviously. The Gibson shape obviously affected the Martin design but a Style A Martin doesn't have anything to do with body shape.

[Eugene]

Exactly. #Regarding that "we in the mandolin community think that Style A refers to the shape of the body," I think that's an artifice of those who initially come to mandolin from a North American, Gibson-and-emulators-only perspective. #Some of us didn't and are totally perplexed by others referring to a Martin style 15 or a L&H style C as an "A style"...or by your eloquently polite efforts to explain that they aren't. #The necessity to do so just doesn't ordinarily occur to me unless somebody expressly labels some non-Gibson as "A" in error.

[Jim Garber]

I'm surprised nobody has cited:

Longworth, M. 1988, 1994. Martin Guitars, A History. 4 Maples Press Inc., Minisink Hills, PA.

The book is pretty thorough regarding the firm's production, but oddly makes no mention of Grinnell.
I have the 1975 edition of Longworth's book. Was this entry edited out of later editions?


Wolverine This brand of guitars and mandolins was made for Grinnell Brothers of Detroit. They had regular Martin serial numbers.

Jim

[mandolooter]

[QUOTE]Was that a really ornate bowlback?

Yes
A pic can be found on the first page of the "Women with Mandolins" thread. My daughter is holding it but it's hard to tell cuz you can't see her...lol!

[Jim Garber]

I think this is the one that belonged to mandolooter. I highly doubt it was made by Martin, tho it looks very nice.

Jim

[Jim Garber]

Here is some more info I found in my files about Grinnell:

Grinnell Brothers Music House
27 South Saginaw Street
Pontiac, MI 48342
National Register Listed 04/19/1984

Built in 1923, the Pontiac store is an outstanding example of the use of the Gothic Revival influence on an early twentieth-century commercial building. The structure is a small, three-story building with a two-story, stone-trimmed storefront and a Gothic detailed stone facade above. It was Pontiac's home of Michigan's leading music store for over one-half a century. This fact establishes the building's local significance in music and commerce. Based upon designs by Leo John Heenan, the building adds a unique, Gothic Revival facade to Pontiac's architectural heritage. Brothers Clayton A. and Ira L. Grinnell began a music business in Ann Arbor in 1880. The company moved to Detroit in 1882 and began manufacturing pianos in 1901. They soon became one of Michigan's largest piano and general music dealers. Because of its strong local relationship to the Grinnell Company, the building retains sufficient integrity to convey its history during the time it served as a significant local business in Pontiac.

Jim

[Eugene]

I'm surprised nobody has cited:

Longworth, M. 1988, 1994. Martin Guitars, A History. 4 Maples Press Inc., Minisink Hills, PA.

The book is pretty thorough regarding the firm's production, but oddly makes no mention of Grinnell.
I have the 1975 edition of Longworth's book. Was this entry edited out of later editions?


Wolverine #This brand of guitars and mandolins was made for Grinnell Brothers of Detroit. They had regular Martin serial numbers.

Jim
Nope, it's there and I'm just goofy enough to have missed it.

[Eugene]

I think this is the one that belonged to mandolooter. I highly doubt it was made by Martin, tho it looks very nice.
Yeah, I remember that one now and all the discussion around it. I agree, I doubt it's by Martin.

[brunello97]

Nice catch, Jim. Leo Heenan was a bit of a gunner in Michigan architectural history. A lot of eclectic stylings across the state. I believe the old Grinnell HQ building is still standing in dt Detroit.

Here's a link to a little more on the company:

http://info.detnews.com/history....usiness (http://info.detnews.com/history/story/index.cfm?id=130&category=business)

The MOP on mandolooters bowl is amazing. Of course, so is a cello playing wolverine, in its own right.

Mick

[Jim Garber]

Ah, Mick, it is good to have an architect on board here. I thought you had posted that some time ago but I guess not.

Jim

[Eugene]

I'm surprised nobody has cited:

Longworth, M. 1988, 1994. Martin Guitars, A History. 4 Maples Press Inc., Minisink Hills, PA.

The book is pretty thorough regarding the firm's production, but oddly makes no mention of Grinnell.
I have the 1975 edition of Longworth's book. Was this entry edited out of later editions?


Wolverine #This brand of guitars and mandolins was made for Grinnell Brothers of Detroit. They had regular Martin serial numbers.

Jim
Nope, it's there and I'm just goofy enough to have missed it.
...Which makes Martin's assertion to Barry even more baffling.

[MikeEdgerton]

It's not a Martin and that's the one I thought it was. Nice mandolin though. Jim I'm surprised you can't ID it by the headstock shape. You usually pull those out.

[phillybluz]

i sent June @ Martin a note with some photo's ..here is the thread with her reply:

june

yes !! Martin did make wolverine mandolins !! as noted on page 223 of Mike Longworth's Martin guitar history book..

here are some photo's..this one dates to 1924 serial # 11225..it is DEFINATELY a Martin

just curious as to how many were made in total

thanks june

barry

here are the photo's.....(same photo's i posted on page 1 of this thread)

her reply:


Barry,

You are ABSOLUTELY correct, I’m sorry for the wrong information.

Because we did not differentiate which serial numbers were used on Wolverine mandolins from the

Martin mandolins we do not have these production totals.



Sorry I could not be of more help



June Laubach

C.F. Martin & Co., Inc.

Customer Service

[MikeEdgerton]

June is very helpful http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[brunello97]

Well, Barry, here's another one:

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Martin-Mandolin-Nazareth-PA-Circa-1922-Music_W0QQitemZ250141549729QQihZ015QQcatego
ryZ10179QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage....iewItem</a>

So you know they made at least two.

Mick

[phillybluz]

hey Mick
thanks for that heads up..the one on eBay is a little nastier looking than mine, but i'll watch it..for what it's worth, i strung mine up with light gauge classical strings. i don't want to stress this old girl too much..it took a few days to settle in, and now, plays and sounds as sweet as sugar..i wouldn't part with her for the world..thanks again Mick

[phillybluz]

compared to that one on ebay, the serial number on mine dates mine newer by 470 units or so.now, did Martin make 500 of these Wolverines' consecutively or, did they just pop them out for Grinnell as they needed them??? i think only the Shadow knows..!!..the one currently on ebay is mislabled as a 1922..in fact i believe it to be 1923..mine is 1924

[JeffD]

Those Martins do sound nice. I would love to get my hands on one.

I have heard that some of them have trouble staying tuned. Any more trouble than any other old instrument I don't know.

[MikeEdgerton]

I'm going to guess they used standard Martin serial numbers. That's high production for a private label.

[phillybluz]

they were definately using standard Martin serial #'s back then..that's the rub that makes it difficult if not impossible to determine the total Martin production of Wolverine mandolins

[Jim Garber]

I have the 1975 edition of Longworth's book. Was this entry edited out of later editions?


Wolverine This brand of guitars and mandolins was made for Grinnell Brothers of Detroit. They had regular Martin serial numbers.
Quoting myself from a post on an earlier page of this thread...

Jim

[Jim Garber]

Perhaps they were eaten by Wolverines (http://www.wildlands.org/l_wolverine.html).

http://www.wildlands.org/images/wolverine-2.jpg

Jim

[Jim Garber]

they were definately using standard Martin serial #'s back then..that's the rub that makes it difficult if not impossible to determine the total Martin production of Wolverine mandolins
Actually, Martin kept very accurate log books. There may even be listing of what was sold to whom and in what numbers, esp if they were wholesalers. Maybe you could check with June again.

Jim

[MikeEdgerton]

Everything is relative. I was under the impression that Martin's records were very complete but then again, compared to Gibson's they would look complete no matter what.

[brunello97]

Perhaps they were eaten by Wolverines (http://www.wildlands.org/l_wolverine.html).

Jim

I rolling with this topic since the wolverine is the mascot of my employer. Which is more than a step above my HS team, the LaPorte Gnawin' Nutria. Maybe copped for a line of washboards but I'm not holding my breath.

Mick