Folk/celtic mandolin building book?

[trevor]

I am asking for a friend, I know I don't have the patience to build myself. Is there a good book on building folk/celtic style mandolins?

I am aware of Roger Siminoff's BG books.

[thistle3585]

I think Graham MacDonald's book would be the closest. Its a great book and I would recommend it for anyone new to building.

Andrew

[John Flynn]

You might look at: "Mandolin Manual: The Art, Craft and Science of the Mandolin and Mandola" by John Troughton. I don't personally have experience with it, but looking at the samples of the book on Amazon, it appears that is all about flat top, folk/celtic-style mandolins, as opposed to carved top bluegrass instruments.

[Graham McDonald]

I am currently working on another book on building a variety of NonF5 mandolins. It should be out the middle of next year.

cheers

graham

[dave17120]

I have both books, and both are excellent in their own ways, though Troughton is more mandolin-related, and obviously Graham's more bouzouki related.

There is a good plan for a bouzouki in the second, with adaptions for a 5 course, and plans for mandolin, mandola and zook in Troughton, but all need to be drawn out full scale.

Wish him luck, Dave

[mikeyes]

Please don't call tham "Celtic Style" mandolins. There is no such thing. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Graham McDonald]

I think there is a distinctive 'Celtic' style of mandolin - with a carved top and a flat back, and a rounder and deeper body tht the Gibson type. More or less the type that Sobell has been building for many years. I think is suficianetly different to the fully carved and the flat back/top mandos to warrant a distinctive nomenclature.

cheers

graham

[mikeyes]

Graham,

I grant you that there is a Sobell style that has caught on with some of the prominent Irish Mandolinists, but that style is not the only style of mandolin played by those who play Irish mandolin. Besides "Celtic" doesn't mean anything beyond being a marketing tool for mostly Irish stuff. I doubt that a Manx Islander will take a look at a Sobell mandolin and exclaim "Wow, another Celtic Mandolin!"

Of course, this is a pet peeve of mine (that "Celtic" is a meaningless term) so take it with a grain of salt. We don't call the F style of mandolins "bluegrass style mandolins" even though they dominate that style by a factor of 9999-1. They are used in other music (including Irish) but I grant that if you did call a mandolin that, everyone would know what you are talking about.

On the other hand, vintage Gibson A oval hole mandolins are used a lot in the States for Irish music (Mick Moloney, for example) and that sound is suited to Irish music. All the Scottish musicians I know (all three) play F hole instruments. Perhaps this is driving my perceptions.

All in all, this is a tempest in a teapot so I withdraw my comment. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Avi Ziv]

I have the Troughton book. While I like many things about it, I can't recall a single person (around here) who has built from that book. Has any of you? One unusual aspect of that design are bent sides that connect into slots cut in the sides of the neck block. I'm thinking of trying one...some day when I finish my deathly-slow build of the IV kit...

Avi

[Graham McDonald]

Hello MIke,

I totally agree with you about the misuse of the term Celtic, especially when describing musical things. It was just that it seemed a useful label to apply to an instrument with a carved top and flat back to distinguish them from other ways of building. I have to call that chapter something!

cheers

graham

[John Flynn]

Please don't call tham "Celtic Style" mandolins. There is no such thing
I disagree. Celtic is a style of music and I think the term is descriptive of the kind of instruments favored by the majority of people who play Celtic music. When he said "Celtic mandolin," I knew exactly what he was talking about, so it's a useful term. If you want to get right down to it, you could also say there is no such thing as a bluegrass mandolin.

Well, there is no such thing as a bluegrass mandolin. There is bluegrass-style mandolin playing but the common F-style mandolin was designed LONG before bluegrass music came about and was not at all intended for bluegrass music.

[trevor]

Thanks for all the info.

I don't want to get into a debate about what to call what. I use terms as I think they are commonly understood, we have to use words to communicate. If a particular word is understood to have a particular meaning to the vast majority then it will do for me, even if I know it is technically incorrect.

I like to think I am bi-lingual English/American (I've visited the US over 20 times since 1972) but sometimes I get it wrong...

[mikeyes]

Trevor,

"Celtic Mandolin" is fine, everyone knows that you mean a mandolin that is built like an Irish Bouzouki, even me. I am just being difficult because of my pet peeve concerning the word "Celtic".

[whistler]

there is a distinctive 'Celtic' style of mandolin - with a carved top and a flat back, and a rounder and deeper body tht the Gibson type.

...except that a lot of players of Irish and Scottish music play flat-topped instruments, and a lot of others play Gibson-type A- and F-style instruments.

[PseudoCelt]

Perhaps "Sobell-type" would be a more suitable term?

Patrick

[mikeyes]

Of course, Gibson already built a carved topped, flat backed, round holed mandolin in the late 30's (?) for a short time (for the usual reason, it was cheaper) but they didn't last long. Probably because no ITM players were around to buy them. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[first string]

I've heard many non bluegrass players, refer to F5s as Bluegrass mandolins. Whether that is an accurate tittle or not is open to debate, but like it or not, words mean what people use them to mean--it's one of the incontrovertible facts of linguistics. Which is not to say that we can't try and influence or set the meanings of terms. It just means that sometimes that ship has sailed, at which point there's nothing you can do about it. But anyway...

I'm pretty intrigued myself, by the Sobell mandolin design. Has it really been imitated by many other luthiers? I haven't seen any (though of course at this point hundreds of people have copied his OM/Cittern design), and would be interested if someone could point me to some other builders using that shape. Also, I'm curious--it was stated that he uses a carved top and a flat back, but his website says that his mandolins have carved maple backs. But then in the picture they look pretty flat, though it can be hard to tell from a photo sometimes. Has he changed the design, or is something else going on?

[Bill Snyder]

Not exactly the same as Sobell's but Graham McDonald builds one of a similar shape. Last one on the page here. (http://www.mcdonaldstrings.com/mandolin.html)

[thistle3585]

I understood that he was doing some minimal carving to an induced arched top. I think Graham offers that option too.

[Graham McDonald]

Not on a mandolin. I have always carved those. I tried moulding mandolin sized soundboards, but it was just too hard. My friend Scott Wise over in West Australia (www.wiseluthiers.com) has worked out a way to do it for mandolins, but I don't know the details. I am not even moulding the bouzouki soundboards much any more. It is more fun carving them!

Perhaps calling them 'Sobell-style' rather than 'celtic' would be more appropriate. I first played one 30 years ago and the memory of it stayed with me. What did stay with me was the fact that it had a radiused fingerboard, which seemed then to be a very sensible idea, but it was years until the idea became generally acceptable.

cheers

graham

[thistle3585]

I don't know. Seems like someones been calling it a Bluegrass Mandolin since the mid seventies. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif


http://www.stewmac.com/catalog/images_1lg/0530_1lg.jpg

[PseudoCelt]

I'm pretty intrigued myself, by the Sobell mandolin design. Has it really been imitated by many other luthiers? I haven't seen any (though of course at this point hundreds of people have copied his OM/Cittern design), and would be interested if someone could point me to some other builders using that shape.
Carved top, flat back mandolins are a little more common in the UK (still not that common). Paul Shippey (http://www.paulshippey.co.uk/), Phil Davidson (http://www.davidsoninstruments.com/) and Richard Osborne (http://www.osborneguitars.co.uk/) are three other luthiers that make this type of mandolin, though their designs are not quite like Sobell's.


Also, I'm curious--it was stated that he uses a carved top and a flat back, but his website says that his mandolins have carved maple backs. But then in the picture they look pretty flat, though it can be hard to tell from a photo sometimes. Has he changed the design, or is something else going on?
He changed the design a few years ago. Stefan Sobell's newer mandolins have carved maple backs, and I have heard that this is now his preferred style, though he will make mandolins with the older style flat rosewood backs if requested. There are a few flat-back, maple-bodied Sobells around, made in the late '70s/early '80s - Elderly had/has one for sale.

Patrick

[first string]

Thanks Patrick. That was pretty much exactly what I was looking for.

Cheers.

[Bill Snyder]

What about some of Chris Baird's mandolins (http://www.archesmusic.com/Flattop.htm) or you could look through the Eye Candy (http://www.mandolincafe.com/archives/builders/a.html) for a builder who's style interested you. Several of those shown are the Gibsonesque A styles, but there are several others to look at.

[Jim MacDaniel]

I doubt that a Manx Islander will take a look at a Sobell mandolin and exclaim "Wow, another Celtic Mandolin!"...
Is there such a thing as a Manx mandolin, and if so, does it have no tail-piece? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif