Vega mandolins?

[Goodin]

So I was searching around on the internet for vintage mandolins and I saw the Vega cylinder back mandolins made from about 1900-1920 or so. I like the style of the mandolins and the quality looks very good. Looks like they are going for about the same price as a pre-Loar Gibson A. Does anyone here have one? How do they sound? Play? worth the money?

Thanks - Goodin

[otterly2k]

Goodin- I've played a few of these. In good condition, they are worth the price. They tend to have a really lovely bell-like tone. Best suited to non-bluegrass styles, like most oval hole mandos. Of course there will be variation in playability based on the condition of the individual instrument.

[Jim Garber]

If you do some searching on these boards you will see quite a few threads referencing them.

Their fatal (sort of) flaw is that many have warped tops. This seems to be caused by the way that the pickguard was inlaid into the top so it is usually on the treble side. They can be fixed but it can be costly and you need to find someone who has the smarts on how to do it correctly.

If you are interested in one buy it either in person or, if remotely, from a reputable dealer or seller who is willing to give you an approval period.

And do string it with light gauge strings at most. they are lovely instruments but are built much lighter than Gibsons.

Jim

[Bob A]

I've had a couple pass thru my hands over the years. They have a very interesting tonality. It seems to me that the "cylinder" chamber acts as a reverb tank in a way; the sound spends a lot of time bouncing around in there. Very pleasant instruments, but for some reason I don't understand I've never kept one for more than a year or so.

They're very lightly-built, but loud. Don't expect a heavy Gibson bass. More like the flatbacked Martins.

The backs came in mahogany, maple and rosewood. Mine were mahogany and maple models. I believe the rosewood ones were the scarcest, but I might be wrong.

[Mike Buesseler]

Well, I'm expecting my Vega 202 to arrive back from Jim DeCava this Friday. I hope to post pictures and finish the story of this mandolin, which some of you might remember started back in February. I took a bit of a beating on the purchase of this mando, but found (with JGarber's help, of course) a luthier who was willing and able to tackle the repair. I spoke to him this morning, and although he said he strung it with J-62 strings, he could see no reason not to use something heavier, if I preferred. He says that even when the tops have sunk, they are very solid. He had a heck of a time getting mine back to it's original (or close) shape, but he rebraces slightly, and seems to think this even improves the tone.

I can't wait to get my hands on it! I haven't been this excited about a mando since I bought this one last winter (only to be disappointed when it arrived with the sunken top).

[JEStanek]

Can't wait to see the end of your Saga, Mike. Those are elegant and beautiful instruments.

Jamie

[brunello97]

Yes, Mike, please let us know how things turned out. I was thinking about you and your Vega when Goodin first raised the question. #I'm particularly curious these days about added bracing used to support sinking tops and what effect on sound quality they might have. #Frank Ford had an interesting post in the REPAIRS section on this subject viz his work on a Gibson A with sinking top. An interesting approach using laminated braces.

I hope you are completely delighted with the Vega. #You certainly deserve some good news on this.

Mick

[Goodin]

Hey MikeB - Was that an Ebay special you got? Just curious since you "took a beating" on it, with the sunken top. Sounds like you might have got it on ebay. Anyway, cant wait to see the pics.

[Mike Buesseler]

Not eBay, Craig's List. I think I did all the right things, except to see it and play it in person--one of Craigslists suggested rules. There were a lot of weird circumstances to this one, none an excuse for my bad decision, really. But, that's water under the bridge. I've long since accepted this deal, and I should have an excellent instrument that I paid a little too much for. Could have been worse. I'll have about $1800 in it, which includes original case, new frets and the top restored and reinforced. I'm good with that!

Btw, I think JDeCava's reinforced bracing is pretty subtle, not a total redesign of the top, or anything. I'll know in a few more days. If I can see what he did (and get a decent photo inside) I'll show it off to everyone, I promise.

[Mike Buesseler]

I got my Vega back from repair last Friday and have been thinking about what to post here that might be most helpful to potential Vega owners or interesting to anyone.

First of all, no pics. There are plenty of them out there, and mine is pretty much standard issue--which is only to say I think it is beautiful.

Jim DeCava was able to get most of the warp out of the top, but not all of it. When I sent it to him, there was a fairly thick shim (1/16", or so) under the treble end of the bridge, an attempt to offset the top sinkage and make it playable. That shim is totally gone now and the mandolin is perfectly playable, so I know JD was able to raise the top that much, at least.

He repaired or replaced--I'm not sure which--a brace under the top. All I can say about that is that it looks fine to me, clean and solid.

These Vegas have some pretty serious bracing, at least compared to archtop Gibson As. There is one transverse brace about 1" forward (towards the neck) of the bridge that runs from edge to edge of the top. Forward of that, are two diagonal braces, forming sort of a "V" with its vortex against the transverse brace. These are not whimpy braces! This makes me wonder why people seem to think you need to use light strings on these instruments. Jim put J-62s on, but suggested I could go heavier if wanted. I'm not going to push this, but I think I'd like something a bit heavier.

We all know the difficulties of describing the sound of different mandolins. It ain't easy, besides the fact that I haven't played that many other mandolins, anyway.

Nevertheless, compared to my Collings MF and my '20 Gibson A, the Vega is very different. I doubt it is as loud as the Gibson, certainly nowhere near as loud as the Collings. But, it is not weak sounding, either. There is a very nice "depth" that others have described in the Vega. Resonance, I guess. Sustain. Very nice balance, to my ear, across the strings. None jump out more than others. The smoothness or clarity of each note is very, very pleasing.

This mandolin likes to be strummed, as in old-time music, open position chords. I think I like it for that better than either of my other mandolins. Must be the sustain I like. The fullness, too. Nice bass, but not boomy.

When I got the mandolin home and strung it up, it took awhile to settle in. I needed to retune constantly, it seemed. Now, after a few days here, I pulled it out yesterday and it was in perfect tune. Still there this morning. This is nice!

One thing I don't understand is how this mandolin (and classical bowlbacks that I have seen) get away with an uncompensated saddle. This one has a bone saddle cap on top of an ebony bridge. Not the slightest bit of compensation. Yet, the intonation is perfect. How the heck does that work, anyway? I guess I don't understand compensation in the first place.... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[Bob A]

There's frequently a bit of slanting of the movable bridge on bowlbacks that takes care of the compensation. Also, since a lesser amount of correction is necessary with lighter gauge strings, a bit of trimming on the saddle will often suffice.

FWIW, the saddle on my Pecoraro (an Embergher in all but name) is in fact compensated; most if not all the Emberghers have compensated saddles.

[james condino]

I had a Vega cylinder back mandocello in the shop last year for a couple of months. I had quite a hard time giving it back. The volume was in the middle range, but the tone was thick and lush with a lot of sustain. Whenever I picked it up, instantly an hour would dissappear!

They also made a mando bass that are very interesting.

j.
www.condino.com

[Orrin Star]

Hi All:

I just - this past Wednesday - got a Vega cylinder-back via ebay.

An aquaintance in Westchester County, NY had one that I played a while
ago and that I really liked - so I'd been looking for one for quite a while.

Last night I brought it to the weekly 'tailgate party' after the Sunday night
DC-area contra dance - and played it solo for the dozen or so folks there
for about 40 minutes - and it is a VERY COOL SOUNDING instrument,
particularly for solo stuff; it's got that fat bottom thing and sounds pretty
loud and full to boot. #I never loved the sound of Martin mandos; this had
more heft to it IMHO.

Orrin
www.orrinstar.com
Mando Workshop Day in
Charlottesville, VA, June 24

[danb]

I think they have very nice tone. The ones with maple backs also seem to be particularly mellow and sweet to my ear. They were quite popular in Milwaukee when I lived there, and comparatively easy to find at the time.

[Jim Garber]

They also made a mando bass that are very interesting.
This one was at the Music Emporium last year.

Jim

[danb]

Is that one a mandocello?

[Jim Garber]

No, that is the mandobass. Here is the what the 'cellos looked like. (from Crescendo)

Jim

[danb]

I've seen one of the vega mandocellos in person, that bass just looks fairly short-scale to me to be a bass is all.

[BradKlein]

You’re right about the scale length, Dan. (I acquired the instrument pictured above, about a year ago) #The Vega mandobass has a scale of 37”, whereas the Gibson J models are about 42”, I believe.

It’s a lovely instrument, well made, all original, easy to play, sounds great. #I’d be interested to hear from anyone else who owns one or has played one. #I don’t imagine that many were made or survive.

Before I acquired the instrument, it had been played professionally in a folk ensemble in the Boston area. #Its owner had purchased it from the Fretted Instrument Workshop in Amherst about 20 years earlier. #It most probably dates from the late teens, but I can only wonder about its history, pre-1986.

[Bob DeVellis]

Congrats to all who've recently acquired cylinder-backs! As many of you know, I'm a huge fan of these instruments. I can remember playing one in a shop a few years ago that I thought was a bit overpriced at the time. I'd play it, look at the price, put it down, play something else, go back to the Vega, etc. etc. in a repeating cycle. I ended up buying it because its tone just mesmerized me. I'm glad I did. To my ear, these have many (though not all) of the virtues of a teens Gibson and a warmth and smoothness of tone that I think exceeds the Gibsons. All very subjective and personal, but I really like these little guys.

[Jim Garber]

There is a Vega cylinder mandobass in the Milwaukee Mandolin Orchestra. Paul Ruppa, the director, is an expert on these instruments and encourages the members to play them.

http://www.milmando.org/images/MMO2005.jpg

Jim

[BradKlein]

Nice picture of the MMO, Jim.

Paul has been very informative in the past concerning the Vega instruments. The mandobass in the picture IS by Vega, but it is NOT a cylinder-back. You can see that it lacks the patented hump, by looking at the profile on either side of the neck.

Pretty neat instrument though.

[dunbarhamlin]

Yep - from memory this instrument does have a standard bass scale length. It's good to get confirmation that the cylindar backed basses have a 37" scale - given the MMO instument's scale, I'd wondered if the Vega catalogues stated scale length was a typo.

Cheers
Steve

[danb]

Ah yes, when I lived in Milwaukee I'd go to visit Paul occasionally. I recall vividly playing a Cylinderback Mandola he had and falling in love.. it's what got me searching for my current 10-stringer.

I see some familiar faces in that photo. Tommy Schwark up near the top-right for sure http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

jgarber, are you a Milwaukeean?

[Jim Garber]

No, I am not of the Milwaukee persuasion. However, Linda Binder (to the right of the MB headstock and with a Breedlove Orca) is an active Café-er under the nom-de-screen Hrimaly. BTW Paul is to the left of the MB headtstock. I believe that Linda still owns a cylinder-back mandola and possibly a mandolin as well.

Jim

[Mike Buesseler]

Neat photo, Jim, as usual.

I changed strings on my Vega yesterday--from J62s to J73s. (Not many choices available here in town.) I didn't notice until I was half way through, that the only difference in these sets is the G course. .034 for the J62s, .038 for the J73s. At least it wasn't a huge change in tension. I think I like the heavier Gs, and wish I could confidently increase the guage all around. Comments made here by other owners have me nervous about that.

Anyway, I played for a long time last night with a guitar player friend, and both of us fell more and more in love with the sound of this mandolin, probably partly due to the strings breaking in.

I find myself agreeing more and more with Bobd (whose writing about Vega CBs got me interested in them in the first place). There is something very special about the sound of these mandolins...

Btw, you might notice Orrin Star's post above. I wrote to him asking what guage strings he was going to use. He said his CB was having a crack repaired, but that he thought he'd probably go with his usual J74s. I warned him off that idea, suggested he talk to his luthier about using such heavy strings? Was I right? I wish someone could give a definitive answer to what kind of string tension is best for this mandolin. I think there is a perception that they are fragile because of the frequent sunken tops. Having spoken to Jim DeCava (who repaired mine), and after looking at these hefty braces, they don't seem fragile to me at all. Any thoughts? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif