Review: first gig with the bose pas system

[jim_n_virginia]

Well we played our gig tonight which was a small neighborhood street festival put on by the city. They had bands every 2 or 3 blocks up and down 2 main streets along with an art walk with artists showing their stuff.

The first thing I liked and I kinda knew it was going to be a breeze was setting up and doing sound check. OH MAN how nice it was to back my truck up, unload and put THREE pieces of equipment together in 5 minutes and I'm ready to start plugging stuff in.

Put everything together and started the sound check and at first I couldn't get much gain and was getting some feedback when I remembered the manual says to have 7' between you and the tower and when I pushed the tower back a bit I then could set up the mics very easy.
I can see that on a small stage this could be a problem if you are on top of the base. I see that some people put the tower in front? I may experiment with that later.

It took 25 minutes to unload and set everything up and do the sound check and be ready to play, I timed it.

I had a Macintyre Feather installed last week and I ran it through a Fishman Pro Platinum EQ and into the Bose system with preset at flat. I must say I am very pleased with the Macintyre pickup. Definitely not as good as playing into a mic but for plug and play I like it. I had a Fishman bridge set up and I took it off. The Macintyre didn't amplfy every little bump or movement you made on the top but was responsive enough to pick up just enough to sound pretty good. I had two vocal mics plugged straight into channels 1 & 2 with presets set on for SM-58 which is what we used. The mandolin and each went through a Pro Platinum EQ and into a small Behringer mixer. The bass (upright Englehardt) plugged straight into channel 4 to take advantage of the Bose Bass module.

I must say we were disapointed in the bass response. I have seen people play with two modules so maybe we need to do that. Or I read that there is some sort of small bass enhancer you can plug in too. I'll have to check it out.
Over all I was satisfied with the sound of my mandolin (Gibson F-5L) the only thing I might comment on is the chop sounded just a tad bit thin. I think this was more of because I am still learning the system than any lack of the system.

Over all the sound was great but I was a little disapointed that the sound doesn't carry as far as I thought it might outside. The guitar player lead singer has a very strong voice that really cuts through and at one point I put my mandolin down and walked out into the street (no cars of course) and I could go about maybe a good 20-25ft and the sound just sorta dropped off. Again this may be due to my newness in adjusting gain and all that but my PA system you can hear for 3 blocks of course it is 800 watts and the Bose PAS is 250watts I believe.

But I gotta say one thing, it may not have been loud but the sound was just great. Very, very natural sounding and isn't that what we want in acoustic music? I had the two vocals hooked to the remote control. Once we had the music from the instruments set up it was very, very easy and helpful to just adjust the vocals with the remote and mix the vocals and instruments just right.

I still don't understand why Bose just has channels 1&2 and another control for overall volume on the remote. I wish they had controls for all 4 channels plus overall volume on the remote. And while Bose says you don't need it, I wish I had a little reverb to play with in adjusting the vocals. Seems like I needed just a tiny bit. I could get an outside unit and I may look into that. And reverb will be on the new LII's.

Sound wise I am pretty much happy with it. I think the new LII's coming are going to be pretty awesome because any gripes I have with the LI as small as they may be will be fixed in the LII's. I don't think this system will make me want to sell my big PA with the 15" JBL mains and 12" JBL monitors because I can see limitations with this system.

We played the VA Hospital Employee picnic a few weeks ago and it was outside, had a ring of tents maybe 300-400 yards. Big stage and maybe 250-300 with more milling around outside of the audience area. I believe even two towers may have been not enough for something like this even. But I do think for the medium sized venues like 25-100 this one tower is perfect, two would be better and most of the gigs we get that are not festivals are of this size.

I have 45 days to decide if I want to keep this thing. I am not 100% sure I will keep it but after tonight there is a good chance I will. We have a few more gigs where we provide the sound so I know I will learn a lot more from these gigs. So now I have the big PA for outside big gigs (we don't do clubs or bars)or a big auditorium. The Bose PAS system for the medium venues. I may pick up another second tower if all goes well.

Then for small coffee houses and nursing homes I have two 50 watt Marshall 2 channel amps and the bass player has a small bass amp. And many times we play unplugged still too.

I am happy with the Bose and I think my biggest problem is going to be... where in the heck am I going to store all this gear! It's all over the place!

Oh yeah the Bose PAS Forum was a huge help. Especially the Sketcher Program which posted our band and equipment sketch and someone (thanks RT) helped me figure out where everything is going to go and plug in.

OH WOE! Equipment Acquisition Syndrome is JUST as bad as MAS sometimes!


http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[fredfrank]

I just did sound for my wife's all-girl trio, and was wanting to combine a couple of systems to do this.

I ran the six mics through my Mackie mixer into three JBL Eon 15's which were tilted back for monitors. Then I took a line out of two of the JBL's into two Bose PAS towers which were configured out front like a conventional PA.

I was able to get a lot of power out of these in this way. This gig was outside facing a couple of buildings a half block away, so it was a little bit contained, though not enough to create feedback or echo.

Our band is playing the same venue in a couple of weeks, and I'm thinking about just using the Bose, and setting it up behind us, eliminating the need for monitors.

I should add, Jim, that we started out with only one tower for our five-piece bluegrass band. It was just not quite enough, and the addition of another really added more options as to how we could use these.

We have plugged directly into the towers since they each have four inputs and we use eight mics, but I haven't had a lot of opportunities to work with that method. Even though that's the way they are designed to be used.

[steve V. johnson]

Thanks for the reports, Jim and Fred!

Re: bass... Most of the time I don't put basses thru the PA, even with my Mackie mixer and 450's system. I've found that most bassists have some sort of amp system that they like and that it's not entirely necessary to stress the mains/monitors with the big ol' bass waves for the bass to be heard well, even at 150-200ft.

So I wonder how that would work with your folks, Jim, if your bassist just used his amp onstage and you just left the bass out of the Bose?

Fred, the idea of feeding the Bose from a more conventional system is really cool, it had never occurred to me (a lot of things haven't, tho... javascript:%20InstaSmilie() ). What I hear from the folks around here who use the Bose (and the number of them is growing) is that -not- needing onstage monitors is one of the best features of the Bose system.

Someone else here commented that using a conventional mixer to feed the Bose system was really good for them...

Thanks!

stv

[TonyP]

Good job Jim. I appreciate someone who is objective, and it certainly seems like you have given a good assessment.

If I may, I'm still a little perplexed as to the advantages as, for me, it's the "frontend", running cables and setting up stands etc. that takes time. My 450's take all of 5min to set up. But to be fair, I've got mine on a modified handtruck, and I could see if your trying to haul them separate, that's a ton of work. Also at like $1700 a pop, you almost by 3 450's, or even more EON's.

So, you are really just using the Bose as mains, having still to add a frontend of mixer etc. I've timed my sys. and with setup and calibration, it takes almost exactly an hour, now http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif At first it took longer, and more than likely, your setup time will take less as time goes on too.

There's also the fact that you, and most here it seems have to have what I now call open air monitors, as opposed to IEM's. Either wedges, or like the Bose, deal with having the mains as your monitors. There's still a lot of messin' to get rid of feedback etc.. And just as an aside, we've done a lot of noisy gigs lately. One, 3ft away from the curb downtown, loud trucks, cars, boombox's, a loud bar, and if not for the IEM's, we'd a been sunk. We are also going to being playing a casino, and I'm sure after what we've been through, they are going to save us again.

Not being able to get the whole unit up off the ground is not efficient either. Almost half of the tower is just running into the front row, and then it's knocked out. Of course if you are on a stage, no problem, but most of our gigs are outside, without a stage. I've found the 450's really carry outside and so far has all I've needed. I'm sorry if this as seen as sour grapes. I'm just throwing in my 2c for those still sitting on the fence about what to do for sound. YMMV.

[Jonathan Reinhardt]

and just to chime in, glad you got it under control, Jim.
question - you put the speaker (tower) behind you? wasn't too clear to me from your post. I agree, two towers smight be better, and I would put them in front/to the sides as far as necessary, but then again,I don't know the nuances of the Bose. or your band.
I agree with Tony, an hour is a nice sound set up time. did one in 20 minutes the other nite. accomplished. no problems with the sound, but I was the one who suffered. was too rushed to even tune up and never settled down enough all night to play my best.

rasa
Jonathan Reinhardt

[fredfrank]

Tony, I have to agree with you as to the lack of advantage as we get farther from the intended set-up of the Bose PAS. I have had some gigs where I was able to use it behind us as it was designed to do.

But there are so many situations we run into where I have no idea what to do for sound. I'm sure we are not the first band who has to play out of a coat closet, but the thing that frustrates me is when everyone comes up and says: "Turn it up!" We are always running as loud as we can get with our equipment.

I wish I could find something that works perfectly for band and audience. I thought the PAS system was going in the right direction, but it's not the miracle that many people want it to be. You still have certain physical location requirements to make it work correctly.

I was going to sell my JBL Eons after we got the Bose, but there are a number of situations where they work better for the venue than the Bose does. So now, I get to carry around two systems unless I have time to go scope out the gig before we have to set up.

[steve V. johnson]

Fred, there are other threads and posts here from Bose users, and as I recall, some address the situation of using them outside, and for larger audiences. You probably shouldn't give up on 'em just yet...

I recently heard them in a club, with two towers and six (!!!) subwoofer boxes, and the volume and clarity was pretty impressive, and they worked without monitors. The band was a trio, electric guitar & acoustic guitar (one player), electric bass and a big drum kit. The bass and electric guitar used regular amps and the vocals and acoustic guitar went thru the Bose. Everything was quite audible in all parts of the (irregularly-shaped) room, so it was fairly impressive.

But it seems like so many other things, the more $$ you throw at it, the better it works... (sorry about that, it seems to be the Way of the World...)

Good luck,

stv

[TonyP]

Man, ain't it the truth Rasa. That's the hardest part, going from left brain tweek to right brain musician. I hate it. Believe me, when they come out with the magic carpet PA, you know, like in the cartoons. You unroll it, and give it a snap, and bam! you gotta PA. I'll be the first one in line. And it might be big $$ don't mean a thing I want it so bad.
Boy I know about the closet thing Fred! Ain't no skinny guys in the band. And with banjo and guitar swingin' them big necks, close quarters is as bad for whackin' pegheads as it is whackin' knotheads. Dangerous biz. The lesson tonite was for me, it works don't go messin' wit' it. I had extra time(which almost never happens) and thought I'd redo the eq and lift the lo cut on the 450's. Sounded great with the cd(Joe Craven's Camptown, yahoo!) Great bottom,big stereo, cool. The rest of the guys showed, added the banjo/vocal, and bass mics. Didn't have time to soundcheck, just a feedback buster session, then just started, WRONG....
The bass was a boomy mess, the banjo sounded phase shifted, yuk. But now the gig was on and had to switch hats back and forth, way hard for me. Not until there was almost a bass insurrection halfway through the set, did I remember the lo cuts. Viola! Seems counter intuitive, but totally did the trick.
I really support everybody in doing what works for them. I've seen some big $$$ stuff sound like an am radio, and I've seen stuff that shoulda sounded like that am radio, but was killer. I guess everybody needs to work out their formula that works. And if it works, don't change it http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[D C Blood]

I had in the past, thought about getting the new Bose setup for our anywhere from three to six piece BG band...We use the one mic system mostly and like it a lot that way. Most of our shows are small to medium, so we don't have a huge festival-type setup. We have been using an AT4033 mic, a Peavy amp w/phantom, of course, mid-size JBL speakers. We don't get too complicated w/all kinds of sound processors or add-ons. Small monitors do OK even with the AT mic. We've just recently begun to experiment with earbud/headphone monitors, and from rehearsals at home, they seem like they are gonna work pretty well. We'll have our first show with them next week, in a large room setting in a church. We are using a new setup we just bought for small venues, a Yamaha built-in portable system that seems to have plenty enough power for the size. I guess I'm "bloviating" here about all this, but it is just to say that the Bose thread kinda has helped me to decide I don't really want to fool with the Bose setup.:p

[fredfrank]

D C Blood - I wouldn't advise the Bose PAS for a large condenser mic, especially if you want to put the PAS behind you. Maybe it would work out front. But that seems like it's defeating the purpose of the Bose. Even the Bose people don't have a solution for the one mic setup.

On a side note, I recently read an article about the one mic thing. It said that the in the old days, the bands used the one mic set-up because they had to, not because they wanted to. Seems like the PA's of old didn't have a lot of channels. They also didn't use large diaphragm mics.
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[allenhopkins]

Re: the one-mic set-up...

I'm old enough (when I started playing, the Dead Sea was just sick) to remember groups working coffeehouses, clubs and medium-sized theaters with just one or two mics. What they had to do was "mix" themselves acoustically. People played louder or softer, closer or farther away from the mic, depending on whether they were playing or singing lead or back-up. They listened to each other acoustically -- no monitors, in most cases -- and adjusted their volume and playing techniques to their roles at specific times in a particular number.

Access to modern multi-channel sound systems has been overall a benefit (there were times when the audience couldn't hear a particular voice or instrument, and the inherent differences in volume among the different types of instrument often caused problems -- e.g. a sharp drop-off in volume between the banjo break and the Dobro break). But many bands now just aren't used to that acoustic "mixing" process; each musician plays or sings at a fairly uniform volume throughout. It takes a lot of practice, and re-thinking how each band member approaches a particular song or tune, to make the one-mic approach work.

There's a real similarity with the widespread use of pickups or transducers on acoustic instruments. In the past, the musician would get closer to, or farther away from, the mic when a change in volume was needed. Now, unless he or she is using a volume control, he or she has to learn to vary the acoustic loudness of the instrument in order to change from lead to back-up.

IMHO, the less sophisticated your amplification system is, the more sophisticated you have to be as a musician, if you want to get the overall "mix" to which your audiences are probably accustomed.

This having been said, I just played a two-hour festival job through a Fender Amp Can, probably the smallest and least sophisticated "PA" one could use. Seemed to work OK, though the combination of teeny PA, cheap mics, and 19th-Century instruments (I used the Merrill aluminum mandolin and the Washburn bowl-back mandola, as well as a no-name gut-strung banjo, an 1860-era guitar, an 1887 Wheatstone treble concertina, and a similar-vintage 5-bar Zimmermann Autoharp) was the furthest thing from "state of the art." Hey, it's all music...

[DailyAcousticMusic]

I've been very pleased with our bose system...but, here is how we use it:

I switch between guitar and mando and do vocals.
Bill sings harmony and plays guitar.
Carmen plays bass.

I have a Neumann KMS 105 for vocals, and have been using my Neumann KM184 for both instruments. (Using the KM184 works without feedback standing, but sitting is more of a challenge...we stand) This is an easy set up and easy switch between guitar and mando.

Bill plugs his Takamine direct and fiddles with that #### on the side of his guitar...He plugs a Shure 58 for vocals.

Carmen plugs his acoustic/electric bass direct.

I use a tower and a bass module.
Bill uses a tower and a bass module.
Carmen uses a tower and 2 bass modules.

I believe this is how the Bose was designed to be used...and, in regard to some comments about mixing acoustically, with your ears, that is very close to how we mix it. Last Thursday, it was jam packed and it keeps amazing us with the clarity of vocals and fairly transparent acoustics.

Expensive...yes. However, my 3 way powered mackies and 2 way monitors and Onyx have been sitting for quite some time...When Bill and I do guitar/mando jazz instrumentals in smaller or quieter venues, we use my AER Domino and he plugs direct with his guitar and I use a super cardoid shure lapel mic on my mando....I'm very pleased with the sound we get with the AER.

If you want to have more players into one tower, you begin to see some limitations....I still haven't done a big outdoor gig...I have one in a couple of weeks and will probably give the Bose a go instead of hawling the heavy mackie stuff....

I'm pleased with the Bose...for sure.

Kia Manuia,

Dale

[Shana Aisenberg]

I sent the Bose PAS back before 45 the day trial period was up. I thought the quality of sound was good however it didn't really work for our purposes. Some of the issues for our duo were; 1) we don't plug our instruments in, only use mics. Many performance situations are too crowded to have PAS far enough behind us to avoid feedback in that situation. 2) we generally don't use monitors, and found that with the PAS loud enough for the audience to hear was way more sound coming at us than we're used to. We couldn't hear ourselves naturally, which was a distraction. 3) for the price, I would've preferred inputs 3 and 4 having same controls as 1 and 2. It's a good system, but not for everybody.

Seth

[TonyP]

It's really helpful to hear how people who it works for, use it. We had a fiddle player sit in with us last nite, and we use the modified 4033 setup. It's in the middle with the main lead singer/guitar and we mostly come it to it for vocals, and each of us has an instrument mic. The fiddler, like so many looked at my sys. with the laptop going etc. and says, if you guys just use the one mic you don't need the ear monitors or all that other stuff. I forgot to point out, and the bands he quoted as using that setup, also use wireless IEM's. You have to look close. But the wired IEM's like what we use, I think would be a nightmare with the kind of choreography that's required with a true single mic. There's always some problem, eh? I tried to tell him, when the sys is right, it's pretty seamless, but simplicity is a tough thing to achieve in real life.

[jim_n_virginia]

D C Blood - I wouldn't advise the Bose PAS for a large condenser mic, especially if you want to put the PAS behind you. Maybe it would work out front. But that seems like it's defeating the purpose of the Bose. Even the Bose people don't have a solution for the one mic setup.
Actually Fred Bose did do some testing of condenser mics in a bluegrass setting. And it works.

Read about it here. http://bose.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/8146026354/m/6801040252

It took me about 20 -30 minutes to set up. Thats with me very unfamiliar with the setup. I think I could get it down to 15-20 minutes when I know what the heck I was doing.

With my reg PA system I would have to make 2-3 trips to my truck getting all the equipment on a cart. Putting the 15" mains on poles, monitors and setting everything out. That alone would take me 30 minutes depending how far I had to carry my equipment. Then I had to do a sound check.

The bottom line from my limited experiences with the Bose system is that it is a very fast and easy setup. It's 4 pieces of equipment none weighing more than the base which weighs probably 25 pounds. All snaps together in 5 minutes.
Good for medium to fairly large venues. One tower is good for solo, duo and trio is pushing it. If you have a 4 or 5 memmber band you need 2 towers at least.

It's best for quieter setting like a sit down auditorium where the audience watches. Not so good for a noisy club although many make it work if you have enough towers.

You need a little room. If you play cramped places it may not work. Fortunately most places we play have enough room. I think pretty much clubs and bars have those tiny 4X8 stages and we don't play clubs and bars. Been there, done that, and don't like it. More power to those that do (you have infinitely more patience with drunks than I do! LOL!)

I think if you like to play pure acoustic music and play for acoustic music lovers who actually like to listen to you and you are not background eating and drinking music this is a good system.

And I got less than 2K in the Bose system. I have a little more than that invested in my big PA system. Like I said, I'm going to keep it for a while anyways just in case but if I pick up another tower I don't envision me using it very much.

It's not for everyone. And it's not for every gig. It's a different tool in the tool box. Would you use a big PA system in a small coffee shop?

[steve V. johnson]

fredfrank wrote: "I recently read an article about the one mic thing. It said that the in the old days, the bands used the one mic set-up because they had to, not because they wanted to. Seems like the PA's of old didn't have a lot of channels. They also didn't use large diaphragm mics."

Channels? What were channels? The mics were ribbon or carbon mics. Dynamic mics came into use somewhat in the '30's and condensor mics were invented before WWII but didn't come into wide use here until after WWII.

Remember, most recordings were mono until the mid-'60's, so PA's were too. After the war systems were built with more than two channels.

When the Bose PAS first came out, I went to the Bose site and read thru a bunch of the forum stuff. Bose didn't even -want- to test the system with condensor mics for a couple of years. Finally so many folks tried condensor mics, and the ol' One Mic method, and had a bad time with both, and then asked Bose, that they actually tested some condensors and published the results. I haven't been back there in a long time, but all I saw was that Bose was very reluctant to condone, let alone recommend condensor mic use with the PAS systems.

Just for the record...

stv

[steve V. johnson]

Dale,

Thanks, and it's nice to know that you can use those nice condensors with your Bose systems. And, yes, that seems to be very much the designed configuration.

Cool, thanks,

stv

[steve V. johnson]

Jim wrote from Virginia, "Actually Fred Bose did do some testing of condenser mics in a bluegrass setting. And it works.

Read about it here. #http://bose.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/8146026354/m/6801040252"

Ahh, good. #I knew I was behind the times.

I have great hopes for the Bose system, I hope it makes things easier for all of us as it evolves. #(And perhaps the prices come down, too. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif ) I like the concept, but I'd like the control options that several folks have mentioned here, and more channels, too.

Thanks,

stv

[TonyP]

It's taken the last of my hope away, sad to say. The idea of having 7' between me and each tower pretty much makes it impossible for either of the 4man bluegrass bands I play with, being able to use it in any of the venues we play. Even outside. That, and seeing how even when we get paid good, it would take years to pay off just one. And by all accounts, you need one per man? I can't even get these guys to buy their own mics! much less $1800 a piece tower. The corker too was(that I'd not thought of), no way would I want the volume that is trying to reach the back row, to hit me first. I quit rock and roll because of too many decibel's. Thanks again so much Jim for your review and an insight beyond stuff that Bose puts out. Sounds like it might be a good match for you and I wish you all the fortune and fame you can handle.

[fredfrank]

Jim wrote from Virginia, "Actually Fred Bose did do some testing of condenser mics in a bluegrass setting. And it works.

Except that the consensus is that feedback is always just on the edge of starting, and you can't really get a lot of gain before all the feedback gets rolling.

They also put the towers up on the front line, angling them in slightly to enable players to hear some of the sound. I've done that with conventional PA systems, and I don't know why you'd need a Bose for that setup. The consensus there was that although they could hear the mix from the speakers, it wasn't quite enough to be any better than what they were hearing gathered together acoustically.

We have tried the Bose towers in many different configurations, and the best yet seems to be plugging directly into the system--even though we are putting eight mics through two towers. Of course, you don't get to use any effects like reverb, (or if you have Pete Wernick playing with you, a phase shifter).

I bought two of these because my wife and I play music together and she also plays in a three-piece girl's band. So I have many applications for them. But I'm not gonna buy three more for my bluegrass band.

[Crowder]

Anyone care to offer a straight-up comparison between the Bose PAS and the more common powered speakers from JBL and Mackie?

[jim_n_virginia]

Anyone care to offer a straight-up comparison between the Bose PAS and the more common powered speakers from JBL and Mackie?
Yeah ... the Bose is a sleigh ride and and my 15" JBL mains are a jet ski! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[jim_n_virginia]

The corker too was(that I'd not thought of), no way would I want the volume that is trying to reach the back row, to hit me first. I quit rock and roll because of too many decibel's.
Thats the cool thing about this system Tony. I don't know how it works but all I know is that it is not loud in front of the tower. You don't need monitors and you hear what the audience hears but it is not loud but the music carries and the sound is not directed like conventional speakers where if you stand in front of then it hurts your ears.

Somehow you can crank it up and the music is all around you and you can reach out into the audience pretty far and still have a conversation. Kinda weird really.

Like I said not a system for every venue but what system is?

We have a private party at a company coming up soon. I am doing all the experimentation now and I am going to try the one mic set up. But I'll have the Shure's close by just in case.

[steve V. johnson]

Jim replied to TonyP, re volume SPL, " I don't know how it works but all I know is that it is not loud in front of the tower. "

This is one thing about the PAS's that I can attest to. When I heard my friends' PAS here in a club (two towers and four subs), I thought it was loud at the back of the room (and it was a little louder back there than I would have liked), and it was wonderfully clear and well-defined. So I went up front to see what it was like for the band, and the speaker arrays just do not throw sound pressure levels (aka "move air" ) like conventional speakers. I figured it was deafening onstage, but it was nowhere near that.

It is a weird sensation, and pretty amazing.

stv