Potential new mandolin playeri

[Rhombuss]

Hi there everyone, seems like this is the most popular online forum for Mandolin-related discussions.

I come from a piano background, having completed my Conservatory diploma in piano performance. I've fiddled with an old guitar only very slightly, but it was many years ago so I doubt any knowledge would be applicable in this case. Having played piano all my life, I always wanted to learn a second instrument, preferably one that was more portable (but I guess you can't get much less portable than a piano, eh?) I was kind of split between violin and the Chinese pipa for a long time, but after hearing some music by Nickel Creek, the mandolin started to appeal to me. I was hoping those of you quite knowledgable could give me some advice here:

1. Type of mandolin, I've been looking up the net a bit on mandolin resources, primarily on varying types. I understand the difference between an 'F' and 'A' type, and that 'F's are geared towards American bluegrass while 'A's are geared towards acoustic and classical styles. I was leaning towards the 'A' style, unless someone can tell me otherwise.

2. Hole type, either 5 (F-shaped) or 4 (oval-shaped). Should I be siding with one over the other, or is this strictly preference?

3. Buying a mandolin. Like with all instruments, you pretty much get what you pay for. I've been eyeing the Eastman MD505, selling at the Mando Shop for about $600. For my purposes, it's obvious pointless to shell out upwards of $2K for one of the more expensive Weber models. But I'm hoping someone can tell me this Eastman MD505 (or others) in the sub-1000 range are still suitable if/when I become more proficient.

4. Maintenance. Having come from a piano background, my idea of maintenance was keeping liquids away from the piano and calling the tuner every 8 months. I always figured maintenance on these smaller instruments was more of a DIY thing than anything else. I accompanied a lot of violin soloists, and I know their strings and bowstrings are very expensive. Not that "financing" of a mandolin should really be a concern when I start, but wanted to get this clarified so there aren't surprises down the road.

Advice is greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!

[Elliot Luber]

If you search this site, there's a lot of information up there already. 1) As and Fs sound about the same, both are good for American Bluegrass, but traditionalists feel you need the F. 2) The hole makes a big difference, F gives you more concentrated sound while Oval holes give a more subtle, dispersed sound, so if you're into playing bluegrass with a banjo player, you might prefer an F. Of course Andy Statman's an amazing Bluegrass player, and he uses an A with an over Hole, so there are no absolutes here. Listen to the various types at a good store and narrow the field. I have an Eastman 605 and I love it. Other great starter instruments in that range are Big Muddy mandolins (oval As) which used to be called MidMissouri. If you go to FolkoftheWoods.com you can hear a lot of mandolins sampled, though it's not a definitive comparison. If you search the site for Maintenance, there are some great links. Basically, keep it clean, out of the sun, and don't let it get too hot, cold, wet or dry. Many feel it's the trasition that cracks mandos. I'll let others chime in.

[JeffD]

It is my opinion that Eastman is of a good enough quality that you will enjoy playing it even when your playing demands a better instrument. The style of mandolin you pick is more of a personal choice - and considering the ravages of MAS you will soon own one or more of every style anyway.

Please don't overlook the bowlback. They are great fun, just as rewarding as the A and F style.

Regarding maintenance - the only thing I do myself is tuning and string changing - everything else, set up, fret work, neck and bridge adjustment, cleaning, etc. I leave to the professionals.

Regarding keeping liquids away - just be sure to pour the rain water out of your mandolin as soon as you get in
under the tent fly.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Welcome.

[Rhombuss]

Thanks for the comments so far guys. Unfortunately, I'm in Toronto and I would imagine the mandolin player base here is somewhat limited, compared to the more prevalent areas in the US. I'm definitely going to have to search around locally for luthiers that I would trust to do the work. Is there much "adjustment" required besides tuning after the manufacturer's initial setup?

[Bill Snyder]

Is there much "adjustment" required besides tuning after the manufacturer's initial setup?
Eastmans may be better than some of the other factory instruments in regards to setup but be foreworned that most factory mandolins need the setup tweaked quite a bit upon receipt.

[John Flynn]

I come from a piano background, having completed my Conservatory diploma in piano performance.
Well, that's a major handicap, but if you work really hard, you may be able to overcome it! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Jim Garber]

Having come from a piano background, my idea of maintenance was keeping liquids away from the piano and calling the tuner every 8 months.
Very similar: keep liquids away from the mandolin and tune it every 8 minutes. YMMV. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Jim

[Fliss]

Welcome to the forum, Rhombus! The Eastman sounds like a great choice. As has already been said, you will surely get bitten by MAS (Mandolin Acquisition Syndrome - the compulsion that makes you want to go out and buy more mandolins!) so it will probably just be the first of many http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif After all, they don't take up as much space as pianos!

Maintenance - I'd suggest wiping the strings with a soft dry cloth after playing, and it's also a good idea to wipe the whole mandolin with the same cloth to keep it from collecting dust. Frets.com is a great resource you can visit where you can find information about maintenance.

Fliss

[bradeinhorn]

i'd be careful with the eastman oval holes. i find them to be very soft and tinny. if you go that route, i'd consider either getting a new big muddy -www.mandoweb.com has some nice ones they will gladly play over the phone - or think about buying an old gibson a. andy statman, by the way, the last few times i have seen him, is now playing an f-holed mandolin (a kimble for those interested). you too, might find that an f-holed instrument will be more versatile. chris thile of nickel creek, who entranced you, and millions others also plays an F-5. In the sub 1000 range, however, i'd buy the nicest A-5 (a style body with f-holes) i could find. others here will most certainly agree.

[Daniel Nestlerode]

1) "F" and "A" are just outline shapes. #Some folks are convinced those shapes have subtle but different tonal qualities, some are convinced they don't. #As a beginner in the mandolin world, you probably won't be able to hear a difference (If there is one). #So "F" or "A" shouldn't make a difference there. #Though"A" mandolins are uniformly less expensive.

2) Two factors are much more important to tone. #"F" holes versus oval holes, and flat top versus carved/arched top. #"F" holes are associated almost exclusively with carved/arched tops, and these models usually have a midrange heavy "bark". #Lots of attack and a quick decay, not a lot of sustain.

Oval holed mandolins are split pretty evenly n my experience between arched/carved top and flat top. #In comarison to the arched/carved with "F" holes, these mandolins are sweeter sounding, have more sustain (flat tops have maybe a little more sustain than arched/carved tops here), and don't cut through the sonic fields of other intruments as well. #They were/are used more in mandolin ensemble playing, celtic music, old-timey music, classical, and/or jazz.

The mandolins in this latter group are the ones you're most likely going to gravitate toward as a beginner on a budget. #This is the "best bang for the buck" category. #Don't ignore the bowlback (as has already been stated), good ones are sweeter still than carved/arched or flat top mandolins.

3) If you want less of a Bluegrass tone, don't get a carved/arched top mandolin with F holes. #Get a mandolin with an oval hole. #Flat top of carved won't matter too much.

4) You'll need to know how to tune it. #[Not trying to insult you there, just noting the vast differnce in practice between pianos and every other stringed instrument. #Mandolins, etc. go out of tune much faster than pianos and are easier to tune, so hiring someone to do it for you will be more inconvenient than doing it yourself.] #You'll need to change the strings when they die. #You'll want to polish the instrument clean of fingerprints, etc once in a while. #You'll want to know how to intonate the mandolin in case the bridge shifts out of place.

Strings aren't too expensive. Picks aren't either. #Though you CAN spend a lot of money on these things if you try.

HTH,
Daniel

[Elliot Luber]

I agree with Braidenhorn. Get an Eastman F or a Big Muddy O, but you're not going wrong with anything that sounds good to you and is set-up correctly. My Eastman was great out of the box from The Mandolin Store. Arrived nearly in tune after a thousand mile truck ride. You have a musical background, so trust your ears.

[Rhombuss]

Appreciate the advice, guys. I think Jeff and Daniel have persuaded me to go the bowlback route. It seems these are mostly Italian style mandolins and lend themselves well to Baroque music (and other classical forms). Unfortunately, all the online stores I've visited only sell the A and F types. Is there a reputable dealer/manufacturer out there that I can trust with a bowlback? I've seen a LOT on Ebay, but like most things on there YMMV, and I wouldn't want to cheap out and get a piece of trash.

One thing about the bowlbacks, however. I noticed the "bowl" is quite deep on these mandolins, compared to the F and A styled bodies. Are they awkward to hold, because of the protrusion towards your chest/stomach when you play them? It seems they're almost twice as "thick" as other types of mandolins.

Tuning shouldn't be a problem, I have good relative pitch and was able to tune both the violin and guitar I possessed, but never played http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif. I've always been fascinated with stringed instruments (acoustic guitars primarily) where changing the tuning facilitates ease of playing songs in varying keys. There'll be a learning curve for me, since I'm used to a "what you see is what you get" kind of instrument.

[Daniel Nestlerode]

Rhombuss,
Good bowlbacks a re little harder to find thhan good A models, but keep your eyes open. They are usually stocked by shops/web sites that deal with classical instruments. So visit that portion of the message board and ask around for reputable brands and dealers. You'll likely want to buy a used one, Martin amde some good bowlbacks prior to the 1930's and they're reasonably priced when you can find them. (Rule of thumb: more ribs in the bowl = higher price.)

The bowl itself is not easy to hold in a standing position, so you'll need to get comfortable with it. Start in a seated position.

Good luck!
Daniel

[Travis Finch]

Rhombuss,

Excited to hear that you are interested in playing a Neapolitan or Roman style mandolin. For some info on gear, check out www.alisonstephens.com. She has a pretty useful section on her site for all things equipment. She teaches classical mandolin over here at Trinity College of Music, London, is a great player and can be very helpful for those who need some info. (I must admit that I may be biased on this as I am one of her students...)

Unfortunately, as others have said, getting a good mandolin can be a little tough. All I can say is play as many as you can possibly get your hands on.

I started out playing classical on an oval-hole "A" style and by using the right string combination, managed to get a pretty nice, mellow tone that suited the pieces that I was working up. There are a fair number of professional-level performers who play classical on carved-back mandolins (F, A or hybrid style mandolins). I now play mainly on a Roman-style "bowlback" mandolin.

Depending on your budget, you can get a decent new mandolin for around 1-3,000 USD or so. Used can vary from a few hundred to much, much higher. For used instruments, I HIGHLY recommend against buying one over the internet that you have not played. There is an enormous variation in quality out there and it is far too easy to get an unplayable piece of junk.

As for names of makers to look for, Washburn did make a fair number of fairly nice models at the beginning of the 20th century, and some have held up fairly well. These also tend to be a bit more affordable.

If you can spend a bit more, keep your eye out for Calace's and Pecoraro's stuff (I have managed to get my hands on one of each and they have very individual and distinct sounds-the pecoraro is by far my fav) and if you find an Embergher at a reasonable price, please feel free to notify me as soon as possible. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

If you would like to track down a newly built mandolin, I have heard some good things about the Italian builder, Pandini. There are also a number of fairly good builders out of Germany as well. You can find links for all of these folks in the "Builders" section of this site. From what I've seen and heard, the Italian-built mandolins tend to be a little more crisp and bright while the German-built tend to be a little warmer and darker. That bieng said, I do have a German built mandolin that is the brightest Neapolitan I have ever heard...it can really depend. Again, play it first if you can.



Those are the ones that I can personally recommend, hopefully there will be others on the forum who can give you some more ideas for what to look out for. Good luck!

[Rhombuss]

I've done a bit of looking around, and have found some builders mainly in Italy. Haven't yet inquired on the prices for restored/new models, but I'm getting the impression they're upwards of 1000 Euros on average. Taking a small step back, I think as someone who hasn't even laid hands on a mandolin before (I've checked some of the local music stores and they don't sell mandolins), it's hard to justify forking over that much.

Out of curiosity, I did check Ebay and found this auction:
<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Beautiful-Weymann-Bowlback-Bowl-Back-Mandolin_W0QQitemZ140119472475QQihZ004QQcategoryZ1 017
9QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotoho sting" target="_blank">http://cgi.ebay.com/Beautif....hosting</a>

It's a Weymann bowlback, and appears to be in good condition. Assuming the final price doesn't stray too far from the current price, what would your opinions be on this purchase? It's definitely not an authentic Italian Neapolitan mandolin, but I figure from the standpoint of a new player, it might be an ideal starting point. At least something that will let me determine whether or not I wish to take playing the mandolin more seriously, and in the event that I do, I'll be in a much better position to know what more expensive unit to buy.

[bluegrassrulz]

To be honest with you, A styles are in the minority in bluegrass music but you can typically get better a mandolin for a cheaper price when buying an A because you're not paying for the intricacy of the scroll and other work of an F style. Tim O'Brien uses A styles, Buzz Buzzby used one back in the day, and you'll see an occasional other musician using one. Eastman is making pretty good low priced ones nowadays. I've got a laura Ratcliff A which is really pretty solid for the price. In an A style I look for a goooooood chop and good melodic capabilities. No frills means less bills.

[bradeinhorn]

as to that weymann- i'd be careful of all instruments with top cracks. bad sign. pretty though.

[Greg H.]

There are good reputable shops in the US for neapolitan mandolins (they're just harder to find). I think one of the best would be bernunzio (http://www.bernunzio.com/inventory.php) They have a number of instruments that might interest you and the knowledge to provide good guidance in choosing the right instrument. Another good source would be Vintage Instruments (http://www.vintage-instruments.com/navigate/catidx7.htm) in Philidelphia. I'm sure there are a number of other excellent sites but these two come to mind.

[Got8Strings]

I play a bowlback and it is not difficult to hold it. Perhaps it helps that I am skinny. Not sure how easy it would be if I had a bowl front http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[FHamilton]

Hey all. This is my first post on Mando cafe,
I'm still a beginner at the Mandolin, but I am thinking of upgrading from my $100 made in China Johnson Mandolin to something with, well, proper intonation. I want to keep it around $700 or under if possible (F-style). #Should I be looking at hand-made mandos or are they out of my price range? production line then? If anyone has any suggestions on brands or the like, that would be much appreciated.javascript:%20InstaSmilie()

also, is anyone going to be at Grey Fox this summer?

Thanks in advance for any input, I've already learned so much.

--Fletcher

[Rhombuss]

Just an update for those who provided me with advice. I ended up purchasing a Lyon and Healy circa 1900's Neapolitan. It's apparently in excellent condition, and setup with Calace strings. Can't wait - I'll report back when it arrives http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif.

[Fliss]

Congrats on your new mando http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif I'll look forward to seeing your report and pictures!

Fliss

[JeffD]

Just an update for those who provided me with advice. #I ended up purchasing a Lyon and Healy circa 1900's Neapolitan. #It's apparently in excellent condition, and setup with Calace strings. #Can't wait - I'll report back when it arrives http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif.
Woo hoo. Post some pictures. That sounds great.