A2z-record price

[Rich Michaud]

I just finished bidding on EBAY on David McLaughlin's A2Z-but another lucky buyer bought it for $8400.00-that is the highest price I know of for an A2Z Loar era mando. #Anybody want to sell me their A2Z? #I have a couple and love them-so do other people apparently. #Rich

[MML]

Wow, I was thinking of selling mine for 3900 bucks recently. Not any more....

[sgarrity]

Let's see if he actually gets paid for it. That buyer must have a lot more money than.....I'll let you fill in the blank.

Shaun

[stevem]

$8,400--WOW. I was looking at one around 3 years ago for $3,300, but my wife said no. I'll have to point this out to her. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[uncle ken]

I think if he had just made an anonymous listing of an A2z the price would have been much lower. If you read the story, (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330103098638&ssPageName=ADME:B:WNA:US:12) #he did a great job of selling it. He even attributed Bill Monroe in there.

[Jonathan Peck]

Yes, I have to agree. The story was artful. I would have to attribute the high price to provedance. He talked it up pretty good. It's like art...it's not the picture, it's the story.

-jonathan

[Darryl Wolfe]

I believe this is a record price for any A model, including the A-5. (Because the A-5 has not changed hands in so many years). Some A-4's with virzi have sold in the $7xxx range before, but I do not remember anything $8K plus.

[MikeEdgerton]

"Not only will this be the best oval-hole Gibson you've ever played, but this mandolin also smells scrumptious!"

I have to remember that line for my next auction. That has to be the reason for the record price.

[SternART]

Looks like voodoocowboy bought another snakehead recently too.....

[danb]

I believe this is a record price for any A model, including the A-5. (Because the A-5 has not changed hands in so many years). Some A-4's with virzi have sold in the $7xxx range before, but I do not remember anything $8K plus.
Yes, I can confirm the $7200 for the A4-virzi http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[OregonMike]

Wow, and to think I passed on one for $5000 last Fall - I just couldn't see spending the extra $2000 to upgrade from my A-1 Snakehead that has everything but the double sound hole ring and inlay.

Looks like a little bidding war here helped push that price up. There are days when you can sell a dollar bill on eBay for $1.50 if you hype it enough.

[danb]

A2zs are nice, but they don't really hold a serious crown for tone among the snakeheads IMO. I think David's provenance on this mandolin plus his personal and professional endorsement of it were what made it what it is. Well done to David, and I'm sure it was very hard to part with it!

[uncle ken]

In the description he attributes the sound to a one piece back. My plain A snakehead also has a one piece birch back. I haven't played enough of these to know if there is a difference in sound between the A2z and plain A. If the tops and backs in the factory were the same back then and the only difference is the trim, I would think you could get the same sound from the A or A-1 if the sound is all you really care about.

[Rich Michaud]

Dan-what does hold the serious crown among Snakeheads? Although I have a couple A4 Snakeheads and a couple of A2Zs, I believe the tone differential is more with the particular instrument than the type of snakehead. What's your view? Rich

[SternART]

I've seen a LOT of variance in the sound of these, having owned several in the past.
I found my A-4's edged out some simpler ones. A friend has a plain A-1 Snakehead that
is exceptional...beat up & played in, but great tone...they vary.

[danb]

Dan-what does hold the serious crown among Snakeheads? Although I have a couple A4 Snakeheads and a couple of A2Zs, I believe the tone differential is more with the particular instrument than the type of snakehead. What's your view? Rich
My point exactly Rich, the magic tone seems to come up just as often at any model. I personally have had really good luck with early brown finish snakehead As in the 71200-72000 range

[Mandobar]

personally, i would have paid the $8k for the andy statman f4 that larry wexer sold a week ago. unfortunately i was a bit too late on pulling the trigger.

several weeks ago i was bidding on something on ebay and was outbid. i saw the instrument again listed in the classifieds as the ebay winner had "financial problems" and was not able to complete the transaction. hopefully this will not be the case on this one, but at that price one has to wonder.

[Big Joe]

David's mandolin was a very good one and he did enjoy it. I am surpised he sold it. Anyway, I guess it is worth what someone is willing to pay. It was a good example though.

[Darryl Wolfe]

I agree that any model snake can yield an exceptional sounding instrument. I can also give these observations which are similar to Dans. These are generalities that I have noted

1) - Some of the best sounding snake A's (all models) tend to be the earlier brown '22 and '23's. These tend to have a bassier open complex tone.

2) Every A2z I have played was very very good. Why? I do not know. These are usually brighter and harder sounding than case no. 1 above. They have a stiffer feel that you can drive hard. Note that most every A2z is a mid to late 24.

3) - A4's - these are usually different. More like an A2z than a brown snake. These are usually not quite as loud as an A2z, but have a more refined tone. Those with a virzi have a more complex sound on top of it.

4) Post Loar '25 snakes (all). These have an A2z type of sound, very loud and hard, impressive sound but the tone is very different. They have a sitka/cardboard very unrefined tone. This is a bit like the difference in 40's Martin and 50's Martin guitars

Generalities boys, generalities.

[danb]

Ah yes, Darryl's right- the post-loar truss rod mandolins (paddle head too) have a certain loudness to them in my experience too.

[Ken Waltham]

I would agree completely with all of Darryl's statements.
Why these theings are so, such as the A2Z phenom, I have no clue.
Personally, I have had 4 of these 1923 A's, Sheraton Brown, with tortise binding on the back...
I have found them all to be really good. Fluke? I have no idea.

[uncle ken]

I think this message board helped hype up the A2z over the last couple of years. I know it was what got me interested. I ended up buying a plain A because of the price, but I'm not disappointed. I do miss having the dots on the side of the neck though. Mine sounded good right out of the case but after I used my bridge jig to fit the base a little tighter and then replaced the bridge top with one from Steve Smith the sound improved even more. It still sounded the same only much more of it if you know what I mean.

[Ken Waltham]

Yeah, I'm with you on that too, Ken. The hype thing.
As much as this is interesting, the sale that is, I feel it's way off the wall. Much like that f4 a year or so ago.

[David W McLaughlin]

The mandolin was shipped out immediately and the buyer had it in less that 24 hours from the end of the auction. I'm really gonna miss it. Forget what you think A models sound like. My A2Z is like no other. It is, in many cases, a Loar-crusher. The person who has it now agrees, and knew exactly what it was all about.

[f5loar]

Spoken by someone who knows all about Loars and crushers!
Whatever anyone else things me thinks my '23 F4 just went up in value!

[uncle ken]

David, are there any recordings out there with this one or perhaps a sound clip or two? I would really love to hear it.

[Bob A]

Hype or not, I have to agree thay A2Zs are loud instruments. The mystique of this model has been around for some time. I don't think it's just the Cafe that's put that about . . . I've had mine for more than a decade, and they were highly sought after for longer than that. Rarity may play a part, but I've not heard of any that were dogs.

FWIW, when I got mine I called Julius Bellson in Kalamazoo (aothor of "The Gibson Story", and a long-time employee of the company) to ask him about the model. So far as he was concerned, there was nothing particularly unique about the model, and he preferred his A4. So it goes. Whether the price was out of line is a question the market will have to answer, but I have no doubt that this sale has raised the bar for the model.

[John Rosett]

A nice A2Z sold for $6000 almost two years ago.

[mythicfish]

To cop a well-known phrase:

Mandolin: $8400
Buyer and seller satisfied: Priceless

Curt

[David W McLaughlin]

Hey, uncle ken...I do have quite a few cassette tapes and perhaps some old reel-to-reels of me playing it with the JMBs, and I have a bunch of scattered photos going back thirty + years. I just need to locate them. They are stored away somewhere.

[Mike Buesseler]

...but I've not heard of any that were dogs.

Not sure mine was a 'dog' exactly, but it didn't ring my bell. I bought it from the original owners, took it a music store in Seattle to get it appraised (both professionally and informally from one of the good 'players' there). No one was especially impressed, including me. Very nice playing instrument, but way short on 'mojo.' I traded it for a mandolin I liked better... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[Timbofood]

Having read the info on the instrument and doubting not a word, I must say...That is Selling "sizzle" like a Chicago steakhouse! Congratulations to both partys and I hope a fine picking session follows soon!

[Darryl Wolfe]

Well of course I am talking about two of my own instruments current, and one past here. #But, my brother visited this weekend and we gave some of my mandos a real workout. #The newly restored brown '23 snake floored him. #He had been used to playing my very very good '25 snake for that last few years and thought nothing could top it. #In his words about the '23, "a completely different tone and feel", "makes the other one sound like crxp"

I had an A2z quite a few years ago. #I did not sound like either of my current snakes. #It was the best of both worlds

[uncle ken]

David, I saw you guys play about 15 years ago but I forgot what instrument you were using at the time. I also have old cassettes and reels going back to the early 70's laying around. It would be nice to convert them all to digital one of these days before they completely rot away.

[mrmando]

A nice A2Z sold for $6000 almost two years ago.
$6600, I think, and it wasn't even set up! It was here in Seattle and I went and checked it out before it sold. Had come down from the attic with old cruddy strings. The seller didn't want me to restring it or even really try to bring it up to pitch, but I did get half of it sort of into tune (that is to say, two unison pairs a fifth apart, even if they were about a whole step flat) and got some very promising tone out of it.

My friend Sue has said she'll leave me her A2Z when she dies. Not that I'm hoping she'll die soon, but it IS a nice instrument...

[squirrelabama]

I love mine! I'll sell it for $8401.50. Oh, and by the way, mine smells even better than a Loar. Just kidding. These are truly magnificent instruments. -Geoff

[OregonMike]

Congratulations Geoff! Is that a nose print in the picture?

How long have you been hunting for one of these?

My second significant other is #76096 (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_mando.pl?3029) a 1924 A-1 Snakehead that was also built in Spring of 1924 as far as I can tell. (I still can't figure out why it has binding on the back too but is labeled A-1).

Enjoy, Mike

[MandoCowboy]

Another A2Z on Ebay. Do a search there, not sure how to do a link.

[mrmando]

'Tis here (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320101488390)

[Jim Garber]

Another A2Z on Ebay. #
That belongs to a friend of mine who is also obsessed with these. He has more than one, in any case. That one is a very nice one as are most of them.

Jim

[OregonMike]

Wow, that's another sweet one - I have never seen the actual A2-Z stamp. Are those MOP tuners original?

[Glassweb]

The tuners are certainly original... and very rare and desireable!

[danb]

Yes, we had a chat about those tuners a while back here. I couldn't believe it at first but they are the real deal, a very cool added touch. Interesting is that they are the late '24/ early '25 style plates. I've seen a few other oddball tuners (some gold plating or shiny polished brass plates on old 3-pointers too!) over the years, but aren't those just especially cool? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Glassweb]

My friend and mandolin guru Adam told me last night about an A4 snake he saw once... natural blonde (ala A2z) top and silver-plated, pearl button tuners. Now THAT would be one to see... or play... or have!!

[Darryl Wolfe]

I believe we have seen more than one A2Z with the pearl tuners. I remember a small time dealer at guitar shows that had 2 NOS gold sets. I was too stupid to buy them because he wanted about $100 a set for them when wriggle ends and arrow ends were bringing $40 or $50

[Glassweb]

Yep Darryl... I'd like to be 16 again (with a bit of money) and know what I know now...

[Ken Waltham]

I know of another A4, red colour, that had Loar style pearl button, fluer dis lis end tuners.
I had an A2Z one time with tuners as the one shown, but, ivoroid buttons. Go figure..

[danb]

The especially interesting thing to me is that these plates are the "bump end" ones, not arrow-ends.. the arrow-end ones were easy to explain away as loar-spec stock. I'm struggling to remember if there are any Loar sets with pearl buttons, silver plating, and those bump-end plates.. I believe they are all wiggle end ('22) or arrow-end (23, 24). My ex-snake virzi A4 was 81564, and had the bump-end plates.

The ones that can accept pearl buttons must have been an upgrade/added cost at the time, and hence were used sparingly on the Loars etc. Adds to the mojo factor!

[Darryl Wolfe]

Dan, I believe you will find that the Loar tuners "went gold" before the introduction of the bump ends. All of the bump end style 5 tuners I have seen are gold. We do have one bump end tuner Loar documented

[danb]

Always odd when there is only one..

F5 79719
http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/79719_tuners.jpg

Though I do list 5 instruments in the archive with earlier serials that have the same plate style:
| 78977 | A2Z |
| 78974 | A2Z |
| 78751 | A |
| 78532 | F4 |
| 77335 | A1 |

[danb]

That said- if the bump end ones coincide with gold plating on the style 5 hardware, how did these happen to get made? I wonder if they were ordered in small runs? I guess what I'm getting at is that these are associated with 1925 instruments predominantly, when the style 5's had gold hardware..and I always figured that "style 5 tuners" on a different instrument were more a fluke of "Well that's all we have around", wheras we now have a couple data points of pearl buttons on A2zs. Another insignificant Gibson nuance, but still interesting to me *why*

[Ken Waltham]

And, to be picky... the arrow end tuners, plated gold, were on the F5's until 1927.
They are identical to the Loar tuners, but, gold plated.
The bump end tuners appear in '28/29 on the F5's....
Again, perhaps using up old stock, howbeit with a new look. ( gold)

[danb]

Well the interesting theory on that Loar would be perhaps it was drilled and set up with tuners sometime after '24. It's pretty clear that the Loars hadn't all left the building by the time Lloyd got his pink slip.. but how much later could they have gone?

[Darryl Wolfe]

Ken is absolutely right about the arrow end gold tuners. They remained for a number of years for the Style 5 while they completely dissapeared on everything else by 1925.

Another oddity is the existance of any Gold bump end A-models tuners like I mentioned. Anyone ever see gold parts on any a-model??

We've hijacked this pretty well, but it's sort of relative.

[Ken Waltham]

I have never seen any gold plated tuners, or parts, on what I consider the "classic" Gibson period. let's say, from the first decade to 1929.
Maybe in the 30's or 40's, but, again, I've never seen any.
As stated earlier, a couple of silver plated, classic Loar types, but, no gold.

[danb]

Well there are quite a few that match that. Have a look through these- some have an apparent "Refurbish" or "later release from the factory" story to tell (as we've discussed in other threads, I lean towards the "brought back for refurbishment/resale" theory myself!), but I don't think they all do:

These all have the phrase "gold hardware" in the description

+--------+-------+---------------+------+
| serial | model | signature | year |
+--------+-------+---------------+------+
| 71057 | F5 | Lloyd Loar | 1924 |
| 71629 | F5 | Lloyd Loar | 1922 |
| 73011 | F5 | Lloyd Loar | 1923 |
| 73670 | F5 | Unsigned Loar | 1923 |
| 73676 | F5 | Lloyd Loar | 1923 |
| 73749 | F5 | Lloyd Loar | 1923 |
| 73752 | F5 | Lloyd Loar | 1923 |
| 75315 | F5 | Lloyd Loar | 1924 |
| 76490 | H5 | Lloyd Loar | 1924 |
| 76497 | L5 | Lloyd Loar | 1924 |
| 76546 | F5 | Lloyd Loar | 1924 |
| 76555 | F5 | Lloyd Loar | 1924 |
| 76787 | F5 | Lloyd Loar | 1924 |
| 76967 | H5 | Lloyd Loar | 1924 |
| 76969 | H5 | Lloyd Loar | 1924 |
| 79834 | F5 | Lloyd Loar | 1924 |
+--------+-------+---------------+------+

[Glassweb]

There must be an answer as to why the A2z on Ebay with the pearl buttons only brought $4,650, but I don't have one!

[Ken Waltham]

I really think that's the real price of one of those. I actually forgot to bid on it, but, I think those tuners were really cool.

Oh, Dan, we were talking about A style gold hardware... all the things you show are Style 5's....

[Brian Aldridge]

did anyone see that A4 snakehead with virzi Mitch had on ebay? It was snapped up pretty quick at just under 8k with buy it now. Has those amber buttoned arrow end tuners.

[Glassweb]

I don't know... I just can't understand how a week ago an A2z sells for twice as much as this one which, to me, is way more desireable with those tuners. Unless there was something going on with the instrument???

[uncle ken]

Buying a vintage instrument can be an emotional experience. If you compare the text of the two auctions the first one far out shined this one.

[Glassweb]

You're right on that one... still, I think someone got a hell of a deal!

[danb]

I don't know... I just can't understand how a week ago an A2z sells for twice as much as this one which, to me, is way more desireable with those tuners. Unless there was something going on with the instrument???
Well I think the first one was David McLaughlin's, and had a pretty decent pedigree of being played by the greatest of the great in that sense.

Could be that folks wanted *that one* vs "a good clean a2z".

I've experienced this directly, a known instrument that has been recorded etc is much more known to the audience, in that sense the stuff the seller played on it or who they played with is often an antidote to the fear that it is an unknown quantity.

When I borrowed Jack's Loar, for instance- I knew that if it sounded bad I was doing something wrong or it needed set-up work. Not always so with a roll of the dice on ebay! I actually learned to be more finicky about setup after a visit to Steve's place and seeing what a perfectly set-up vintage piece felt like http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Still yes, a wonderful snakehead. I'm certain the buyer is thrilled! I too would have loved to have gotten that one, but the time wasn't right for me either.

[Glassweb]

Actually I forgot that the other A2z was Dave's; he and it are/were definitely held in the highest regard. And so it goes... those snakeheads are really fantastic mandolins!

[squirrelabama]

I was wondering if Dan and Darryl could lend their deductive statistical talents to this thread in attempt to derive how many A2Z's were ever made?? Weren't they only made during '24? I'd be curious to know.- Geoff:O

[Darryl Wolfe]

As the lucky dog chimes in. It is very hard to deduce. My guess is less than 100. There is at least 1 1923 A2Z, by far most are mid-late '24

[squirrelabama]

It is quite the instrument. Better photos than what ebanjay had soon. It is in 9 out of 10 condition, which means I get the pleasure of breaking it in! Time capsule! Tuners are stiff, but hold tune VERY well. -geoff:D

[mythicfish]

"Tuners are stiff, but hold tune VERY well."

Thirty minutes clean/lube will free them up.

Curt

[racuda]

I didn't know how lucky I was when I bought this (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_mando.pl?2797) one for $1800 about three years ago. It was a one-owner instrument, found and ebay-ed thirty years after she died.

Mine "smells scrumptious" too. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[carleshicks]

I would say you did pretty well.

[Matt Bowe]

Speaking of 1923 A2Zs...
If you had an oval hole snakehead instrument with MOP "The Gibson" inlaid in the peghead,arrow end tuners, 2 bwbwb inlaid soundhole rings, black inside white top binding, white binding on the back, adjustable bridge, FON 11971 stamped on the endblock and 74753 pencilled on the "Guaranteed" Gibson label with no legible model number and appears directly superimposed over [U]another "Guaranteed" Gibson label and all apparently refinished by Gibson (according to the guy I bought it from on Staten Island) in a burst, what would YOU say it was?

[MML]

The white top bindidng with the black line is one of the trademarks of the A2-Z. The thin black line really stood out against the natural top. Sounds to me like yours has all the features of a true A2-z, post some pics.

[danb]

Mandophilius: that FON matches 3 A2zs I have on record, so I agree with what Mike says. You have a refinished A2z.

[JeffD]

Yep Darryl... I'd like to be 16 again (with a bit of money) and know what I know now...
I wish I did't know now what I didn't know then.

[Matt Bowe]

74753/11971

[Matt Bowe]

There's the black inside the white top binding.

[Darryl Wolfe]

Now that is an odd example. How is this mandolin labeled

[Matt Bowe]

Like this. If you squint, you should be able to read "74753" in pencil. What's odd is there appears to be two labels, one superimposed over the other.

[Matt Bowe]

There's the bass side for the double bound b/w top.

[Darryl Wolfe]

This mandolin is smack dab in the middle of a grouping of A2z's and as such is one. The double label is often seen on Gibsons where some degree of hold back work is done on it. Monroes had two labels.

The archive list this as refinished by Gibson in the 50's. Unless there is some proof, I would suggest it was much early than that

[mrmando]

It's a gawgeous sunburst, I think. Particularly on the back where it ain't all chewed up. Any thought of putting a pickguard on there?

Is the back of the headstock stamped with the serial number? Gibson did that on mid-century factory refins.

[Matt Bowe]

No stamp on the headstock which leads me to ask
is it possible this was finished in sunburst
at the time it was built, hence the double label?
The story about a '50's refinish was ventured as an explanation for the unusual color by the dealer.
(The only sunburst A2Z in existence?)
For a better view of the back see the "74753/11971"
posting in the "Post A Picture" section of the Message Board.
And here's a link to a '24 A4. Look similar in finish?

http://www.larkstreetmusic.com/list/pict/SNEAK.jpg

[squirrelabama]

Finally got around to snapping some pics of my A2z. I wanted to see if anyone had any insight as to the make of these tuners. They appear original, late '24ish, but perhaps this didn't get shipped until '25??

[squirrelabama]

full shot of tuners

[squirrelabama]

full frontal A2Z.............

[squirrelabama]

sorry about the reflection, but look at that grain!!! Yowza!

[squirrelabama]

fun shot....

[cooper4205]

she's a beauty, Geoff. is the finish and everything original on it? how's it sound compared to that F2(?)you got?

[OregonMike]

Geoff -

I'm afraid the only way to tell the story on those tuners is to leave it on the back porch like that and I'll come over and pick it up. Shouldn't take me more than a few years to get to the bottom of this...

Been meaning to get back to you and pick some but I've been trapped in the woodshed with my fiddle and have sworn not to come out until I can play.

That is one sweet Snakehead.

[squirrelabama]

"is the finish and everything original on it? how's it sound compared to that F2(?)you got?"

As far as I and others can tell, it is all original, and in outstanding condition. Kind of a time capsule...and I get to break it in! My 1917 F2 w maple back or my '24 F4? It is in about the same condition as my '24 F4, but believe it or not, It sounds better to me than the F4!!! Go figure...............

Mike, I wont be leaving this puppy on the porch too long, but you're sure welcome to come over anytime and do some pickin' on said porch!!

[danb]

Hey Squirrel, what's the serial on that one?

The tuners are silver-plate such as you'd see on a Loar K5 of that range, though I can't think of an example. A couple A2Zs got similar loar-style tuners with pearl buttons, very nice feature. That's quite a beauty, I'd guess serial is 79xxx or 80xxx ?

[squirrelabama]

Hi Dan, the serial # is 77659 and the FON is 11951. This one is on the Archieve, but the pics are small and blury. I'll be happy to send you these updated pics for updating?http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[danb]

77659? hmm, I don't have pictures for that one in the archive, is that the correct SN?

[Matt Bowe]

All of which goes to show why they are selling for record prices,
but who could part with such a beautiful thing? Just gorgeous.

[squirrelabama]

DAN- I was off by 1!! THE correct SERIAL# IS 77658. On the archieve are some pictures of it that dont even do this fine piece any justice. Sorry for the confusion. The FON I posted however is correct. -Geoff:D

[Darryl Wolfe]

I believe those are Waverly tuners. I've not seen a set like that silver with pearl before though

[squirrelabama]

Wow..... look at the asking prices of two A2Z's available today.... one here on the cafe for $6500, and one at Carmel Music for $6250. Holy smokes, that is nearly a 45% increase from last year's market price!!! Seems like each year the A2z's set "record" prices?? Could these prices be intended for non-US buyers residing in countries with currency stronger than the dollar? Interesting!

[Red Henry]

I'm not surprised that Squirrel's A-2Z sounds better than his contemporary F-4. I think that on the snakehead mandolins, Gibson (by accident or on purpose) brought together a combination of factors-- small peghead, often a very nice maple back and sides, and possibly on some examples a slightly shallower body-- which worked together with each other for an excellent sound. (Other construction factors might have done the same when combined, but Gibson just hit a good form here.)

My question is, if Gibson produced these excellent-sounding mandolins deliberately, why did they go back to the other peghead after 1925 or so? Was it just office politics, since L.Loar was gone?


Red.

[David Newton]

What a great question, Red.
From a building perspective, I think a snake head is a better and "easier" way to go, certainly does the job and looks great too.
Probably the traditionalists just won out.

[bradeinhorn]

My question is, if Gibson produced these excellent-sounding mandolins deliberately, why did they go back to the other peghead after 1925 or so? Was it just office politics, since L.Loar was gone?


Red.
i heard from someone at retrofret that it was kind of a spiteful move on the part of gibson to return to pre-loar peghead (and other) specs after LL left.

[Glassweb]

Actually, the wood used for the back and sides of the snakeheads was birchwood. It sometimes can possess a pattern similar to maple, but I can't ever recall seeing one that was actually made with maple. The maple seemed to go to the F4s and F5s while most A models and F2s got the birch. No doubt there are exceptions though...

[Gail Hester]

The ribs on a snakehead are 1 1/2 inches and 1 3/8 inches on an F4 (same as an F5) so actually a snake is thicker. I atribute the great sound on those instruments to a somewhat radical change in graduations that Gibson made during the Loar era. I've also found many of the Birch instruments sound just as good as the better looking Maple ones.

[Jonathan Peck]

"For A-styles, several changes took place (during the Loar period), although they existed on paper prior to Loar’s affiliation with Gibson and were not his designs. One was the adoption of the so-called snakehead headstock, narrower at the far end than at the nut. This provided a straighter path for strings from the tuner shafts through the nut grooves."

[Glassweb]

I agree with Gail regarding radical changes that appeared with the Snakes. I've owned and played many Snakes, and they've all been superb... in fact the brown and blonde A2s and A2zs have been at the top of the pile in my book. Really quite a different instrument than the paddlehead A-models that preceded them... 'tis a shame LL left the premises so soon...

[Jonathan Peck]

My question is, if Gibson produced these excellent-sounding mandolins deliberately, why did they go back to the other peghead after 1925 or so? Was it just office politics, since L.Loar was gone?


Red.
I believe that Loar was an absolute perfectionist. While some of the design changes might be attributed to Loar era instruments bein better, it might be the careful attention to graduations that made the difference consistent in every level of of the mandolin - from student grade to professional.

also

"after Loar (and Lew Williams) left, Gibson management was primarily the responsibility of financial, rather than musical, experts – the dreaded bean-counters. In the case of Guy Hart, who ran the company from 1924 to 1948, contemporaries describe him as being hated by workers and eroding morale. This isn’t the best formula for quality control. So, post-Loar quality control very well could have declined or become more variable."

[Gail Hester]

There was another thread that I can’t find where Darryl presented several examples of the changing logo during the snakehead production. It has been presumed that they went back to the paddle head shape because they could not arrive at a production logo design that would fit the slimmer peghead and most of them extended into the bushings.

[uncle ken]

It may just be personal preference, but I prefer the sound of the F4 from the same era better. They seem to have more color in the tone from top to bottom but I'm sure there are plenty of exceptions, I haven't gotten to play them all yet.

[MML]

I choose a 24 A1 over my 23 A2-Z in tone. The A2-z was great but my A1 is AWSOME!
and more afordable

[squirrelabama]

Can anyone shed light on the recent price jump on these?

[atetone]

I think it is a combination of relative rarity and good reviews.
Not so long ago when you could get one for $3000 you could have a highly desirable, and highly acclaimed mandolin for a relatively reasonable price.
At the current pricing levels they have now entered a different bracket which I think is being carried along by momentum, but I don't think that they will be dropping too much in price.
The bar has been set once again.

[Darryl Wolfe]

There was another thread that I can’t find where Darryl presented several examples of the changing logo during the snakehead production. #It has been presumed that they went back to the paddle head shape because they could not arrive at a production logo design that would fit the slimmer peghead and most of them extended into the bushings.
Yes, that is my opinion. You have to admit, the one on the left is ugly from a Corporate perspective. The one on the right has a logo that you seldom ever see. I doubt they inlaid more than 50 instruments (of any style) with it before returning to the paddle head

[Glassweb]

Sad to think that it may have been nothing more than an inlay dilemma that led to the extinction of the "snakes"... oh cruel world!

So ... aside from the added appointments, what's the attraction?

[Gail Hester]

“So ... aside from the added appointments, what's the attraction?”

In my opinion, better string angle, more consistent/ refined and thinner graduations all leading to a group of mandolins that were louder, punchier, more focused than their predecessors and most of them have a good chop making them a very versatile mandolin.

[Darryl Wolfe]

Right on the mark Ms Gail

[Darryl Wolfe]

We should probably switch threads here,

But, in support of my theory..a post showing the rare inlay pattern in a normal "playing" angle. #Likely the only snake pattern that holds up to This Test for balance and Corporate advertising needs of that era

[Darryl Wolfe]

Has no one other than myself ever wondered why it (The Gibson) is at an angle to begin with?http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif?http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif?

Let's not forget that they went to straight across in 1930

[mandolooter]

I would think from your last pic that that is the reason...nice and easy to read from the audience when watching the band. Back before amps people sat a little closer I bet. Marketing?

[racuda]

Has no one other than myself ever wondered why it (The Gibson) is at an angle to begin with?http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif?http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif?

Let's not forget that they went to straight across in 1930
When held in a typical playing position, the logo orientation becomes horizontal!

[Matt Bowe]

Looks like maple to me...

<“So ... aside from the added appointments, what's the attraction?”

In my opinion, better string angle, more consistent/ refined and thinner graduations all leading to a group of mandolins that were louder, punchier, more focused than their predecessors and most of them have a good chop making them a very versatile mandolin.>

Sorry for the lack of specificity ... What makes the A2Z more desirable than an A-1 from the same period ... besides the appointments?

<“So ... aside from the added appointments, what's the #attraction?”

In my opinion, better string angle, more consistent/ refined and thinner graduations all leading to a group of mandolins that were louder, punchier, more focused than their predecessors and most of them have a good chop making them a very versatile mandolin.>

Sorry for the lack of specificity ... What makes the A2Z more desirable than an A-1 from the same period (eg. 1923-25) ... besides the appointments?

[markishandsome]

I believe that the A2Z is simply rarer than the others. And I think that model designation was only used during the hallowed Loar era, in contrast with say the A4, which was made before and after Loar. Not very compelling reasons to a player, but it really gets the collectors fired up.

[Red Henry]

I believe I've seen two A-Juniors that had nice curly maple backs. In one case, though, Gibson finished the instrument so dark that you couldn't see the curl except under direct sunlight!

One of those mandolins is in Gainesville, Florida now.

There may be other A-models from the 20s (besides A-Juniors) that had maple back and sides, but I don't recall seeing any of them.

Red

[mandotool]

Came across this great old thread and thought to point out a few examples of
flame maple backed A-4 snakeheads..#75479,#77438 virzi,#75931
also birdseye maple back and sides on this A-Jr. #77041
A couple of these are on the Archive and a couple not..I'll post some photos when i can..
Interesting to note.....there are about the same number of Loar period A-4's snakes and A-2Z snakes in the Archive...50 or so each...

[Goodin]

oh how i long for an A-4 snake with virzi. I hope to have one at some point in my lifetime. Mandolin world heaquarters had a near mint A2Z that was super clean. i almost pulled the trigger but refinanced my house instead (gotta be smart with my $$ sometimes!).

There is an A-4 snake on ebay right now:

http://cgi.ebay.com/1924-GIBSON-A4-SNAKEHEAD-MANDOLIN-LLOYD-LOAR-PERIOD-/150509993346?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item230b183d82